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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2022 13:58:41 GMT -5
I’ve made no secret of the fact that I like it when heroes battle villains who are not their regular adversaries. As much as I like seeing Spidey go at it with Green Goblin, it’d be fun to see something like Spidey VS Mandarin, or Fantastic Four VS Juggernaut. At DC, I’d love to see something like the Titans versus Professor Zoom, or Superman VS Riddler. For me, it’s the novelty as much as anything, but also plot matters! How would Superman, not experienced in solving riddles, handle a trail left by the Riddler, especially if there were lives at stake? What strategy might Doctor Octopus use against Wolverine? Could the Thing possibly survive an encounter with the Abomination? But I’m conscious of the fact that you should never overdo any idea. We don’t want Acts of Vengeance every week, right? I thought of a questionnaire, and I’d appreciate any answers you may have. 1.) Do you think there are any villains who should remain restricted solely to one superhero? 2.) Would you like to see more “cross-pollination”? 3.) Do you think the current way of doing things (decompression, writing for the trade) prevents “cross-pollination” occurring? On that third question, which is a bit vague, here’s my thought: if Marvel is gonna tie up Cap and Red Skull for a 6-issue arc, then the chances of Red Skull showing up in an X-Men or Punisher comic is slim (I’m thinking editors might get protective of a certain villain). In an era before decompression, it might have been possible to have Kraven show up in a Daredevil comic - or the Joker plague Superman for one issue. But I feel that decompression/writing for the trade means that “villain swapping” might not be practical. As for question 1, I don’t believe any villain should remain restricted to solely one superhero (a friend of mine said he didn’t think Green Goblin should ever clash with anyone else). For starters, it’d be boring. Let’s see Kraven go after the Hulk, or Batman take on Cheetah. Also, law of averages would dictate that villains would come across heroes they’ve never met before, doubly so in New York City. I feel there’s a pretty good chance that Daredevil or Iron Man might happen to be passing by when Vulture or Electro decide to rob a bank. Oh, and this is my favourite “cross-pollination” issue ever:
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Post by DubipR on May 1, 2022 14:58:42 GMT -5
I loved when Mark Waid used Ra's Al Ghul as the villain in JLA: Tower of Babel in 2000. In 30 years since the inception of the character, no one else ever used him outside the Batman universe? He's a eco-terrorist and should be treated as a global threat instead of a Batman-centric character. It was brilliantly written that he took down the JLA using Batman against them. Why wasn't that used prior? He should be in other characters books. In all the millennia Themyscira has been around, Hippolyta or Wonder Woman has faced off against him? Seems like a no-brainer.
Villains should cross-pollinate if they're on the run and land elsewhere. Just makes sense rather than having same old fights for 80 years. It makes for interesting comics.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 1, 2022 16:37:02 GMT -5
!.) I think the villains who are the mirror of the hero should be pretty much left to that hero. I don't necessarily mean the Reverse Flash; but their true opposite number, like the Joker. Joker doesn't mix well with other worlds. He has been used with others; but, the end results are usually less satisfying than when he faces Batman. John Byrne threw him in against Superman to basically show he wasn't as big of a threat to him, as he sets up a puzzle, using a fallacy of thinking where lead shielding occurs, to have Superman demonstrate that it made it easier to rescue the person in question since the lead shielding was easier to spot. Similarly, I don't think Joker mixes well with other villains and the times he has it hasn't worked, for me.
2.) I don't mind villains facing other heroes, as long as they are competitive with them. If they are just being thrown in to be squashed by the hero, it doesn't make the hero look any better, especially if that character is shown to be subordinate to the other hero, like Batman. If Blue Beetle easily takes down the Joker or Riddler and Batman struggles, how does that make Batman look? If Batman still is seen to outclass Beetle, then the defeat of the villain carries no weight and looks like a fluke.
