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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 13:10:36 GMT -5
I can't explain it exactly, but I liked how Shocker could be made a fool of but still be a threat overall (I know that is a weird thing to like, I was just a strange child). My mother made me a Shocker costume for Halloween when I was in 1st grade. The next year I was The Beetle. I always thought Shocker had a particularly cool and unique costume, and I love hearing this story about your Halloween costume(s), what a cool mom! Shocker's been written from some different angles over the years, but when you really think about his powers, he can be quite the heavyweight (to your point about being a threat overall).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 13:18:21 GMT -5
Me too! I voted Ock, but I'm actually enjoying seeing Mysterio (who's a fantastic character) take a nice lead at this point. Anybody else remember the whacky moment when Jameson literally rips Mysterio's cash payment in half? The Grantray-Lawrence show was MY introduction to Spider-Man, and to my shock & surprise, decades later, having put up with so many highs and far more lows in the comics, the GL cartoons are my FAVORITE version of the character ever done. In the 3 episodes they did with The Green Goblin, he was changed almost beyond recognition into a humorous baddie, rather than a scheming would-be mob boss. Mysterio appeared twice in the GL cartoons (and came back in the 3rd season-- I have a suspicion that script may have started life just before GL went bankrupt and shut down). His 2nd appearance seems more inspired by a Johnny Storm solo story, but his first was the ONLY full-length (20 min.) adaptation they did in their run, and after watching it COUNTLESS times over the decades (while only reading the original Steve Ditko story twice), I actually think the TV version was better than the comic. Doc Ock, on the other hand, appeared in the PILOT, and then again later in the season. It's very odd how-- just like Mysterio-- he had 2 different voices between his 2 appearances (though I'd almost bet it was the same actor doing both of them). But in both stories, Doc Ock came across as a real megalomaniacal madman, and just projected an aura of menace unlike any other villain in the GL run. To me, Ock was ALWAYS Spider-Man's #1 ARCH-ENEMY. I was so thrilled when he was featured in the 2nd movie, and I felt from the start that Alfred Molina may have done the single most authentic rendition of a super-villain's personality from the comics to the movies EVER seen. Before his accident, they fleshed him out very nicely (more than the comics ever did), but after the accident, he became EXACTLY as he was in the comics-- INSANE and DANGEROUS. What always gets me, which nobody ever brings up... in the comics, thanks to John Romita, The Green Goblin's origin was a blatent swipe of Doc Ock's origin. Watch the 2 movies and you see this, it's vitrually the same story. But I really doubt that what's Steve Ditko had in mind. It's a shame he left before he got around to writing GG's origin. After, readers were supposed to feel sympathy for Norman Osborn. I find it hard to do that nowadays, knowing that Ditko always portrayed him as a career criminal with ambitions to be a mob boss. Otto Octavius was the tragic one who deserved sympathy... but somehow, that got completely forgotten.
I can relate to so much of this! And yeah, I have a real soft spot for the show as well. Despite some of the sillier elements at times (which just adds to the charm for me), it somehow also captures the true spirit/heart of Spidey I think.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 31, 2021 13:20:13 GMT -5
I voted for Rhino and Mysterio, but I really wish I had a third vote so I could vote for Sandman. I'm pleasantly surprised to find to find that Doc Ock and Green Goblin aren't running away with this. I might have picked Green Goblin had he not died before I could even walk. I’ve never even acknowledged he returned after being dead 2 decades. And you shouldn’t! I hardly read any new Marvel comics for fear that Osborn will turn out to be the mystery villain.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 31, 2021 13:43:43 GMT -5
I have a real soft spot for the show as well. Despite some of the sillier elements at times (which just adds to the charm for me), it somehow also captures the true spirit/heart of Spidey I think. The '67 series was often wildly inaccurate (IOW, not faithful to the comics, especially the classics published at the same time it was first run). While the "blue skies" seasons of the series featured some villains from the comics, it also had silly, recurring made-for TV villains such as the Human Fly twins, Parafino (who created living wax figures to commit crimes), an Australian hunter named Clivendon (poor Kraven replacement), Doctor Von Schlick, Noah Boddy and Miss Trubble, among other oddities. The best of the lot were the episodes produced by Krantz Animation (taking over after Grantray-Lawrence went bankrupt) AKA the Ralph Bakshi-directed seasons (the one with the moodier, psychedelic skies), where the origin was adapted, Captain Stacy made an appearance (in a slight adaptation of TASM #65), and the Kingpin appeared in one of the high points of the series.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 31, 2021 14:09:28 GMT -5
I chose The Lizard and The Shocker. They were two of the first Spidey foes I encountered. As a kid I would have chosen Green Goblin over Shocker, but he’s been poorly served (and overused) since at least the late 70s. Kingpin is probably #3 at this point.
