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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 8:46:14 GMT -5
Despite recent progress in reprints, there is still a lot that's not easily or affordably accessible (especially if you want to include newspaper strips). I think this is a really key point. For years I heard about how the original Golden Age Monster Society of Evil run in Captain Marvel Adventures was legendary reading. FINALLY years later got an opportunity to read, and it was everything I hoped for. But an example of reputation far exceeding accessibility. Along those lines, back to the movies example, you can take any list of "classic 100 movies of all time", and while there may be some differences, there are going to some staples that keep showing back up (Citizen Kane, Godfather, etc.) Many to most of them are going to be accessible in some form, whether streamed or physical media, for a relatively reasonable cost. And if you have say a few spare lazy weekends, you can actually knock off a fair number. Whereas comic books, even for fast readers, tend to take more time even if you have access to the ones you want. Also, I absolutely love both Untold Legend of The Batman and Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow? Edit: I was still typing this when the last couple of posts were made, totally great continued points there.
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 28, 2022 8:49:07 GMT -5
One of the many things I love about this community is that we don't have much Kool Aid available. Short of having any Bob Kane defenders around, we seem to have just about every point of view represented, whereas facebook groups are often a hivemind where independent thought gets slammed. It is so refreshing to find folks here who don't think The Killing Joke was the end all, be all Joker story, or that John Byrne is the greatest comic creator of all time. That being said, I can think of at least two iconic stories that I've never seen anyone slam around here: Untold Legend of The Batman and Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow?I used to work with a guy who was a major Bob Kane defender. It was ... weird. He was an older guy and he had met Bob Kane in the 1970s, before so many awful things about Kane were as well known. And he was never able to accept the eyewitness testimony of everybody that ever worked with Kane. He was also terrible at his job and made my own stint at the company a living nightmare.
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Post by MDG on Mar 28, 2022 8:57:16 GMT -5
Even that discussion would be fascinating. When I first got serious about comics, I stumbled upon a documentary on TV, and I remember nothing about it other than the "definitive" comics it discussed. It was where I first learned about the Death of Gwen Stacey, Wonder Woman losing her powers, Green Lantern getting shamed by the Black man on the roof, and the Spider-Man and Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues, amongst other things. That was my first sense of a partial "classic comics canon". Note these are all shakeups of an existing character.
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 8:58:34 GMT -5
Even that discussion would be fascinating. When I first got serious about comics, I stumbled upon a documentary on TV, and I remember nothing about it other than the "definitive" comics it discussed. It was where I first learned about the Death of Gwen Stacey, Wonder Woman losing her powers, Green Lantern getting shamed by the Black man on the roof, and the Spider-Man and Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues, amongst other things. That was my first sense of a partial "classic comics canon". Note these are all shakeups of an existing character. Yes, but in each case, also a shake-up of the genre. I'm not necessarily defending these selections. I've just always accepted them as works with which pretty much everyone in comics is familiar.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 28, 2022 9:04:24 GMT -5
Definitely agree with Kurt (Cei-U) and a few others: Batman Year One thoroughly underwhelmed me. And it was more of a Jim Gordon story anyway. And I'll even go one further and say that I'm not as gaga over Mazzucchelli's art as everyone else seems to be - I don't hate it, I just don't think it's all that great, either. (I am, however, impressed with the number of double consonants in his surname.)