Sometimes, introducing a villain to a new hero actually improves things. Kingpin had been exclusively a Spider-Man foe. However, once he was put up against Daredevil, with DD treated in a more serious crime story fashion (rather than swashbuckling wise-cracker), the Kingpin rose in stature. He truly became the Kingpin of New York Crime.
Sometimes, the villain can be an interesting mercenary type, who acts for another foe of a hero. Or, a career criminal tries to pull a heist in a new venue. The first issue of Manhunter, with Mark Shaw, had him hunting down Captain Cold, in Chicago, instead of Central City. Manhunter was a bounty hunter and Cold was at large. He knew from prison that Cold was a Cubs fan and never missed a game, if he could avoid it. Cold was reported to be in the city and he staked out Wrigley Field and catches Len Snart on his way to the game, on the L. Cold tries to flee and pulls out his weapon; but, Manhunter's tech is built around a wider range of combat, while Cold had focused on Flash for so long, he didn't know how to improvise as well as against the Flash. Now, had they brought Cold back, it should be a different story as someone of his caliber shouldn't fall for the same thing, twice.
Some villains are just set up to be punching bags. I don't think anyone ever treated Stilt-Man seriously and he pretty much got whooped by everyone, without much fuss.
I think the current way of doing things shows a lack of skill on the part of editors as much as talent. Decompression and all of that are fine, for someone who knows how to pace a story properly and what the intent of the story. Making everything fit into that model, especially with someone not skilled in the technique as bad editorial work. Not every story has to be 5 or 6 issues long, nor should they be. You don't have to have one big, long story to fill a trade. You can have it be a short story collection, with a theme (or without, even) as that can be just as entertaining, in the right hands.
Whatever you do in any story has to have an underlying reason, just like you need to have a reason for two pro wrestlers to have a match. Even a random match has a reason, like trying to move up in contention for the title, or the chance for a rookie to make a name for themselves. Same for a superhero story, whether it is a standard issue, a chapter in an epic, or a cross-over. Why are these two characters being brought together? If it is just because you want to see them fight, then you better have a good reason for the fight. With the above Manhunter example, the reason is that Manhunter is a bounty hunter. His job is to hunt down and bring fugitive criminals to jail. He is not out to clean up the city or to protect the innocent or act as a symbol. He is a professional doing his job. Captain Cold is a wanted fugitive, so you have an underlying reason for Manhunter to come into conflict with him, instead of the Flash. If it were Superman, you'd need a much bigger reason. Why would Captain Cold mess around in Metropolis, knowing that Superman can do the things that the Flash can and even more? He wouldn't. He's a professional criminal, who is going to weigh the pros and cons of pulling a heist in Superman's territory. For him to do so, there must be a major reward that makes the risk worthwhile. That reward should then make Cold consider how best to accomplish this, with the added danger. He would look for an edge, with Superman, beyond his normal tech. That should be at the heart of the story. If you just have Cold turn up in Metropolis, to steal a shipment of diamonds (ice), then we know how this is going to play out and we drop the comic and pick up another, unless we have a superstar artist and they go nuts with the visuals, to compensate for a weak story. That rarely works for more than an issue.
