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Post by impulse on Jun 3, 2021 10:10:26 GMT -5
This is always an interesting topic. Like the consensus here, I cannot recognize a consistent pattern in my own ability to ignore or not. I try to separate the art from the artist, but depending how egregious or obvious the offense was, it can be hard. Riffing on some examples.
Disappointing to learn Whedon is a dick. Will it taint The Avengers for me? Probably not, because he was just one of many people involved making a large great movie that led into something much larger I enjoy. Will I seek out and buy episodes of his next pet-project show? Probably not.
Orson Scott Card is not just upsetting, but I find him bewildering. I was mouth-agape floored when I learned about his homophobic rantings and support of some despicable groups, not just because of what he said, but because I could not understand how the same person that wrote Ender's Game had the capacity to hold such views. The amount of empathy and understanding the concept of love for the other REQUIRED to write that book seems fundamentally incompatible with bigoted views, but here you are. His frequency and quality of output have waned recently, particularly since his stroke, so it's less of a pressing dilemma for me these days, I was a big fan of a lot of his work before I found out. He still seems like a walking contradiction to me.
I was never a big watcher of the Cosby show, but I enjoyed some of his other work as a kid. I don't think I can ever look at him the same again, but his crime seems even worse since he portrayed himself and in fact built his very career on a virtuous and wholesome image, so it makes the impact hit even harder.
If you dig deeply enough, I'm sure you can find someone who has said or done something you find offensive in nearly anything you can buy, so unless you go completely off-grid and become wholly independent, it is impossible to fully cut out people you disagree with. It's tricky to find out where your individual line is.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 3, 2021 10:25:22 GMT -5
If you dig deeply enough, I'm sure you can find someone who has said or done something you find offensive in nearly anything you can buy, so unless you go completely off-grid and become wholly independent, it is impossible to fully cut out people you disagree with. It's tricky to find out where your individual line is. Heck, there are plenty of opinions I once held firmly that I find offensive today. That's why I never buy my books. |
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Post by tonebone on Jun 4, 2021 14:03:18 GMT -5
I can mostly give comic book writers and artists a "get out of jail free card" for their interactions with fans at con's. It seems to me that fandom interaction is a difficult concept. Most comic book creating is done in a vacuum as the creators work at home alone (for the most part) with few personal face to face discussions. Fans in turn can be damnably irritating and demanding and overwhelming in person with little regards to civility or politeness. I can recognize most creators are at a con not for their vacation or a day out but for making some extra money. Like working in retail (which I have done) or dealing with the public on a personal level (again done in a hospital) it all depends upon how both sides are behaving or acting on any given moment. So "rude" I can forgive unless said "star" is consistently and proudly wearing his ass hat in public. Examples from my own con interactions. Met Neal Adam's & watched at his booth. If you were spending enormous amounts at his table he devotes his full attention and is amiable, but if just passing through for an autograph or 1 print spending very little he is very abrupt moving on to the next lucrative sale. Met Denys Cowan, very open, approachable and personal at his discussion panel but at his table was never off of his cellphone and never spoke to or acknowledged a fan when at his table. Both of these might be considered rude or inconsiderate in dealing with the public but neither made me consider them being jerks, ruining my appreciation of their artistic contributions. This type of behavior really bugs me and I haven't (thankfully) seen it a lot in person at cons. Neal Adams is pretty universally known for being friendly but mercenary. That's fair, I guess. The Denys Cowan example is terrible. It gives me the same revulsion that I feel when the cashier in the supermarket is bitching to his coworker about how much he hates his job, while he is ringing up my groceries. He is there, essentially, to serve his customers. Either they are paying him for commissions, or wanting to meet him after paying his bills for years. Either way, the customer deserves his full attention, and deserves to be treated like a paying customer. Otherwise, he should stay home and talk on the phone there. Your example cited above is how you push your customers away for good. |
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Post by brutalis on Jun 4, 2021 14:19:29 GMT -5
I can mostly give comic book writers and artists a "get out of jail free card" for their interactions with fans at con's. It seems to me that fandom interaction is a difficult concept. Most comic book creating is done in a vacuum as the creators work at home alone (for the most part) with few personal face to face discussions. Fans in turn can be damnably irritating and demanding and overwhelming in person with little regards to civility or politeness. I can recognize most creators are at a con not for their vacation or a day out but for making some extra money. Like working in retail (which I have done) or dealing with the public on a personal level (again done in a hospital) it all depends upon how both sides are behaving or acting on any given moment. So "rude" I can forgive unless said "star" is consistently and proudly wearing his ass hat in public. Examples from my own con interactions. Met Neal Adam's & watched at his booth. If you were spending enormous amounts at his table he devotes his full attention and is amiable, but if just passing through for an autograph or 1 print spending very little he is very abrupt moving on to the next lucrative sale. Met Denys Cowan, very open, approachable and personal at his discussion panel but at his table was never off of his cellphone and never spoke to or acknowledged a fan when at his table. Both of these might be considered rude or inconsiderate in dealing with the public but neither made me consider them being jerks, ruining my appreciation of their artistic contributions. This type of behavior really bugs me and I haven't (thankfully) seen it a lot in person at cons. Neal Adams is pretty universally known for being friendly but mercenary. That's fair, I guess. The Denys Cowan example is terrible. It gives me the same revulsion that I feel when the cashier in the supermarket is bitching to his coworker about how much he hates his job, while he is ringing up my groceries. He is there, essentially, to serve his customers. Either they are paying him for commissions, or wanting to meet him after paying his bills for years. Either way, the customer deserves his full attention, and deserves to be treated like a paying customer. Otherwise, he should stay home and talk on the phone there. Your example cited above is how you push your customers away for good. Neither aspect really bothers or upsets me as I also know fans are just as bad. Show up with a box of 5comics expecting a creator to sign dozens or more copies for free. Seen that many times. Seen "fans" stand in line waiting their turn to NOT buy a signature or sketch just so the can tell the creator how much they dislike their stuff. Seen that. Watch fans totally ignore creators that are sotting with nobody at their table, walking by without saying a word to stand in loooong lines for whatever "hot" creator is there. Seen that. It all goes both ways. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 14:27:06 GMT -5
What about supporting people who were personally rude at a show?
