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Post by tarkintino on Sept 20, 2021 12:56:46 GMT -5
That never happened. It's a lie, I can't hear you. NANANANANAAA! Well, according to the latest retcon, they never really slept together. It was all false memories and clones, part of a plot by Harry and Mysterio. Or Kindred, or somebody. Not really paying attention. Man, you need a CIA decryption program to figure out what's what with Marvel's tinkering with that chapter of Spider-Man history. That said, if the story now upends / eliminates that Gwen / Norman Osborn crap, I tip my hat to the writers.
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Post by beyonder1984 on Oct 11, 2021 8:20:06 GMT -5
Oh, and along similar lines, is "Obese guy is actually in peak physical condition/all muscle" an overused trope or is it just something which feels like it given the number of times it's been brought up when The Kingpin makes an appearance? It's been used for The Penguin on at least two occasions I can recall (one of which utilized the cliched montage of 'Penguin lifting weights, Penguin doing karate, shirtless Penguin showing off pecs and bulging bi-ceps') but I can't honestly cite more characters who have had this idea applied to them off the top of my head.
It doesn't bother me because I don't think it's really used all that often. The Kingpin is the prime example. Penguin is fairly recent, used to justify his long-standing ability to challenge Batman even briefly using his brolly as a sword. There's also Tobias Whale but he's just an overt Kingpin clone anyway.
I don't disagree, just want to add about fat characters in general: In pro wrestling a ''fat" wrestler automatically is stronger too. My friend mentioned with the popularity of MMA in modern times, out of shape wrestlers being shown to be superior is a bad trope. Also in comics, The Blob and Big Bertha are shown to use their weight to their advantage.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 12, 2022 10:49:41 GMT -5
Not sure if it's used any more, but how about 'Villain gets conked on the head and reverts to his normal decent personality and despite suspicious police officer standing nearby stating 'aw, he's just faking', hero says, 'No, somehow I don't think so'.'
Spider-Man: Time to go back to prison, Green Goblin! Green Goblin: The 'green' what? My name is Norman Osborn and the last thing I remember is promising my loser son that we'd bake cupcakes today.
Why does the hero immediately buy this? Does lying not exist in the superhero world?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2022 10:15:50 GMT -5
Not sure if this counts as a trope, but fed up of UK legal dramas where the judge does all the speaking in court, making the barristers’ roles redundant. In fact, in one episode of the TV series Judge John Deed, one barrister said to Deed, “My lord, may I remind you that I am trying this case.” In another episode, Deed droned on for ages, seemingly interrogating a witness; the prosecutor sighed, rolled her eyes and sat down.
Deed is forever “playing the role” of prosecutor and defender. The character is a bit of a maverick, but similar things have occurred in other legal dramas.
Yet as I work my way through my Perry Mason boxset, that seems totally different. Judges rarely speak in that series, we usually just get an occasional comment such as, “I’ll accept this evidence.” Or, “Your objection is noted.” I prefer that, I want to see a drama where the prosecutor and defender get to speak.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 15, 2022 5:49:33 GMT -5
According to most comics, being shot through the shoulder isn't really a problem; barely an inconvenience!
The same goes for being punched in the head so hard that you lose consciousness. Concussion be damned, a hero in good standing can awaken and resume fighting without much more than a "where am I? Ah, yes, the fight with Ultron".
I think the only time I saw the matter addressed seriously was in the Jim Shooter-Alan Weiss Avengers story in which Don Blake explains that you can't just keep knocking out the Molecule Man without injuring him severely.
That relative invulnerability trope annoyed me from a very early age, starting in a 6 Million Dollar Man episode in which two guys with bionic arms (but no bionic jaws) kept trading blows to the head. Young me wondered why their jaws didn't fly right off.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jun 15, 2022 7:11:46 GMT -5
According to most comics, being shot through the shoulder isn't really a problem; barely an inconvenience! Roger that. There was an episode of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, in its third or fourth season, after the show's format changed from serious Cold-War drama to ridiculous monster-of-the-week tripe. It included a scene in which Admiral Nelson and Chief Sharkey are confronting the episode's villain, who's holding Our Heroes at bay with a Colt .45 semi-automatic. The bad guy, from eight-to-ten feet away, shoots Chief Sharkey in the left shoulder, about six inches above and slightly left of his breast pocket. Those of us who have used a .45 semi-automatic know what should happen: the round would've shattered Sharkey's shoulder and likely detached the humerus of his left arm from its socket; the impact would've knocked him to the deck; and the hydrostatic shock would've rendered him unconscious or nearly so, that is, if it didn't kill him outright---a real possibility. What did happen in the scene was Sharkey groaned softly, drew his shoulder back slightly at the impact, remained standing, looked at the bullet hole in his shirt, and mildly winced as he and the admiral contnued to face off the villain. As you said, "barely an inconvenience." I was willing to tolerate puppets and vegetable men taking over Seaview, but that was the scene that snapped my suspended disbelief.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 15, 2022 8:13:20 GMT -5
According to most comics, being shot through the shoulder isn't really a problem; barely an inconvenience! Roger that. There was an episode of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, in its third or fourth season, after the show's format changed from serious Cold-War drama to ridiculous monster-of-the-week tripe. It included a scene in which Admiral Nelson and Chief Sharkey are confronting the episode's villain, holding Our Heroes at bay with a Colt .45 semi-automatic. The bad guy, from eight-to-ten feet away, shoots Chief Sharkey in the left shoulder, about six inches above and slightly left of his breast pocket. Those of us who have used a .45 semi-automatic know what should happen: the round would've shattered Sharkey's shoulder and likely detached the humerus of his left arm from its socket; the impact would've knocked him to the deck; and the hydrostatic shock would've rendered him unconscious or nearly so, that is, if it didn't kill him outright---a real possibility. What did happen in the scene was Sharkey groaned softly, drew his shoulder back slightly at the impact, remained standing, looked at the bullet hole in his shirt, and mildly winced as he and the admiral contnued to face off the villain. As you said, "barely an inconvenience." I was willing to tolerate puppets and vegetable men taking over Seaview, but that was the scene that snapped my suspended disbelief. Aww, give Irwin Allen a break; Sharkey was the semi-comic relief and popular, so he had to recover fast enough to jump into the Flying Sub and dodge panel explosions in the following episode!