In reviewing the team-up books at Marvel, I have come across multiple examples of how to do it right and how to churn out a mediocre story for the sake of a monthly title. The memorable ones have underlying reasons for the team-up and for the defeat of the villain(s). The hacks throw two (or more) people together and have a lot of cliched action and then the villain loses, in a by-the-numbers generic plot. The good writers bring the heroes together for a reason, figure out a strategy and then defeat the villain. Marvel Team-Up #48-51 is a perfect example. Bill Mantlo, the writer, often hacked out the stories, with little reason for anything, but every cliched ticked off the list. This one, though, he is in top form. Spidey encounters a bombing, near a Stark facility. He witnesses an explosion and investigates and runs into Stark's security guy, Iron Man. Iron Man reveals a threat, in the form of a warning note and questions Spidey about his presence and knowledge. They are then surprised by Captain Jean DeWolff, who Spidey knows and has worked with. She reveals that she also received a warning note. Now, without DeWolff, you still have a reason for Spidey and Iron Man to team up; but, it's not a strong one. It's Stark property and Iron Man works for Stark. He might take Spidey's assistance, but he doesn't need it. DeWolff gives this a stronger reason for Spidey to remain on the case, since they are allies and she is involved and even targeted, as the first issue plays out. The bomber is revealed as the Wraith and he attacks DeWolff's office and Iron Man is concussed in the explosion and Spidey ends up helpless, before the Wraith's mental powers. Iron Man ends up rescuing Spidey, after he is recovered enough, but the Wraith escapes. Evidence comes forward that the Wraith is related to the death of Jean's brother and that propels the plot forward and there is even the idea that Brian DeWolf might still be alive or have come back from the dead. That brings Dr Strange into things, as they need his help to discern the reality of what happened the night Brian supposedly died. His supernatural powers can reveal the truth, at the scene of the crime. They learn that Brian survived, but was near death and his father and cohorts worked to save him, but an accident left Brian alive, but in a catatonic state, but with a mental link to his father. His father was able to use him like a puppet, to bring vengeance against his daughter, who he considered a traitor to him. Brian's powers are still strong enough to stop Spidey and even Dr Strange; but, Iron Man is able to find a technological solution to defeat Brian's powers, by crafting a helmet that blocks the mental link with his father, removing his control over Brian, reducing him to the pure catatonic state.
So, there is a logical reason for the two heroes to come together and a strong reason for them to collaborate further and for each to need the help of the other, as well as Dr Strange to enter things. They learn more about their enemy and find a weapon to use against him and defeat him. They don't just fight and lose, then have a rematch and win, as in so many other issues, with the status quo being the same, at the end. Everything has a cause and leads to an effect, which causes the next event in the chain, leading to a trial, which brings the final conclusion to things, as Dr Strange proves instrumental in resolving Brian's condition and we get some justice out of his manipulation by his vengeful father.
Now, The Wraith was created specifically for this story, so we don't have a case for a villain to fight a new hero, though the reasoning is the same, since we are bringing other characters into a Spider-Man book for something other than a Lucille Ball plot, where Lucy (Ricardo or Carmichael) meets a celebrity and hilarity ensues. Many crossovers are little more than that. Whether the crossover is between heroes or hero and someone else's villain, to rise above the Lucy plot, you need to have an underlying rationale.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2022 18:06:06 GMT -5
I loved when Mark Waid used Ra's Al Ghul as the villain in JLA: Tower of Babel in 2000. In 30 years since the inception of the character, no one else ever used him outside the Batman universe? He's a eco-terrorist and should be treated as a global threat instead of a Batman-centric character. It was brilliantly written that he took down the JLA using Batman against them. Why wasn't that used prior? He should be in other characters books. In all the millennia Themyscira has been around, Hippolyta or Wonder Woman has faced off against him? Seems like a no-brainer. Villains should cross-pollinate if they're on the run and land elsewhere. Just makes sense rather than having same old fights for 80 years. It makes for interesting comics. Your view on Ra’s al Ghul is spot on! I feel the same way about Juggernaut. True, he’s not necessarily a global threat, and I don’t think he has any world-conquering ambitions. But whenever he attacks New York City, well where’s Iron Man? Why hasn’t Iron Man developed a Juggernaut-busting armour (or tried to)? Where’s Reed Richards, he must have a strategy in mind for Juggernaut? There must be a lot of heroes who hear about his rampages and want to limit the “collateral damage”.
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Post by badwolf on May 1, 2022 18:11:24 GMT -5
Yes, I like seeing them mix it up. One of John Byrne's first FF stories had the Human Torch up against Hammerhead, a Spider-Man foe. Doc Ock went up against Iron Man in a Marvel Fanfare story, and of course Mr. Fantastic in a memorable FF story (also by Byrne.)
