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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 24, 2021 15:07:34 GMT -5
Kirby says: Jump THIS shark, Fonzarelli!
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 24, 2021 17:11:54 GMT -5
"Jumping the shark"
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Post by kirby101 on Dec 24, 2021 17:57:43 GMT -5
An orca is a mammal, not a shark profh. Why didn't you use this one?
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Post by beyonder1984 on Dec 25, 2021 10:27:19 GMT -5
Marvel G.I. Joe Yearbook #3 was the apex of good quality. Then it jumped the shark probably with #55, although I stuck around until #100. In #55, Cobra Commander unmasked but put on beatnik makeup so we never saw his real face, and was "killed" by Raptor of all people. In the same issue Destro and Snake-Eyes also unmasked but it was a bait-and-switch situation. My friends at school were no longer interested in Joes anymore around that time.
For the comic book industry as a whole, I could see an argument based on sales that the death of the newsstand and focus on direct market LCS to target older guys killed comics' mainstream appeal. But superheroes were resurrected in the movies.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Dec 25, 2021 11:29:44 GMT -5
Marvel G.I. Joe Yearbook #3 was the apex of good quality. Then it jumped the shark probably with #55, although I stuck around until #100. Wasn't G.I. Joe Yearbook #3 published after G.I. Joe #55?
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Post by Mormel on Dec 25, 2021 13:35:48 GMT -5
Ouch! Like Rags said, one person's "jump the shark" comic can be another's "jump on point", and in my case Uncanny X-Men 188-193 were the first bunch of issues that got me into collecting the Merry Mutants' adventures, with Rachel Summers being particularly close to my heart But I can see why that period with Paul Smith ending his short tenure and JRJR picking up could have been off-putting to long time readers. Claremont introduces some very peculiar dialogue tics (like pasting two words together into a new one, or rendering characters' distress as long run on sentences without spaces) and the stories get more dependent on having read tie-in issues from other on-going series or mini-series. That being said, I will always adore stories like 'Madness', 'Rogue: Public Enemy', 'Lifedeath 1 & 2', 'The Trial of Magneto', and 'Duel'. I like how the X-Men and the New Mutants are living together in the mansion in these years and there is a sense that, amid all the angst and dread, both teams find the time to unwind and have fun every once in a while. Now for me personally, while originally collecting the back issues, where X-Men lost me was after Mutant Massacre-- Cyclops, Rachel, Kitty, Kurt, and Colossus (briefly) depart and the new recruits like Longshot or Dazzler just wouldn't grow on me at first. The team got more 'proactive', got less and less squeamish about using lethal force against villains if they felt it was unavoidable, and the book just seemed way more action-heavy and a lot less character-driven. The new setting post-Fall Of The Mutants, in the Outback, felt colder and lonelier to me than the Xavier Institute. Later I came to appreciate the Fall Of the Mutants-Inferno era a lot more, but they're still not my favourite stretch of X-Men stories.
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 25, 2021 14:29:56 GMT -5
I'll say what probably nobody else ever has. I NEVER really liked Chris Claremont's writing on X-MEN. The whole damned time I was reading it, it was mainly the art that kept me interested. Dave Cockrum was and remains one of my favorites, but I would have rather he stayed on THE AVENGERS. When John Byrne started out at Marvel, I wasn't sure he even knew how to draw. Dan Adkins and Terry Austin managed to tighten up his "cartoony" excesses, but I probably would have preferred if Byrne & Austin had done more than just a single STARLORD story (instead of that character getting a new art team ALMOST every story).
Reading about how Claremont & Byrne were not really operating on the same level and in the same story dierection and the confusion and chaos that caused had me shaking my head, and when Jim Shooter stepped in at the VERY LAST minute on a yearlong storyline to alter its ending was jaw-dropping (and I find it interesting that nobody ever seems to bring up editor Jim Salicrup's involvement in this-- or the fact that he LEFT the book right after this happened). Having Dave Cockrum return was nice, but it eventually became distressing when he wound up leaving in the middle of an outer-space story not once but TWICE. I could put up with Paul Smith to a degree, but he was SO MUCH better when he later worked on NEXUS, alternating with Steve Rude. I've often wondered why more editors didn't do something like that to keep a monthly book coming out very month.
When Smith was replaced by JR Jr. and Dan Green-- MY GOODNESS-- a penciller (layout guy) who never really looked good to me except when Bob Layton was doing finishes (not inks) on top of him-- and an inker whose work had gotten looser and sloppier the longer he worked for Marvel-- it was too much. If I hadn't allowed my reading to get so far behind, I probably would have DROPPED the book a lot quicker than I did. When I got around to reading those issues, it was jaw-dropping how awful they were. Miserable art, and nothing whatsoever disguising how MISERABLE the writing was anymore.