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Post by Batflunkie on Mar 28, 2022 9:04:40 GMT -5
On the other side of the coin, there are things that seem almost universally disliked. I can’t say I’ve known anyone who liked the movie HOWARD THE DUCK. I didn’t. But there must be someone on Earth who does. Oh, I've had a co-worker who loved the HTD movie. Believe it or not, we're really close friends
Also, the Ty Templeton run from 2008 made a point to reference the movie every chance it got
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 9:08:25 GMT -5
On the other side of the coin, there are things that seem almost universally disliked. I can’t say I’ve known anyone who liked the movie HOWARD THE DUCK. I didn’t. But there must be someone on Earth who does. Oh, I've had a co-worker who loved the HTD movie. Believe it or not, we're really close friends Also, the Ty Templeton run from 2008 made a point to reference the movie every chance it got
I don't understand why the film draws so much derision. In my mind, it's as good as any mainstream adaptation of Howard The Duck prior to the MCU was going to be. You take an edgy, non-conformist protagonist in an edgy, non-conformist work written by an edgy non-conformist, have a mainstream film company adapt it for a wide audience, and you have to expect that a lot will be lost in the translation.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 28, 2022 9:18:44 GMT -5
One of the many things I love about this community is that we don't have much Kool Aid available. Short of having any Bob Kane defenders around, we seem to have just about every point of view represented, whereas facebook groups are often a hivemind where independent thought gets slammed. It is so refreshing to find folks here who don't think The Killing Joke was the end all, be all Joker story, or that John Byrne is the greatest comic creator of all time. That being said, I can think of at least two iconic stories that I've never seen anyone slam around here: Untold Legend of The Batman and Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow?Have y'all not been paying attention all these years? I've said many times that not even Alan Moore could make the Silver/Bronze Age Superman interesting. As to Bob Kane...defender would be too strong, but I won't vilify him for what was a pretty standard practice (more so in comic strips than comic books). Ham Fisher used ghosts for most of "his" run on Joe Palooka. Al Capp used frequent ghosts on Lil Abner. Etc., etc. It's been a LONG time since I've read those copies stories, but I don't remember if Will Eisner credited his ghosts on The Spirit when he was in the Army. I certainly won't defend Kane as a cartoonist, because he was pretty crap. But as a human he wasn't any worse than a lot of others.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 9:20:16 GMT -5
I think the responses here already show the elusiveness of universal/near-universal consensus. There is always going to be some following for almost everything, like the Howard the Duck movie. I could say the same of the 80's Masters of the Universe film, heck, even the George Clooney Batman and Robin film has it's following despite how legendarily "bad" one always hears.
I'm in the small group that actually likes Spider-Man: Chapter One, I prefer it to Batman Year One and many other much more popular choices.
I look at it this way:
Popular things are appreciated 95% of the time, unpopular things 5% of the time. 95% of people like at least one thing that falls into the 5% unpopular above.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 28, 2022 9:20:37 GMT -5
I think even here, it would be tough going. I'm also afraid it would become a collection that 20% pre-1985 and 80% 1985-present. Also, unlike say movies or paintings or novels, the definition is a lot mushier. For example, to take three things that might be in there: "Master Race" is 8 pages Kirby-Lee's FF is like 100 issues Zap Comics is 15 issues over something like 40 years One more: "Master Race" is a standalone story The Little Lulu story "Five Little Babies" is an example of a character acting exactly how expected
Dark Knight uses a well-established character and upends expectations Can you rate them all the same way?
Even that discussion would be fascinating. When I first got serious about comics, I stumbled upon a documentary on TV, and I remember nothing about it other than the "definitive" comics it discussed. It was where I first learned about the Death of Gwen Stacey, Wonder Woman losing her powers, Green Lantern getting shamed by the Black man on the roof, and the Spider-Man and Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues, amongst other things. That was my first sense of a partial "classic comics canon". "Partial" is right. Sounds like that doc made the classic error of treating super-heroes as the only genre of comics that matter. Where are Uncle Scrooge, Little Lulu, MAD, Pogo, Young Romance, Tales from the Crypt, Classics Illustrated, Zap, etc, etc? Not to mention Asterix, Beano, Tintin, Moebius, tons of manga, etc, etc?
Cei-U! I summon the tunnel vision (not you, shax, the filmmakers)!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 28, 2022 9:21:24 GMT -5
I'll add that I've never seen ET. I it looked like a kid movie when I was no longer a kid and I've had zero interest in seeing it since. My wife does hate it though. And she likes Howard The Duck (which I've also never seen).