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Post by badwolf on Dec 31, 2021 14:12:21 GMT -5
I voted for Mysterio (for his design and illusion gimmick) and
Shocker because they were my favorites growing up. I guess Shocker is a weird choice, but when I was little I was really into his design haha (but it was also funny when characters would make fun of his outfit, like Elektro, no snappy dresser himself, calling Shocker a refugee from a mattress factory).
I liked Shocker's costume as well. I think I only read him in ASM #72 (reprinted in Origins of Marvel Comics) but I read it over and over. I didn't get that his costume was quilt/cushion because John Romita just drew the lines flat. I don't think it was until much later (like in your example) that other artists gave them more shape and texture.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 14:14:55 GMT -5
I have a real soft spot for the show as well. Despite some of the sillier elements at times (which just adds to the charm for me), it somehow also captures the true spirit/heart of Spidey I think. The '67 series was often wildly inaccurate (IOW, not faithful to the comics, especially the classics published at the same time it was first run). While the "blue skies" seasons of the series featured some villains from the comics, it also had silly, recurring made-for TV villains such as the Human Fly twins, Parafino (who created living wax figures to commit crimes), an Australian hunter named Clivendon (poor Kraven replacement), Doctor Von Schlick, Noah Boddy and Miss Trubble, among other oddities. The best of the lot were the episodes produced by Krantz Animation (taking over after Grantray-Lawrence went bankrupt) AKA the Ralph Bakshi-directed seasons (the one with the moodier, psychedelic skies), where the origin was adapted, Captain Stacy made an appearance (in a slight adaptation of TASM #65), and the Kingpin appeared in one of the high points of the series. Krantz episodes were actually more "Rocket Robin Hood" than Spider-Man, they were reduced budget productions and it really showed. Grantray-Lawrence episodes were the absolute bee's knees. I love Parafino and Noah Boddy and all the crazy stuff they came up with, and TONS of appearances of the regular villains too (Ock, Electro, Mysterio, Lizard, Sandman, Scorpion, Vulture, Lizard, Rhino, etc.).