A friend of mine got a snarky response from a guy whose band she was quite devoted to. And she fired back a response that probably made him wet his pants.
Did she think he was a complete dick? Yes. Did she stop supporting the band? Nope. We laugh about it now.
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Post by berkley on Jun 4, 2021 18:22:36 GMT -5
This is why for the most part I think I would rather not meet creators, writers, artists, musicicans, actors, athletes, etc whose work I happen to enjoy or even admire.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 4, 2021 19:25:00 GMT -5
This is why for the most part I think I would rather not meet creators, writers, artists, musicicans, actors, athletes, etc whose work I happen to enjoy or even admire. It is a risk but there are plenty of great folks that are 100 degrees the opposite and are so worthwhile talking with. Spent a wonderful 30 minutes talking to Herb Trimpe and his love of aviation a year before he passed away. Had another great 20 minute conversation with Mike Grell about Warlord, Jon Sable and archery and Africa. I spent 20+ minutes talking to Joe Staton about his influences and doing the Dick Tracy newspaper strip. So many other highlights of wondrous interactions with creators of comic books I grew up with. Each one worth the time and effort for being polite, respectful, caring, sensitive, personable and dealing with them as a person. I had opportunities to speak with, meet and say THANK YOU to many people I admire and were a part of my youth. Faceless names for the most part when I read their stories growing up but at a Con I had some childhood dreams come true. How can anyone not want such interactions? |
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Post by impulse on Jun 4, 2021 20:50:51 GMT -5
I met Chris Claremont at a con. He was every bit as cordial as he presents himself online and in print.
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Post by shaxper on Jun 5, 2021 10:43:31 GMT -5
I met Chris Claremont at a con. He was every bit as cordial as he presents himself online and in print. he held up a long line of visibly annoyed fanboys to chat up my (then) two year old about Kitty Pryde once. The fans had stacks of comics they were ready to pay him to sign; she had one favorite book. The man was a total class act. I've had a lot more positive interactions, but it's amazing how easily one bad exchange can outweigh all the good ones. That being said, creators and celebrities who have been genuinely NICE to me and my family: Stan Sakai George Perez Chris Claremont Guy Davis Sergio Aragones Matt Wagner Marina Sirtis Dwight Schultz Tia Carrere Brian Tochi Folks I think I'd rather have not met: Brent Spiner Bill Shatner Don Rosa David Peterson Tom Savini Margot Kidder* (she wasn't mean; she was...odd) And I think summarizing Neal Adams as friendly but mercenary is 100% accurate and fair. Having worked for him at two different conventions and having had the opportunity to chat him up quite a bit, I feel comfortable asserting that he is there to make money, not reminisce about the old days. He espouses no real love for his own work and sincerely doesn't get the big deal folks make over comics, but he is happy to shake your hand and take your cash. Just understand that your praise is meaningless to him. It's like praising the guy in the ticket booth at the local movie theater. He'll be very polite to a paying customer, but it's just a job to him. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 5, 2021 18:09:51 GMT -5
My comic pro interactions haven't been huge, but I've met a few and the closest I ever had to a negative reaction was watching (from a distance) Mark Gruenwald critique some fans artwork. At the time, I thought he sounded like a jerk; but, when I reflect back upon it, he was being honest in appraising what the kid needed to work on to get a shot at a professional assignment. He wasn't rude, but he was forthright. Probably better than sugar coating it and getting some rookies hopes up, when he has a long way to go.
