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Post by badwolf on Mar 8, 2022 9:45:36 GMT -5
Yikes! What happened to his anatomy while he was away??
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Post by james on Mar 8, 2022 13:15:26 GMT -5
Personally when it comes to DD My favorite run is the Roger Mackenzie 152-161. To be they were just great DD stories and 157-161 were Miller’s first, and in my opinion the best Miller art of his entire run.
Agreed, especially in regard to Miller's DD artwork, which became sketchier and sketchier as his run continued - the layouts were great, but that's about all they were, just layouts, after a while. As far as the writing goes, there were some great moments in Miller's stint as writer but it never felt like Daredevil to me: I think my favourite individual story is the famous one where Bullseye kills Elektra. From memory, that was the most effective marriage of the kind of hard-boiled crime writing Miller obviously wanted to do with the world of long-standing Marvel superhero Daredevil, and it's no coincidence IMO that the story had to be told from Bullseye's POV - even narrated by him.
So yeah, on the whole, I prefer those earlier stories written by MacKenzie, where you had Miller doing more finished artwork and Daredevil more like the character he'd been for pretty much all his existence up to then.
YES!!! Again another example of an artiste becoming a writer and their art suffering. Maybe Walt Simonson and early John Byrne FF being an exception. I truly found most of Frank Miller’s art really bad after his DD run. Dark Knight, and any since.
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Post by Marv-El on Mar 8, 2022 15:08:06 GMT -5
But in the past 20 or so years, the wrong turn playbook has been: Hero is killed ("for reals", I'm sure) Hero's secret identity exposed Hero gets a kid (that's some real escapist entertainment right there) supporting character brutally murdered/raped/replaced by alien hero is succeeded by awful teenage version (I call this the Poochie effect, and it keeps on giving) hero is neutered to have "cutesey wootsie" adventures, or hang out at Starbucks instead of kicking ass Hero ALMOST gets married (not as much of a wrong turn as a fan fake-out) Hero becomes different sex, age (I'm looking at you, Thor) Hero has secretly been EVIL for the past 8 decades without anyone knowing (sort of a master-stroke wrong turn, where it taints all 80 years of previous stories... well done!) 1) Death as a powerful dramatic tool for writers in comics has been castrated and rendered useless for decades now for which I've finally grown comfortable with for the most part these days. It is what it is, a sales stunt. 2) Well after reading an entire thread on the subejct, you can either be a d*ck and keep your secret identity or not. Frankly, I find it keeping more in line with our social media-mad society today, how exactly are you supposed to keep a secret identity when everyone is watching? 3) At my age, it's nice to see how they would adjust to having a kid. The best example of this (which thankfully DC has now restored) is Wally West's family. It's all about coming full circle and seeing Wally handle this new dynamic has been engaging. Super Sons with Jon Kent and Damian Wayne is another excellent example. 4) I think fridged is the term you are looking for. It always seems to be the female supporting cast who fall into this category. 5) I read this and the first thing that comes to mind is Kamala and Miles. DC has their share these days, a new Mister Miracle and young Dr Fate I think among some other examples. Depends on how well they are written of course, but 'awful'? All of them? Hardly. 6) You need to define that scenario better or at least give an example for I'm drawing a blank on this one. 7) Hey, it's alright. Bruce and Selina love each other and always will. It's just at this time, they are on different paths dealing with different obsessions. It'll work out in the end, I'm sure. 8) If Aaron had turned Thor Odinson into Thoress Odindaughter, you may have a point. But all I will respectfully say on this matter is that the saga of Lady Thor is one of the best arcs I've read in recent memory. If you've read it or even part of it and didn't like it, alright then, reader's choice. But don't knock it if you haven't tried it. 9) This is yet another sly sales stunt (see 'Death') but in this matter, I'm reminded of the sage wisdom of Kirby, is it a good story? Judge it by that context for such things, as with the eternal slumber, rarely last as long either.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 8, 2022 16:44:41 GMT -5
But seriously folks... comics used to generate interest with a new exciting villain, with romantic interest or troubles, with work/life balance issues... But in the past 20 or so years, the wrong turn playbook has been: Hero is killed ("for reals", I'm sure) Hero's secret identity exposed Hero gets a kid (that's some real escapist entertainment right there) supporting character brutally murdered/raped/replaced by alien hero is succeeded by awful teenage version (I call this the Poochie effect, and it keeps on giving) hero is neutered to have "cutesey wootsie" adventures, or hang out at Starbucks instead of kicking ass Hero ALMOST gets married (not as much of a wrong turn as a fan fake-out) Hero becomes different sex, age (I'm looking at you, Thor) Hero has secretly been EVIL for the past 8 decades without anyone knowing (sort of a master-stroke wrong turn, where it taints all 80 years of previous stories... well done!) It used to be that plot twists and such gimmicks were minor course corrections, but this kind of stuff has really driven things off the rails, sometimes permanently damaging the characters, in my opinion. I mean, I couldn't even tell you right now if Iron Man is Tony Stark, or if it's a teenage girl, or if Stark is dead, or a god, or a ghost, or revealed to be a Skrull. Meanwhile, little Johnny's mom takes him to the comics store to try to find an Iron Man comic that's like the movies. No luck there. So, yeah, that's what really grinds my gears. I'm with you. There's plenty of other stuff about modern comics that grinds my gears, but this is a good start.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 8, 2022 16:47:26 GMT -5
feh. . Correct. Luckily, this was relatively short lived.
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Post by Duragizer on Mar 8, 2022 17:29:22 GMT -5
After all this time, I still don't hate electric Superman. At least it revived my interest in the titles at the time, silly a gimmick though it was. That's more than I can say about Return to Krypton, Birthright, etc.