Not sure how the different writing styles would affect this. If editors are doing their jobs, it shouldn't.
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Post by commond on May 1, 2022 21:26:26 GMT -5
I loved when Mark Waid used Ra's Al Ghul as the villain in JLA: Tower of Babel in 2000. In 30 years since the inception of the character, no one else ever used him outside the Batman universe? He's a eco-terrorist and should be treated as a global threat instead of a Batman-centric character. It was brilliantly written that he took down the JLA using Batman against them. Why wasn't that used prior? He should be in other characters books. In all the millennia Themyscira has been around, Hippolyta or Wonder Woman has faced off against him? Seems like a no-brainer. Villains should cross-pollinate if they're on the run and land elsewhere. Just makes sense rather than having same old fights for 80 years. It makes for interesting comics. Your view on Ra’s al Ghul is spot on! I feel the same way about Juggernaut. True, he’s not necessarily a global threat, and I don’t think he has any world-conquering ambitions. But whenever he attacks New York City, well where’s Iron Man? Why hasn’t Iron Man developed a Juggernaut-busting armour (or tried to)? Where’s Reed Richards, he must have a strategy in mind for Juggernaut? There must be a lot of heroes who hear about his rampages and want to limit the “collateral damage”. Juggernaut has been used a ton in other books -- vs. Spider-Man, Thor, Dr. Strange, Hulk, Captain Britain, Spider-Woman, the Avengers. He seems like a popular character among creators.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2022 2:00:22 GMT -5
He has, but there is still much I think could be done with him. Has he ever fought the Fantastic Four, for instance? Or the Silver Surfer?
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Post by jason on May 2, 2022 13:54:43 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Juggernaut has fought the Thing. Of course, the one I always wanted to see was Rogue vs Absorbing Man. Would them basically having the same power cancel each other out?
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Post by DubipR on May 3, 2022 15:08:08 GMT -5
It's the off-kilter villains like Despero, Vandal Savage, Per Degaton, Felix Faust and all these weird "immortal" characters that should be used by all. It seems they're locked into the JLA and JSA rather than being used in solo character books instead of being a team book in which everyone has to get together and beat the snot out of.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2022 15:49:40 GMT -5
It's the off-kilter villains like Despero, Vandal Savage, Per Degaton, Felix Faust and all these weird "immortal" characters that should be used by all. It seems they're locked into the JLA and JSA rather than being used in solo character books instead of being a team book in which everyone has to get together and beat the snot out of. I think my first exposure to Vandal Savage was in the early issues of the Flash relaunch with Wally West in '87 by Mike Baron. I wasn't a big DC reader as a kid and was really getting into DC at the time and I had no ideas he was a "JSA" villain, he just made a cool Flash villain for that story. That said, I think a lot of the real interest in the hero-villain conflict is the emotional and psychological resonance between protagonist and antagonist, i.e. the thematic underpinning of the conflict that comes from the mythology of the hero/villain conflict, and I find a lot of that is missing when villains switch up to face other heroes. There are stakes when the Juggernaut faces the X-Men because of his ties to Xavier. Against anyone else he's just a big brute that provides fisticuffs and action panels for a few pages unless the writer works really hard to provide some other kind of emotional stakes to it. In most other Juggernaut stories facing heroes other than the X-Men, you could take Marko out and replace him with any other big dumb brute of a punching bag and have the same story with the same stakes, and for me that is not interesting, it is filler to meet deadlines and get an issue out rather than an interesting story. However, when done right, such as the confrontation between Spidey and Juggernaut that Roger Stern did in the early 80s, it can be a very good story. So on the whole, I am not a fan of let's switch up the villains and heroes unless the writer has a really good idea and a way to provide some kind of emotional stake to it that raises the story to something more than a fight scene to fill pages with a different costume facing the hero this time, because those stories are missing the inherent resonances and stakes that come from stories featuring them as a nemesis for the hero they were designed to oppose. If they are really, really good, they work, otherwise they are usually just forgettable nonsense where you could put any villain in the story and get the same result because there's nothing creating tht thematic underpinning present in the villain's normal milieu. -M
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Post by badwolf on May 3, 2022 16:56:04 GMT -5
My first exposure to Vandal Savage was in the Justice League newspaper strip. It only ran briefly in the paper here, unfortunately.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 8:58:09 GMT -5
What @mrp said about emotional stakes made me think.