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Post by chadwilliam on Dec 31, 2021 16:00:53 GMT -5
Doctor OctopusThe Green Goblin feels more like a Peter Parker villain which is a bit of a cheat. Dr. Octopus was the first to shake Spider-Man's confidence by defeating him at their first encounter, the one who formed The Sinister Six, had an amnesiac Spider-Man thinking they were partners (and Spider-Man a junior one at that), and if you really want to get into "Well, Peter Parker is Spider-Man so Goblin going after that identity should still count", Dr. Octopus put a rift between Peter and his first love, Betty Brant by killing her brother during a fight AND nearly married his Aunt - two events which struck right at Parker's heart without Doc Ock even trying to hurt his foe. It always felt like The Green Goblin just took cheap shots at Peter Parker like some petulant child - "I can't kill you but I can kill your girlfriend" - whereas to Doctor Octopus, defeating Spider-Man was merely step six in a ten step process. A villain who solely wants to destroy the good guy just seems too needy and too desperate to really garner much respect. And man, almost marrying his Aunt - if I cared about making things personal with Spider-Man, I think that would be one hell of a creative way at getting to him. Sure, every time Peter Parker thinks about Gwen he's going to think of The Green Goblin, but how about every time he sits down for dinner he has to sit across from Doctor Octopus? AND mind his manners? "Now Peter, you know it's not polite to pick up your utensils before your new Uncle Ben has a chance to say Grace..." J Jonah JamesonSure there are hundreds of villains who'd love for the public to pick up a newspaper and read about how they defeated Spider-Man, but it's J Jonah Jameson who's going to be writing that headline. A villain Peter Parker has to keep borrowing money from too? Yeah, yeah - "but he's actually making a fool out of Jameson by selling him pictures of himself" - sure, but if those pictures are accompanying "SPIDER-MAN - INCONTINENT!" headlines, so what? And imagine getting off your lousy eight hour a day job, breathing a sigh equal measures exhaustion and relief, look up from the pavement, and see your boss coming at you looking like this: There really is no let-up. And in case it sounds a bit hypocritical for me to count Jameson as such a great villain for what he does to Parker when I held it against The Green Goblin - I'll just point out that in his Norman Osborn identity, The Goblin doesn't have anything against Spider-Man since even his diabolical mind can't be angry at the guy morning, noon, and night. Jameson however? He's doing stuff like this AND running a newspaper at the same time. That is commitment!
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 31, 2021 22:02:10 GMT -5
This seems a good place to mention... I prefer Jameson on the Grantray-Lawrence cartoons, because there, he's the COMIC RELIEF.
He's NOT FUNNY in the comics. And once John Romita took over the writing from Steve Ditko, Jameson became genuinely PSYCHOPATHIC.
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 31, 2021 22:06:56 GMT -5
The Krantz Films episodes (produced by Ralph Bakshi with storyboards by GRAY MORROW) have one really outstanding thing about them: the Library Music tracks.
It took me a lot of years to appreciate those cartoons, and when I did, it was MOSTLY for the music.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 23:10:26 GMT -5
The Krantz Films episodes (produced by Ralph Bakshi with storyboards by GRAY MORROW) have one really outstanding thing about them: the Library Music tracks. It took me a lot of years to appreciate those cartoons, and when I did, it was MOSTLY for the music. I should have mentioned that earlier as well, my son recorded me an entire album of the Krantz era music tracks a few years ago...I could not agree more and probably listen to music from it at least a couple of times a week.
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Post by tarkintino on Dec 31, 2021 23:31:04 GMT -5
It always felt like The Green Goblin just took cheap shots at Peter Parker like some petulant child - "I can't kill you but I can kill your girlfriend" - whereas to Doctor Octopus, defeating Spider-Man was merely step six in a ten step process. A villain who solely wants to destroy the good guy just seems too needy and too desperate to really garner much respect. And man, almost marrying his Aunt - if I cared about making things personal with Spider-Man, I think that would be one hell of a creative way at getting to him. Sure, every time Peter Parker thinks about Gwen he's going to think of The Green Goblin, but how about every time he sits down for dinner he has to sit across from Doctor Octopus? AND mind his manners? "Now Peter, you know it's not polite to pick up your utensils before your new Uncle Ben has a chance to say Grace..." The Aunt May business was never going to go anywhere, since the creatives simply were not going to place her in any situation that would lead to her death. In fact, Octopus' most dangerous, and impactful moment was not anything associated with Aunt May but his causing the death of Captain Stacy (and he did not care about the building's debris which would kill innocents on the street in the moments before). The Goblin reserved a hatred of both sides of Parker, and at no time did he care about his psychotic behavior potentially exposing his other, life' one great example of this is the party depicted in The Spectacular Spider-Man #2 (1968 magazine), where he constantly prods and goads Parker (being physically violent with him at one point), no longer caring about the other guests' presence, until he (after Parker's smoke bomb diversion) yells for Parker to reveal himself. Osborn knowing who Parker was made him a non-stop threat to his entire life, unlike his relationship to any other villain, which is one of the many reasons its Marvel's greatest hero vs. villain story. As noted above, he was just as hateful / attempting to kill while out of costume, seen in pretty much every appearance of Osborn in the Lee/Romita/Conway eras. Jameson was obsessed, but at the end of it all, he was not in the grip of murderous psychopathy like Osborn. Perhaps Jameson's worst, or most "villainous" showing was in The Amazing Spider-Man #123, where he hired Luke Cage to capture Spider-Man "Dead or alive", but the irony there was that he was motivated by his belief that Spider-Man murdered... Osborn.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 1, 2022 0:14:59 GMT -5
I’m comforted there are, as yet, no votes for Venom or Carnage.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,051
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Post by Confessor on Jan 1, 2022 1:07:11 GMT -5
Scorpion and Green Goblin for me. It ain't easy being green, you know?