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Post by berkley on Mar 9, 2022 5:53:52 GMT -5
Agreed, especially in regard to Miller's DD artwork, which became sketchier and sketchier as his run continued - the layouts were great, but that's about all they were, just layouts, after a while. As far as the writing goes, there were some great moments in Miller's stint as writer but it never felt like Daredevil to me: I think my favourite individual story is the famous one where Bullseye kills Elektra. From memory, that was the most effective marriage of the kind of hard-boiled crime writing Miller obviously wanted to do with the world of long-standing Marvel superhero Daredevil, and it's no coincidence IMO that the story had to be told from Bullseye's POV - even narrated by him.
So yeah, on the whole, I prefer those earlier stories written by MacKenzie, where you had Miller doing more finished artwork and Daredevil more like the character he'd been for pretty much all his existence up to then.
YES!!! Again another example of an artiste becoming a writer and their art suffering. Maybe Walt Simonson and early John Byrne FF being an exception. I truly found most of Frank Miller’s art really bad after his DD run. Dark Knight, and any since. have to disagree a bit with you there: I like his art on Dark Knight and Ronin and especially Sin City - I think SC ws where he really fulfilled himself as an artist and perhaps as a writer too, since he could finally really let himself go with the hard-boiled kind of ting he'd been raring to go on with for so long.
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Post by The Cheat on Mar 9, 2022 14:02:12 GMT -5
But seriously folks... comics used to generate interest with a new exciting villain, with romantic interest or troubles, with work/life balance issues... But in the past 20 or so years, the wrong turn playbook has been: Hero is killed ("for reals", I'm sure) Hero's secret identity exposed Hero gets a kid (that's some real escapist entertainment right there) supporting character brutally murdered/raped/replaced by alien hero is succeeded by awful teenage version (I call this the Poochie effect, and it keeps on giving) hero is neutered to have "cutesey wootsie" adventures, or hang out at Starbucks instead of kicking ass Hero ALMOST gets married (not as much of a wrong turn as a fan fake-out) Hero becomes different sex, age (I'm looking at you, Thor) Hero has secretly been EVIL for the past 8 decades without anyone knowing (sort of a master-stroke wrong turn, where it taints all 80 years of previous stories... well done!) It used to be that plot twists and such gimmicks were minor course corrections, but this kind of stuff has really driven things off the rails, sometimes permanently damaging the characters, in my opinion. I mean, I couldn't even tell you right now if Iron Man is Tony Stark, or if it's a teenage girl, or if Stark is dead, or a god, or a ghost, or revealed to be a Skrull. Meanwhile, little Johnny's mom takes him to the comics store to try to find an Iron Man comic that's like the movies. No luck there. So, yeah, that's what really grinds my gears. Hear hear. Agree with all of that.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 9, 2022 14:12:59 GMT -5
Agreed, especially in regard to Miller's DD artwork, which became sketchier and sketchier as his run continued - the layouts were great, but that's about all they were, just layouts, after a while. As far as the writing goes, there were some great moments in Miller's stint as writer but it never felt like Daredevil to me: I think my favourite individual story is the famous one where Bullseye kills Elektra. From memory, that was the most effective marriage of the kind of hard-boiled crime writing Miller obviously wanted to do with the world of long-standing Marvel superhero Daredevil, and it's no coincidence IMO that the story had to be told from Bullseye's POV - even narrated by him.
So yeah, on the whole, I prefer those earlier stories written by MacKenzie, where you had Miller doing more finished artwork and Daredevil more like the character he'd been for pretty much all his existence up to then.
YES!!! Again another example of an artiste becoming a writer and their art suffering. Maybe Walt Simonson and early John Byrne FF being an exception. I truly found most of Frank Miller’s art really bad after his DD run. Dark Knight, and any since. Agreed!
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Post by MDG on Mar 9, 2022 16:15:20 GMT -5
YES!!! Again another example of an artiste becoming a writer and their art suffering. Maybe Walt Simonson and early John Byrne FF being an exception. I truly found most of Frank Miller’s art really bad after his DD run. Dark Knight, and any since. have to disagree a bit with you there: I like his art on Dark Knight and Ronin and especially Sin City - I think SC ws where he really fulfilled himself as an artist and perhaps as a writer too, since he could finally really let himself go with the hard-boiled kind of ting he'd been raring to go on with for so long. Agree and disagree--I enjoyed DD at the time, but haven't returned to it since they originally came out. I liked Ronin (though it's not my type of thing) and have been listening to a podcast covering Dark Knight that really makes me want to revisit it again.
But I jumped off the Miller train with Sin City. I thought the artwork was great early on, but the stories fell flat for me (based on the initial and two or three other arcs). It felt under-developed compared to his earlier stuff, and the art actually became predictable--less focus on storytellng.
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Post by berkley on Mar 9, 2022 21:44:07 GMT -5
have to disagree a bit with you there: I like his art on Dark Knight and Ronin and especially Sin City - I think SC ws where he really fulfilled himself as an artist and perhaps as a writer too, since he could finally really let himself go with the hard-boiled kind of ting he'd been raring to go on with for so long. Agree and disagree--I enjoyed DD at the time, but haven't returned to it since they originally came out. I liked Ronin (though it's not my type of thing) and have been listening to a podcast covering Dark Knight that really makes me want to revisit it again.
But I jumped off the Miller train with Sin City. I thought the artwork was great early on, but the stories fell flat for me (based on the initial and two or three other arcs). It felt under-developed compared to his earlier stuff, and the art actually became predictable--less focus on storytellng.
Been quite a few years since read them but from memory, I probably wouldn<t disagree too much with that, as I do recall finding the series lost some of its steam after a while. I thought the earlier books were really well done, though, especially the first one.
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