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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2022 8:04:49 GMT -5
Sometimes when I'm thinking about interesting comparisons (well, at least to me!) of different characters, creators, titles/stories, etc., I think "might be interesting to see what this group thinks". But at times I also pause because I don't feel like there's enough content there to warrant a full thread, yet maybe more than if I posted in one of the existing "quick hit" threads. So I had an idea to start a running thread where each week some new comparison is posted (a basic "this versus that"). The idea again being maybe we discuss for a few days if the interest is there, and then each week move on to something else. To begin the experiment, this week I present (inspired by recent dialogue on the Super Powers toys in a couple of other threads) the following: Marvel Secret Wars versus DC's Super Powers (comic books, not the toys!) Sometimes when one discusses mid-80's events, and our favorite topic of Crisis on Infinite Earths comes up, there's mention of Secret Wars over on the Marvel side. But I believe the true counterpart to Secret Wars is in fact Super Powers. Obviously both tie directly into major toy lines associated with them. Both titles also launched within a couple months of each other in '84. Neither were major disruptions to the continuities of either worlds, Secret Wars probably being more notable mainly for the backstory on Spidey's symbiote suit which would be the main lasting implication. A few quick thoughts on each... Secret Wars ran a full 12 issues, to me it felt long and the storyline was not strong enough to keep things interesting later on. This is where I felt like the earlier Contest of Champions benefitted a bit by keeping the series fairly brief. Love that iconic Mike Zeck cover on the first issue though. The choice of heroes and villains is probably the most fun part to me overall. Super Powers ran a shorter 5 issue mini-series (with a couple of sequels in the immediate years that followed). While at its heart it really was intended as a toy advertisement, it is also notable for giving us late career Kirby and his continued treatment of the Fourth World. A common observation is that Jack was in decline at this point, and how well does this still stack up overall (personally it has enough of his DNA in it for me though). I'll also say that at the time, I found the series a bit refreshing because there was some serious negativity building up with the main JLA characters for years. The whole Flash trial debacle, Superman and Batman now angsty frenemies. This was at least refreshing to see them somewhat heroic compadres again, and may have stealthily been the last gasp of an era gone by even ahead of Crisis.
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Post by tonebone on Mar 30, 2022 9:07:46 GMT -5
Secret Wars was no masterpiece, but in comparison to Super Powers, it might as well be Shakespeare.
I found Secret Wars to be fun, when read monthly. It is a little harder to get through in collected form.
Super Powers, in my opinion, is nearly unreadable. Just a marketing ploy mess... terrible story, and Kirby's worst art.
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Post by tartanphantom on Mar 30, 2022 9:14:18 GMT -5
The Secret Wars story line could have easily been told in 6 issues. As it dragged on, it became pretty slow moving, and the ending was telegraphed way too early.
Don't even get me started about Secret Wars II.
RE: Super Powers-- as previously said, pretty much a toy advert in 5 issues.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 30, 2022 9:15:26 GMT -5
They're both terrible. But at least Super Powers doesn't pretend to be more than it is.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 30, 2022 9:19:59 GMT -5
Secret Wars was no masterpiece, but in comparison to Super Powers, it might as well be Shakespeare. I found Secret Wars to be fun, when read monthly. It is a little harder to get through in collected form. Super Powers, in my opinion, is nearly unreadable. Just a marketing ploy mess... terrible story, and Kirby's worst art. I found both to lack any true heart behind the concept (this meant trying to judge Super Powers as a story, and not an extended print ad for toys), and was as bloated and senseless as many of the "event" action and fantasy movies of that decade. About Kirby's art...yes. It was horrible. Rarely did I find a comic artist of his status so incapable of illustrating most of DC's top characters.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2022 11:08:12 GMT -5
I last read Secret Wars when I was twelve, and it was PERFECTION. it felt exactly like the drawn out action figure wars my friend and I would orchestrate into the late hours of the night, full of simplistic side plots, shifting loyalties, and big changes for characters. I've intentionally held off on reading it as an adult because I can absolutely see how it is going to age badly for me. I think it was written to appeal to the adolescent imagination, and so there it succeeds. It wasn't intended for adults, so it's no surprise that we see it for all its flaws.