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Post by chadwilliam on Jan 1, 2022 21:08:45 GMT -5
It always felt like The Green Goblin just took cheap shots at Peter Parker like some petulant child - "I can't kill you but I can kill your girlfriend" - whereas to Doctor Octopus, defeating Spider-Man was merely step six in a ten step process. A villain who solely wants to destroy the good guy just seems too needy and too desperate to really garner much respect. And man, almost marrying his Aunt - if I cared about making things personal with Spider-Man, I think that would be one hell of a creative way at getting to him. Sure, every time Peter Parker thinks about Gwen he's going to think of The Green Goblin, but how about every time he sits down for dinner he has to sit across from Doctor Octopus? AND mind his manners? "Now Peter, you know it's not polite to pick up your utensils before your new Uncle Ben has a chance to say Grace..." The Aunt May business was never going to go anywhere, since the creatives simply were not going to place her in any situation that would lead to her death. In fact, Octopus' most dangerous, and impactful moment was not anything associated with Aunt May but his causing the death of Captain Stacy (and he did not care about the building's debris which would kill innocents on the street in the moments before). The Goblin reserved a hatred of both sides of Parker, and at no time did he care about his psychotic behavior potentially exposing his other, life' one great example of this is the party depicted in The Spectacular Spider-Man #2 (1968 magazine), where he constantly prods and goads Parker (being physically violent with him at one point), no longer caring about the other guests' presence, until he (after Parker's smoke bomb diversion) yells for Parker to reveal himself. Osborn knowing who Parker was made him a non-stop threat to his entire life, unlike his relationship to any other villain, which is one of the many reasons its Marvel's greatest hero vs. villain story. As noted above, he was just as hateful / attempting to kill while out of costume, seen in pretty much every appearance of Osborn in the Lee/Romita/Conway eras. Jameson was obsessed, but at the end of it all, he was not in the grip of murderous psychopathy like Osborn. Perhaps Jameson's worst, or most "villainous" showing was in The Amazing Spider-Man #123, where he hired Luke Cage to capture Spider-Man "Dead or alive", but the irony there was that he was motivated by his belief that Spider-Man murdered... Osborn. A good case for The Green Goblin and I do concede that there's a lot more tension to be gained from Norman Osborn regaining his Goblin memories from being exposed to the most innocuous of triggers than there is from Octopus or anybody else busting free from prison, but I think it comes down to my preference for a villain who smugly considers himself above everything and everyone to a foe who suffers from that "you complete me" complex (though to be honest, I might have been more open to this trope if my perception hadn't been colored by decades of awful Joker stories abusing it). Doc Ock unmasking Spider-Man in issue 12 and discarding him like a ragdoll impresses me more than The Green Goblin making this his obsession. Though, yes, there is a lot to be said for The Goblin's 'raze the land and salt the earth' approach to smiting his foes. So, I'll go with Doc Ock, Jameson, and The Green Goblin in that order (not including Venom and Carnage of course, who I think it goes without saying are Number One and Two respectively).
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