I met Joe Staton, in 1991 and got a sketch of Captain Marvel from him (he should have at least done a Shazam mini or one-shot). I'm a bit shy until I get to know people; so, I wasn't the most talkative and he seemed rather quiet, too. We both paused as Marina Sirtis, in a black mini-dress and heels, walked past the table to go to a Q&A. I had to retrieve my tongue. I never thought much of her on Next Gen (never a major fan of the series, as a whole); but, damn she was gorgeous in person. She was a hoot, too, at the Q&A and I just shook my head at how the writers were missing out writing for her sense of humor. Same convention I met Mark Singer and had him sign "Happy Birthday," to my sister, on a Beastmaster 8x10 (she was a fan) and he was perfectly nice and also engaging at his Q&A. Wayne Vansant was cool, but was being monopolized by a pair of military re-enactors, in SS gear, which kind of triggered warnings in my head (especially since the con was in Georgia and these guys seemed less interested in history than snazzy uniforms and power trips). I would have liked to have talked to him more, but I wanted to get away from those guys.
At a Heroes Con, I met:
Gil Kane-pleasant and was surprised by the copy of THUNDER Agents I asked him to sign (hadn't seen one in years)
Most of the then-Legion of Superheroes creative team-Keith Giffen was "playing" the goof, but Tom & Mary Bierbaum were incredibly nice and genuine.
Talked with Dave Dorman about the Kubert School (he had attended, I had applied there and been accepted, but couldn't swing the cash)
Observed Julie Schwartz interact with fans, which was pleasant and jovial, though things I've heard about him since color those memories.
Dick Giordano-had a hearing problem and was hard to converse with.
Met Tom Lyle, not too long after he started on Starman, in Augusta, GA. Super nice guy; talked a bit about his work at Eclipse, which I had only recently been reading.
At a small local con, in Springfield, IL:
Talked for a long time with Doug Rice, while he sketched me a Manhunter figure (Mark Shaw). Met him again the following year and got another sketch and talked about a pulp-inspired project he was working on that never got published. Sounded really cool (1930s aviation/alternate history/pulp adventure). He gave me the sketch for free, said he enjoyed talking with me. Made my day.
Tom Artis-bit off-putting and surrounded by "students" who seemed a little too worshipful. Interacted with him in Barnes & Noble a couple of times (he lived in Springfield), similar vibe. Have read that he had health and family issues, long before his death. Heard other side from local comic shop, based on their dealings with him. Cordial enough at the con; but definitely interested in making money, which I get (especially since he wasn't getting assignments)
Clarke Hawbaker-really nice guy, great artist with a solid foundation caught in the Image era, with a style that was influenced by Neal Adams & Mike Grell. Talked about Grell and the work he did on the Starslayer reprint, at Valiant's Windjammer line. Bought a portfolio and got it signed. Big guy, gentle as a lamb.
Len Strazewski-enjoyed his JSA work, pleasant conversation, commiserated about how he was treated at DC.
At a con in Collinsville, IL (near St Louis, on the IL side of the Mississippi)-Mike Grell-talked off and on for a couple of hours, everything from Warlord, to First Comics, the Legion, what the heck happened with his James Bond project, at Eclipse, Stewart Granger in King Solomon's Mines (inspiration for Sable's safari look) and Kirk Douglas, in the Vikings (Warlord's helmet). Also met Mike Gold, talked about DC & First, told story of how he fired Elliot Maggin, at DC, for not turning in his work assignments for too long and Maggin sucker-punching him at another convention. Gold is a really, really big guy and from Chicago, involved in a lot of historical and community stuff and not someone I'd want to get into a fight with. Then again, I'm 5 ft 6 in. Also met John Ostrander, extremely nice, good panel on writing and writing habits, talked for a bit about his late wife, Kim Yale, who I had met previously (fun lady, smart as a whip, great soul). Also met Norm Breyfogle and Kurt Busiek at that con; both friendly and engaging.
I've met a few authors in my time at B&N: Laura K Hamilton's author photo was way out of date and her fans are weird enough she has contracted security at signings. Richard Riordan (Percy Jackson YA series) really nice guy, former teacher, loves encouraging kids with reading and expressing their imagination. Tamora Pierce was a hoot and a bit of an amateur actress, as she played a couple of pranks on two crowds, at a library engagement. First time, she spoke all shyly and in a halting manner, then subtly kicked into a confident and relaxed and lively tone. Did the second talk as a pseudo-flighty artiste-type. She was a big fan of Don McGregor and the Daughters of the Dragon; not a fan of Marvel's editors, when she worked on White Tiger. They ignored her concerns about how the female protagonist was depicted in some scenes, including poses that suggested rape and was blown off. She swore off working for them. Nice job, guys. Bruce Campbell was sarcastic and fun, as you would expect. Robert Guillame was charming, but appeared to be in declining health; died a few years later.
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Post by MDG on Jun 7, 2021 11:27:25 GMT -5
The most pleasant and personable comics pros I've met, based on multiple occasions, are:
Joe Staton
Berni Wrightson
Al Williamson
Steve Bissette
Shary Flenniken
Neil Volkes
Sam Glanzman
Robert Loren Fleming
Murphy Anderson
There are probably more. I've only found a couple rude, and a couple more who were Jekyll-and-Hyde on different occasions.
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