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Post by Professor Echo on Jun 15, 2022 16:05:56 GMT -5
Roger that. There was an episode of Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, in its third or fourth season, after the show's format changed from serious Cold-War drama to ridiculous monster-of-the-week tripe. It included a scene in which Admiral Nelson and Chief Sharkey are confronting the episode's villain, who's holding Our Heroes at bay with a Colt .45 semi-automatic. The bad guy, from eight-to-ten feet away, shoots Chief Sharkey in the left shoulder, about six inches above and slightly left of his breast pocket. Those of us who have used a .45 semi-automatic know what should happen: the round would've shattered Sharkey's shoulder and likely detached the humerus of his left arm from its socket; the impact would've knocked him to the deck; and the hydrostatic shock would've rendered him unconscious or nearly so, that is, if it didn't kill him outright---a real possibility. What did happen in the scene was Sharkey groaned softly, drew his shoulder back slightly at the impact, remained standing, looked at the bullet hole in his shirt, and mildly winced as he and the admiral contnued to face off the villain. As you said, "barely an inconvenience." I was willing to tolerate puppets and vegetable men taking over Seaview, but that was the scene that snapped my suspended disbelief. Actually if he hadn’t of responded that way to being shot, his god awful toupee might have gone sailing into a torpedo tube and that would have hurt him much more than the .45 semi-automatic.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 15, 2022 17:53:38 GMT -5
There was a scene in Lawrence Kasdan's Grand Canyon where Steve Martin, playing a Michael Bay-type action movie director, gets shot in the shoulder that is astonishing in its realistic depiction of the aftermath. He doesn't shrug it off or make clever quips. He collapses into a twitching heap, pissing himself and puking and ultimately going into shock. It was as bold a case of audience expectation subversion as this film freak has ever seen.
Cei-U! I summon the jaw-dropping cinematic twist!
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Post by tonebone on Jun 22, 2022 7:59:47 GMT -5
There was a scene in Lawrence Kasdan's Grand Canyon where Steve Martin, playing a Michael Bay-type action movie director, gets shot in the shoulder that is astonishing in its realistic depiction of the aftermath. He doesn't shrug it off or make clever quips. He collapses into a twitching heap, pissing himself and puking and ultimately going into shock. It was as bold a case of audience expectation subversion as this film freak has ever seen. Cei-U! I summon the jaw-dropping cinematic twist! That was a really good movie, but that scene has really stuck with me all these years later. It's amazing how many action movies now show people being shot as a bloodless, minor inconvenience.
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Post by mistermets on Jul 3, 2022 20:11:19 GMT -5
One trope that bothers me is the hero just consistently stumbling into unusual adventures.
If there's a story engine or a narrative explanation, I'm fine with that. I like the reveal in Doctor Who that the Tardis sends the Doctor to places he'll be needed.
But it bothers me if a superhero gets mugged on a weekly basis.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 7:59:20 GMT -5
Military shows/movies where it seems just a few commissioned officers run everything.
Where were the NCOs and the like in A Few Good Men? I love the film, but it seemed that a colonel, lieutenant colonel and lieutenant were running everything in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. An NCO in that scene might have made it believable.
Star Trek: TNG had a ship that seemed to be run almost entirely by a handful of officers. In TOS, it did seem more busy, especially engineering. There were often guys in overalls working around Scotty. In TNG, Engineering seemed virtually empty at times.