As for Super Powers, maybe that was aimed at an even younger audience? I often retell the story of being five, being obsessed with Super Powers, and going to the five and dime to try out superhero comics for the first time as a result, discovering that the comics of 1985 were largely written for an adult audience and indecipherable to me. I gave up on comics and decided they weren't for me for many years after that. If Super Powers #1 had been on that spinner rack, things likely would have gone very differently for me.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 30, 2022 11:37:48 GMT -5
I never read Super Powers as it seemed too obviously a toy gimmick. Sorta curious about it now, though.
I don't think I knew until years later that Secret Wars was about toys too. I remember enjoying it at the time even though there were a lot of things that annoyed me in it. Now, all I can remember is the bad.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2022 11:55:05 GMT -5
As for Super Powers, maybe that was aimed at an even younger audience? I often retell the story of being five, being obsessed with Super Powers, and going to the five and dime to try out superhero comics for the first time as a result, discovering that the comics of 1985 were largely written for an adult audience and indecipherable to me. I gave up on comics and decided they weren't for me for many years after that. If Super Powers #1 had been on that spinner rack, things likely would have gone very differently for me. In the 70's at a very young age, I similarly remember reading titles like Super Friends and Spidey Super Stories which were a great bridge between the cartoons and moving to the "regular" series for some.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2022 11:59:16 GMT -5
I last read Secret Wars when I was twelve, and it was PERFECTION. it felt exactly like the drawn out action figure wars my friend and I would orchestrate into the late hours of the night, full of simplistic side plots, shifting loyalties, and big changes for characters. I've intentionally held off on reading it as an adult because I can absolutely see how it is going to age badly for me. I think it was written to appeal to the adolescent imagination, and so there it succeeds. It wasn't intended for adults, so it's no surprise that we see it for all its flaws. As for Super Powers, maybe that was aimed at an even younger audience? I often retell the story of being five, being obsessed with Super Powers, and going to the five and dime to try out superhero comics for the first time as a result, discovering that the comics of 1985 were largely written for an adult audience and indecipherable to me. I gave up on comics and decided they weren't for me for many years after that. If Super Powers #1 had been on that spinner rack, things likely would have gone very differently for me. I would have found kids in the back yard bashing their action figures together in play more compelling and fun than Secret Wars and it would have had less plot holes and better characterizations than Secret Wars had. The Zeck art was its only saving grace, and had it had a lesser artist is would not be as fondly remembered as it is these days. Super Powers was essentially the equivalent of the old Hostess Cupcake ads writ large into actual comic books. Silly and ridiculous ad copy does as a comic book, and really didn't pretend to be anything else. -M
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Post by berkley on Mar 30, 2022 12:46:03 GMT -5
Haven't read either one and probably never will. Secret Wars is the kind of thing that killed whatever interest I still had in Marvel's product back in the day. Super Powers I never heard of at the time and nothing I've seen or heard of it since has ever tempted me to give it a look.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 30, 2022 12:46:56 GMT -5
I last read Secret Wars when I was twelve, and it was PERFECTION. it felt exactly like the drawn out action figure wars my friend and I would orchestrate into the late hours of the night, full of simplistic side plots, shifting loyalties, and big changes for characters. I've intentionally held off on reading it as an adult because I can absolutely see how it is going to age badly for me. I think it was written to appeal to the adolescent imagination, and so there it succeeds. It wasn't intended for adults, so it's no surprise that we see it for all its flaws. As for Super Powers, maybe that was aimed at an even younger audience? I often retell the story of being five, being obsessed with Super Powers, and going to the five and dime to try out superhero comics for the first time as a result, discovering that the comics of 1985 were largely written for an adult audience and indecipherable to me. I gave up on comics and decided they weren't for me for many years after that. If Super Powers #1 had been on that spinner rack, things likely would have gone very differently for me. I would have found kids in the back yard bashing their action figures together in