On a superficial level (visuals), I want to see Green Goblin go toe-to-toe with Captain America or Wolverine or Daredevil. But I realise the emotional stakes would not be there in the same way, given Goblin’s intense hatred of Spidey.
That said, law of averages should dictate, I feel, that Goblin will come across Cap or Iron Man while engaged in his devilish business. And while there’d be no emotional stakes for those, just seeing Cap’s shield hit Goblin’s glider, or Goblin in over his head when Iron Man powers up, would be interesting for me, emotional stakes or not.
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 4, 2022 11:44:45 GMT -5
It's the off-kilter villains like Despero, Vandal Savage, Per Degaton, Felix Faust and all these weird "immortal" characters that should be used by all. It seems they're locked into the JLA and JSA rather than being used in solo character books instead of being a team book in which everyone has to get together and beat the snot out of. I think my first exposure to Vandal Savage was in the early issues of the Flash relaunch with Wally West in '87 by Mike Baron. I wasn't a big DC reader as a kid and was really getting into DC at the time and I had no ideas he was a "JSA" villain, he just made a cool Flash villain for that story. He's been bedeviling the Flashes since the Silver Age, so that's fine, although it's always irked me that he was originally a Green Lantern villain, but I don't think he's ever been identified with the character once since his revival.
It also bugged me that in Robinson's Starman series, with the exception of the Mist, ALL of the villains were Flash villains. I mean, Ted Knight didn't have the greatest rogue's gallery, but I feel like Robinson didn't even try … especially when the comic was so much about the setting of Opal City, yet all its villains seem to have emigrated from Keystone City.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 11:49:07 GMT -5
I read some early Nova stories when I picked up the Essential volume years ago. I’m gonna presume some of the villains were created specifically as antagonists for Nova, so as far as Starman is concerned, it would have been nice if some effort could have been made to create a rogues gallery for him.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 4, 2022 16:05:31 GMT -5
I read some early Nova stories when I picked up the Essential volume years ago. I’m gonna presume some of the villains were created specifically as antagonists for Nova, so as far as Starman is concerned, it would have been nice if some effort could have been made to create a rogues gallery for him. Robinson did, such as Nash and Kyle, the children of the original mist, plus the dwarf Culp, taking inspiration from Charles Dickens The Old Curiosity Shop. He also created characters like The Prairie Witch, the freak show owner/incubus Bliss, the mad bomber Dr Pip, the Ludlow Family and the magician Merritt (who had a poster that was a portal to a demonic realm). He also created the supporting characters The O'Dare Family (police officers who aided both Ted and Jack Knight, in different eras); and, reformed metahuman mob muscle Jake "Bobo" Binetti. It is unfair to say that the only villains in the series came from the Flash. The Shade and the original Rag Doll were Flash enemies; but, Robinson expanded on them greatly, giving more personality to the Shade than anyone before. Solomon Grundy also appeared, but he was a Green Lantern and JSA villain. It is more accurate to say he used a lot of JSA villains, as he paid tribute to Ted Kngiht's history in the JSA, as well as his own work and Jack's connection to that. He also used the Golden Age adventure character, The Black Pirate and Brian Savage, aka Scalphunter, who comes to Opal and becomes the city's leading law enforcement officer, it's first "starman". He brought in Phantom Lady, who Roy Thomas had made a cousin (Sandra Knight) to Ted Knight. He gave us one of the few DC appearances of the Quality Comics hero, The Jester and turned their version of The Spider (Alias the Spider, an archer) into one of the Ludlow Family. He also brought in Charity, the host of the horror title, Forbidden Tales of Dark Mansion. He brought in the other Starmen, in one form or another, including