Just adds a little if they include supporting characters. In The A-Team, I like how Colonel Lynch and Colonel Decker had soldiers with them while pursing the A-Team; yet when Brigadier General Fulbright was introduced, he seemed to be running around on his own a lot, hoping to catch the Team.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jul 6, 2022 10:50:19 GMT -5
Military shows/movies where it seems just a few commissioned officers run everything. One of the more pronounced examples of this was the television series I referenced in remarks on another trope--- Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea (ABC, 1964-8). For those of you who never saw the show, or you did, but just weren't paying attention, the basis of the show was the missions of S.S.R.N. Seaview, a highly advanced nuclear submarine designed by Admiral Harriman Nelson, U. S. Navy, retired. According to the premise, Seaview was a civilian vessel, designed primarily for marine research. However, it was also outfitted as a warship, part of the nation's nuclear triad, and, as such, was a vessel of the Naval Reserve. It could be conscripted into active duty as the needs of the Navy required. The officers and crew of Seaview were arranged in a hierarchy which resembled the rank structure of the U.S. Navy. However, their civilian status was reflected in their uniforms. Their working uniforms had minor differences from those of the U. S. Navy at the time, while their dress uniforms were distinctively discrete from those of the Navy. These differences stood out in the first season in particular, when the show depicted Navy personnel interacting with Seaview's officers and men. For the purposes of driver1980's point, though, there was no practical difference between the Seaview crew and the Navy. The first season of the show was the most realistic with regard to a submarine's complement and table of organisation. In that first year, besides ADM Nelson, the only officers regularly featured were Commander Crane (the commanding officer) and Lieutenant Commander Morton (the executive officer). However, several junior officers were frequently seen. Sometimes, in group scenes, such as staff meetings. Other times, one or two standing watch in the control room. The engineer officer was referred to from time to time. These junior officers did not usually get speaking parts---they were background---unless an episode's plot involved an officer on board, which proved to be the case on occasion. The point, though, is that the show did attempt to replicate an actual boat's crew, with the staffing it needed to fill watch assignments and standing billets. (I'll discuss the enlisted members of the crew in a bit.) It was especially effective in that first season which presented solid and dramatic Cold War-based plots. As the show progressed, it turned away from stories of intrigue to fanciful monster/alien-of-the-week tales. This is when driver1980's trope kicked in. The officer complement of Seaview dropped to Nelson and Crane and Morton, with occasional appearances by the boat's doctor (played by Richard Bull) and the communications officer (Arch Whiting). All of those junior officers who would be department heads and division officers and would be standing watch in the control room and engineering---they were all gone. It was five officers running the whole submarine. And since one was a flag officer and one was the captain, that pretty much left Chip Morton stuck with doing the officer gruntwork. The depiction of the enlisted hierarchy on Seaview was never realistic. From the beginning, we saw only one chief petty officer, whom, by default, had to be chief-of-the-boat. After a season, Chief Jones was replaced by Chief Sharkey. (Henry Kulky, who portrayed Jones, died.) But that was it for any senior enlisted on the boat. Only in one episode do I recall seeing another C.P.O. on board Seaview, and that was because the plot required an enemy agent to infiltrate Seaview as a senior enlisted man in order to sabotage the sub. Below Chief Jones/Sharkey, there was no enlisted rank structure; no-one to stand as watch supervisors or head work details. It was just the chief and then every other enlisted man. It really didn't matter, though, because outside of three deckplate sailors seen regularly---Kowalsky, Patterson, and Riley---the rest of the ordinary seamen on board were redshirts (before Star Trek inspired the term "redshirts"), who existed only to get killed, vaporised, or devoured by that week's enemy spy/invading alien/hostile creature. For three of the show's four seasons, Seaview was essentially run by five officers, one chief, and three seamen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 11:37:41 GMT -5
Great explanation, Commander.
I do think details matter. I am watching UFO on Blu-ray. One of the many things that makes it credible is how busy an organization SHADO is. There are the top guys such as Commander Straker, but it looks very busy, with all sorts of people performing vital functions. Yes, the show will focus on Straker, Colonel Freeman and Colonel Foster, but SHADO seems like such a hive of activity.
And Straker, Freeman and Foster don’t have to do everything. They delegate. Straker isn’t piloting a craft every 5 minutes, or taking on every task himself in a Kirk-like fashion. Even if it’s just a guest star that we never see again, the frontline personnel are focused on.
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Post by Commander Benson on Jul 6, 2022 11:58:21 GMT -5
You are spot-on about U.F.O. defying the trope.
I blew off U.F.O. during its original U. S. run in 1971. But, a couple of years ago, I caught up with it on YouTube. I was impressed with the interpersonal drama---a science-fiction series which placed more emphasis on critical judgements and the weight of command decisions than on flying saucers and alien creatures.
If you haven't gotten to it yet, keep an eye out for the episode "Confetti Check A-O.K." I've never seen a better example of the lonely, grinding pressure of command. It's my favourite episode of the series. (If you haven't seen it yet, don't jump to it until you've got at least four or five episodes under your belt. One needs to have a good grasp of Commander Straker's personality and dedication to duty for "Confetti Check A-O.K." to have a real impact. Particularly, the last scene.)
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