play more compelling and fun than Secret Wars and it would have had less plot holes and better characterizations than Secret Wars had. The Zeck art was its only saving grace, and had it had a lesser artist is would not be as fondly remembered as it is these days. They wouldn't have had Galactus plop down in the center of the rumble, gingerly building his planet-devouring apparatus without a care in the world, nor Dr. Doom having the perfect audacity to take him down. Close your adult eyes and embrace with your adolescent ones. Even in spite of the many inconsistencies and problems, It's okay to admit it was awesome. Or maybe you had to be an adolescent reading it for the first time, the way only children can hear the bell in The Polar Express. It could be that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2022 12:48:56 GMT -5
I would have found kids in the back yard bashing their action figures together in play more compelling and fun than Secret Wars and it would have had less plot holes and better characterizations than Secret Wars had. The Zeck art was its only saving grace, and had it had a lesser artist is would not be as fondly remembered as it is these days. They wouldn't have had Galactus plop down in the center of the rumble, gingerly building his planet-devouring apparatus without a care in the world, nor Dr. Doom have the perfect audacity to take him down. Close your adult eyes and embrace with your adolescent ones. Even in spite of the many inconsistencies and problems, It's okay to admit it was awesome. I read it as it came out in high school and hated it for the same reasons then. I didn't come to it as an adult. I haven't read it since it came out when I was in high school, so my impression of it remains what it was when I read it initially in the 80s. I never wanted to revisit it after my first read. -M
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Post by MDG on Mar 30, 2022 13:34:04 GMT -5
There are three ideas that seem to be coming up in a few threads lately:
Idea #1: There are superhero stories made for children and there are superhero stories made for adults. Idea #2: Many superhero stories made for children and superhero stories made for adults use the same characters. Idea #3: Some adults wish Idea #2 would go away
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Post by MWGallaher on Mar 30, 2022 14:38:58 GMT -5
Super Powers was based on better toys, so there's at least that going for it.
Kirby's skills were in decline, but I think there's still a lot to enjoy in the single issue he drew in the first miniseries, the final installment. I thought it was cool to see Kirby draw characters like Hawkman, Aquaman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, that he'd never touched before, and this cartoony version of Penguin was right up his alley.
Even a diminished Kirby could provide some unique and interesting page composition. Over in Secret Wars, Jim Shooter was imposing his ideals of "good storytelling" on Mike Zeck's art, which is fine if you like straightforward staging with plenty of full-figure, medium range images.
I will acknowledge that "Secret Wars" is a better name. I liked that phrase from the first time I heard it, when it was attached to "The Secret War of Hawkman", announced before Marvel's maxiseries. (By the time it was published, Tony Isabella had to rename his book "Shadow War of Hawkman", which was an even better title, so I don't begrudge Marvel's snagging the trademark.)
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Post by tonebone on Mar 30, 2022 14:43:54 GMT -5
There are three ideas that seem to be coming up in a few threads lately: Idea #1: There are superhero stories made for children and there are superhero stories made for adults. Idea #2: Many superhero stories made for children and superhero stories made for adults use the same characters. Idea #3: Some adults wish Idea #2 would go away Nicely put. I would add that Idea #2 seems integral to attracting kids to comics, if it's even possible anymore. I know 10-15 years ago both Marvel and DC tried doing "...Adventures" type comics, that featured manga-ized, cartoony, chibi, or other distortions of the main characters, and they went nowhere. I think when a kid goes to the "rack" to find Spider-Man, they want the REAL Spider-Man, not some processed-cheese version that will be more "palatable" for kids with simplified art and stories that "don't matter". I've never figured out the simplified art style trope that they always fall back on. Why? Is it because of animation? Animated character designs are simplified to aid in having to draw repeated images, and it makes them easier to stay on model having a simpler image. But in comics, EVERY TIME they try to carry that style over to the comics page, as if that's what's expected. How does it help a kid's immersion in a comic, if the image is simpler? I understand if the comic is BASED on an animated version, it maybe should look like it, but otherwise, no.
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