For years afterwards, I kept running across comments from fans about how bad X-MEN had gotten and how they were finally fed up with it-- but this was years and then more years after I quit. And I've never gone back.
The really shocking thing was a few years ago, when I re-read "The Dark Phoenix Saga" in a TPB I somehow had gotten ahold of. And... I could not believe HOW AWFUL I found every single aspect of it to be. And this was the story that for decades after, was considered the all-time high point best-ever X-MEN story. Really? Geez.
The only X-MEN I've enjoyed in the last 20 years has been the first 2 movies... and the "LOGAN" film. Although the latter was apparently inspired by a mini-series, what really shocked me was finding out that Jack Kirby had written a VERY-similar story in the late 1950s... years before he ever put X-MEN together in the first place. In the movies, Professor X was written better than he'd been since the Jack Kirby run of the original series, while Logan was written better than he'd EVER been in any of the comics.
I'd say X-MEN jumped the shark twice in the 60s: first, when they killed off Professor X, then, when they claimed he'd faked his own death. OY. He was never the same after that.
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Post by kirby101 on Dec 25, 2021 14:44:27 GMT -5
Oh, Wow!
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 25, 2021 14:56:41 GMT -5
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 25, 2021 15:09:09 GMT -5
Spider-Man jumped the shark when they killed Uncle Ben!
The Fantastic Four jumped the shark when they started wearing costumes!
Batman jumped the shark when he got a sidekick!
Superman jumped the shark when he stopped his vendetta against reckless drivers!
The Doom Patrol jumped the shark pretty much every issue!
Captain America jumped the shark when he got a round shield!
Wonder Woman jumped the shark when she left Paradise Island!
The Hulk jumped the shark when he turned green!
There! I said it!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 25, 2021 16:27:17 GMT -5
Superman jumped the shark when he stopped his vendetta against reckless drivers! I 100% agree with this.
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Post by dbutler69 on Dec 25, 2021 16:56:33 GMT -5
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Post by dbutler69 on Dec 25, 2021 16:58:00 GMT -5
Spider-Man jumped the shark when they killed Uncle Ben! The Fantastic Four jumped the shark when they started wearing costumes! Batman jumped the shark when he got a sidekick! Superman jumped the shark when he stopped his vendetta against reckless drivers! The Doom Patrol jumped the shark pretty much every issue! Captain America jumped the shark when he got a round shield! Wonder Woman jumped the shark when she left Paradise Island! The Hulk jumped the shark when he turned green! There! I said it! The X-Men jumped the shark when Iceman stopped looking like Frosty the Snowman and Professor X stopped lusting after Jean!
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Post by commond on Dec 25, 2021 17:15:12 GMT -5
Marvel G.I. Joe Yearbook #3 was the apex of good quality. Then it jumped the shark probably with #55, although I stuck around until #100. In #55, Cobra Commander unmasked but put on beatnik makeup so we never saw his real face, and was "killed" by Raptor of all people. In the same issue Destro and Snake-Eyes also unmasked but it was a bait-and-switch situation. My friends at school were no longer interested in Joes anymore around that time. Man, if you think G.I. Joe jumped the shark after #55, you should be glad you didn't stick around for the other 55 issues after 100. I was actually still buying G.I. Joe off the stands while Mark Bright was the penciler. You wouldn't believe how bad the art got towards the end.
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Post by commond on Dec 25, 2021 17:26:17 GMT -5
Later I came to appreciate the Fall Of the Mutants-Inferno era a lot more, but they're still not my favourite stretch of X-Men stories. This was the era where I began collecting comics. In retrospect, goodness knows how I followed the storylines. I must have been attracted to the costumes. I have no real desire to re-read the X-Men of my youth, but I am not against writers taking a book in a different direction. It would have been impossible for Claremont to have such a long run on the X-books if he didn't try different things. Folks may not like the direction he took things in, but the X-Men would have gotten stale if he had simply rehashed Claremont & Byrne stories, or Claremont & Cockrum stories. Peter David was the same with his long Hulk run. He was constantly taking the book in new directions. I don't have a problem with that. Look at how burned out Lee and Kirby were at the end of their Fantastic Four run, or how Dave Sim lost his way on Cerebus (now there's a series that must have jumped the shark for everybody at some point, no?) Folks are quick to use the jump the shark meme when in reality they've simply lost interest in the book. I'm pretty sure there are some folks who think Astro City, Stray Bullets and Love and Rockets have jumped the shark, but they're still titles where I want to read the latest installment.
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