the Starman of 1951 (originally a Batman story, which Robinson retconned), the alien Mikaal Tomas (from First Issue Special #12), the alien Prince Gavyn (Steve Ditko's Starman, in Adventure Comics) and Will Payton (the later 80s/early 90s Starman) as well as Will's sister Sadie, who falls for Jack, then asks him to search for her brother, somewhere in space. Robinson made use of other established villains, such as Bolt, Copperhead, Doctor Phosphorus and the Royal Flush Gang. Robinson had a nice mix of original and little used characters in the series and always left them better than he found them, in the case of established characters. He also tried to work in past histories and stories, rather than completely negate them, which is more than you can say for a large number of his contemporaries. the Shade was a fairly one-note gimmick Flash villain, from the Golden Age, who was also part of the Injustice Society. He had some Silver and Bronze Age appearances; but, was pretty much yet another gimmick villain. Robinson turned him into a near-immortal, who dated back to Victorian times, had more than a passing connection to other-dimensional forces, and a a long-term battle against the Ludlow Family and dreams of "The Bad Dwarf." We eventually learn the Bad Dwarf is Culp, who was tied to the Shade gaining his powers and actually inhabited his consciousness, taking control on some of his more villainous occasions. Shade battle Flash for fun; but, did not commit crimes in Opal, as he had a fondness for it. In the opening storyline, you are not sure if he is an ally of the Mist or another threat, until he aids Jack in defeating Kyle and Nash and saving Opal City from their rampage. Robinson gave him dimension,. Similarly, the Rag Doll was another gimmick Flash villain, who was triple-jointed and could tumble around, confusing an eluding the Flash. That was about the extent of his character development. Robinson took up the character later in his career, as he has amassed a cult following and terrorizes Opal. Ted Knight calls in his JSA co-horts to help stop their rampage and they capture him, but he reveals he knows their identities and threatens their families. One or all of them end up killing him, though the body disappears from the city morgue, afterward. It seemed like Robinson intended him or a new Rag Doll to appear, but that seemed to get dropped when Tony Harris left the book (he had designed a new Rag Doll). Rag Doll does aid Culp, in "Grand Guignol;" but, not in the fashion that Robinson seemed to hint at, earlier on. Robinson's Rag Doll becomes a figure like Charles Manson and Ted even confronts Jack about a Rag Doll t-shirt he is wearing (like the actual Manson t-shirts that are sold) and tells him the story of what happened to him. So, Robinson created quite a roster of original and interesting characters, for Starman (villains and allies) as well as gave more dimension to characters established elsewhere. His series felt like a part of the DC Universe, while still maintaining its own identity. For my money, it was the best mainstream comic of the 90s and early 00s. Certainly one of the best written. Sadly, Robinson hasn't produced that level of work since. He was quite the writer up through that; but, personal issues and other elements seemed to have inhibited his talent. He was definitely affected by the death of Archie Goodwin, who was his editor and mentor. he had substance and ego issues, to which he admits, which affected some of her professional relationships. He also had a failed stint in Hollywood, which seemed to affect his confidence. Airboy was one of the few really interesting post-Starman projects, especially its somewhat unreliable auto-biographical nature. Really, Starman is a great example of mixing characters established elsewhere and expanding upon them, as well as creating new ones or legacies. Robinson and Starman probably best captured the legacy aspect of the DC Universe, both in Starman and the JSA series, which he launched, before turning it over to David Goyer and Geoff Johns. Wikipedia has an article listing characters from the series; and, you can see how many Robinson created and how many he picked up from elsewhere.
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