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 9:28:32 GMT -5
Even that discussion would be fascinating. When I first got serious about comics, I stumbled upon a documentary on TV, and I remember nothing about it other than the "definitive" comics it discussed. It was where I first learned about the Death of Gwen Stacey, Wonder Woman losing her powers, Green Lantern getting shamed by the Black man on the roof, and the Spider-Man and Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues, amongst other things. That was my first sense of a partial "classic comics canon". "Partial" is right. Sounds like that doc made the classic error of treating super-heroes as the only genre of comics that matter. Where are Uncle Scrooge, Little Lulu, MAD, Pogo, Young Romance, Tales from the Crypt, Classics Illustrated, Zap, etc, etc? Not to mention Asterix, Beano, Tintin, Moebius, tons of manga, etc, etc? Cei-U! I summon the tunnel vision (not you, shax, the filmmakers)!
Oh, I'd blame that more on the viewer than the documentary. I wasn't interested in that stuff at the time and wouldn't have taken note if they did spend time on it. Took me quite a few years to move outside of the superhero genre and see the genius I was missing.
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 28, 2022 9:34:29 GMT -5
One of the many things I love about this community is that we don't have much Kool Aid available. Short of having any Bob Kane defenders around, we seem to have just about every point of view represented, whereas facebook groups are often a hivemind where independent thought gets slammed. It is so refreshing to find folks here who don't think The Killing Joke was the end all, be all Joker story, or that John Byrne is the greatest comic creator of all time. That being said, I can think of at least two iconic stories that I've never seen anyone slam around here: Untold Legend of The Batman and Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow?Have y'all not been paying attention all these years? I've said many times that not even Alan Moore could make the Silver/Bronze Age Superman interesting. As to Bob Kane...defender would be too strong, but I won't vilify him for what was a pretty standard practice (more so in comic strips than comic books). Ham Fisher used ghosts for most of "his" run on Joe Palooka. Al Capp used frequent ghosts on Lil Abner. Etc., etc. It's been a LONG time since I've read those copies stories, but I don't remember if Will Eisner credited his ghosts on The Spirit when he was in the Army. I certainly won't defend Kane as a cartoonist, because he was pretty crap. But as a human he wasn't any worse than a lot of others. Bob Kane is not merely criticized for having ghost artists. Sheldon Moldoff called him “the most miserable son of a bitch I’ve ever known” for a number of reasons. I think a lot of people detest Bob Kane for the way he went out of his way to erase Bill Finger entirely.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 28, 2022 9:40:14 GMT -5
I saw E.T. when it was first released and found it not bad but... disappointing. Too sickly sweet, too emotionally manipulative for my taste, then and now. Maybe if I'd been 12 instead of 24 when I first saw it, I'd have reacted differently. As it is, I still consider it one of Speilberg's least interesting films. Cei-U! I summon the different drummer! I was 12 when it came out and I liked it. But I'm not sure if I ever rewatched it and have no wish to revisit it. I find most of Spielberg's work too saccharine and emotionally manipulative, as you say.
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 9:44:52 GMT -5
Have y'all not been paying attention all these years? I've said many times that not even Alan Moore could make the Silver/Bronze Age Superman interesting. As to Bob Kane...defender would be too strong, but I won't vilify him for what was a pretty standard practice (more so in comic strips than comic books). Ham Fisher used ghosts for most of "his" run on Joe Palooka. Al Capp used frequent ghosts on Lil Abner. Etc., etc. It's been a LONG time since I've read those copies stories, but I don't remember if Will Eisner credited his ghosts on The Spirit when he was in the Army. I certainly won't defend Kane as a cartoonist, because he was pretty crap. But as a human he wasn't any worse than a lot of others. Bob Kane is not merely criticized for having ghost artists. Sheldon Moldoff called him “the most miserable son of a bitch I’ve ever known” for a number of reasons. I think a lot of people detest Bob Kane for the way he went out of his way to erase Bill Finger entirely. Kane was a product of his time, but he wasn't wise enough to quit while he was ahead. Once he became a mega star due to the 1960s Batmania, it was probably time to share some credit. And, when comic fandom started taking an active interest in creators and lavishing additional praise on him, it was certainly time to share some of the credit. Once the 1989 Batmania took hold, it was past time to share credit, and he still failed to do so. That he also went on to dabble in art and then do the same damn thing, passing off the works of others as his own, is just downright embarrassing. And that he really leapt into the role of celebrity genius doesn't reflect favorably on him either. He could have at least been somewhat modest in keeping the undo credit.
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