shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 5, 2021 12:59:30 GMT -5
I was actually thinking of his relationship with Soon-Yi and not the allegations that ensued. What he did was not illegal, but I find it extremely morally questionable to be in a romantic relationship with (or even be able to sexualize) someone who was once your adoptive child. It's the same reason why I as a teacher would never date a former student and would have serious objections if a colleague of mine did. But she was Mia Farrow's adopted child, not his. Soon-Yi and he barely had any contact while he was dating Farrow, and she did not like him then. (She thought he was a sucker for falling for Mia's charm.) She was 21 and in college before they even started connecting socially.
In other words, there was really no kind of relationship at all before then. She was just someone that was there on occasion when he'd visit their house.
Then I guess that makes him no better than the countless adults I know of who date my students' parents while putting inappropriate moves on the students when mom's out of the room. You're right; That's not a clear-cut morally outrageous thing, but it personally makes my skin crawl. My fiance is six years younger than me. In my forties and her thirties, that doesn't mean much. However, if I'd met her while I was in college and she was in middle school, I never would have been able to see her as datable because some part of her would always be that child. In my mind, every adult has a certain level of responsibility towards every child they encounter, and not seeing them as datable is a part of that. Heck, I get creeped out when someone calls one of the Olsen twins hot. And I definitely know how I'd feel if I found out my kids' teachers were using their classes to scan for and groom potential love interests for later down the line because, hey, eventually they won't be kids anymore, or if my ex-wife's boyfriend was thinking about dating my thirteen year old daughter once she becomes legal. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 5, 2021 13:14:03 GMT -5
Yeah, on Woody Allen, I have to say I started to find him really creepy, and it made me look at a lot of his cinematic output differently, when his relationship with Soon Yi came to light (largely for the same reasons that shaxper underscored) - so long before the current crop of accusations became public. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 5, 2021 13:32:17 GMT -5
Even when artists don't have any dark secret or when they didn't commit any truly reprehensible act, I have a hard time appreciating their work when I learn that they treated people like dirt for no good reason. Several of my favourite artists were reported as acting like entitled prima donnas, which definitely damaged my ability to fully enjoy their work.
On the other hand, I always enjoy hearing about how Such and such is a lovely human being on top of being a fantastic creator!
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Apr 5, 2021 13:38:26 GMT -5
Woody and Soon-Yi have been married for twenty-four years, apparently happily. And they've successfully raised two children into adulthood. If they are happy and have made a happy home for others, who am I to judge? (And the "current crop" of accusations are simply a continuation of Farrow's initial accusation made eight months after she learned of the affair with Soon-Yi.)
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 5, 2021 13:41:56 GMT -5
Even when artists don't have any dark secret or when they didn't commit any truly reprehensible act, I have a hard time appreciating their work when I learn that they treated people like dirt for no good reason. Several of my favourite artists were reported as acting like entitled prima donnas, which definitely damaged my ability to fully enjoy their work. On the other hand, I always enjoy hearing about how Such and such is a lovely human being on top of being a fantastic creator! Definitely true that firsthand impressions have more impact. I was a die-hard Trekker for most of my life. In 2005, I began going to conventions specifically to meet the actors whose roles had meant so much to me. I had four genuinely NICE experiences, and then, in 2010, I met Brent Spiner (Data, Star Trek the Next Generation). I had my toddler with me, who had recently begun watching hand-picked episodes with me, though she understood little of it. I'd spent the day building up the idea that we were going to actually meet Data, and she was thrilled. When she met Spiner, she immediately asked where spot (Data's cat) was. He looked uncomfortable and annoyed, and then explained to her brusquely that none of that was real; that was someone else's cat. She was so...confused by his annoyance, and I was furious. I've heard many reports from other fans about how nice Spiner was when they met him. Could be he's just uncomfortable around kids, or that it was a particularly bad day, but it really ruined Trek for me, as well as the desire to ever meet another celebrity. The illusion was shattered, and that bad memory is now always there whenever I turn Trek on. I still watch sometimes, but much of the enjoyment is gone, and that was by no means a purposeful decision. |
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Post by badwolf on Apr 5, 2021 13:44:00 GMT -5
But she was Mia Farrow's adopted child, not his. Soon-Yi and he barely had any contact while he was dating Farrow, and she did not like him then. (She thought he was a sucker for falling for Mia's charm.) She was 21 and in college before they even started connecting socially.
In other words, there was really no kind of relationship at all before then. She was just someone that was there on occasion when he'd visit their house.
Then I guess that makes him no better than the countless adults I know of who date my students' parents while putting inappropriate moves on the students when mom's out of the room. You're right; That's not a clear-cut morally outrageous thing, but it personally makes my skin crawl. My fiance is six years younger than me. In my forties and her thirties, that doesn't mean much. However, if I'd met her while I was in college and she was in middle school, I never would have been able to see her as datable because some part of her would always be that child. In my mind, every adult has a certain level of responsibility towards every child they encounter, and not seeing them as datable is a part of that. Heck, I get creeped out when someone calls one of the Olsen twins hot. And I definitely know how I'd feel if I found out my kids' teachers were using their classes to scan for and groom potential love interests for later down the line because, hey, eventually they won't be kids anymore, or if my ex-wife's boyfriend was thinking about dating my thirteen year old daughter once she becomes legal. He wasn't thinking of dating her at all when she was young. Or even when they finally started hanging out. So I don't think it is the same as any of those things at all. Again, they were essentially strangers before Mia encouraged him to try to connect with her by taking her to a ball game. That was literally the first time they even talked.
At 21, don't you think Soon-Yi had agency? In fact, she has always been the boss in the relationship and in their family. I think all that matters now is that they've been happily married for over two decades, and have raised two wonderful daughters, now in college themselves. They haven't hurt anyone, except a certain person's feelings.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 5, 2021 13:45:12 GMT -5
Woody and Soon-Yi have been married for twenty-four years, apparently happily. And they've successfully raised two children into adulthood. If they are happy and have made a happy home for others, who am I to judge? (And the "current crop" of accusations are simply a continuation of Farrow's initial accusation made eight months after she learned of the affair with Soon-Yi.) A valid counterpoint. I would also point out that couples can get together for all the wrong reasons and still somehow make it work; that doesn't necessarily legitimize the circumstances under which they first got together. But it was a long time ago, and if there is a victim, she certainly doesn't seem to see it that way, or at least doesn't want to play out any concerns/objections she has in front of the media. I'm never going to be comfortable with it, and I think it will probably always haunt his name for me personally, but your perspective is a perfectly reasonable one too. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 5, 2021 13:47:00 GMT -5
At 21, don't you think Soon-Yi had agency? In fact, she has always been the boss in the relationship and in their family. I think all that matters now is that they've been happily married for over two decades, and have raised two wonderful daughters, now in college themselves. They haven't hurt anyone, except a certain person's feelings. We will never know whether he was interested in a younger Soon-Yi and groomed her or not. She doesn't appear to see herself as a victim. That could be proof he did nothing wrong, and it can also be proof of effective child grooming. But to the larger point, this is certainly a gray area and not a clear cut case of a celebrity being awful and disgusting. Thanks for helping me see that. |
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Apr 5, 2021 16:16:24 GMT -5
Even when artists don't have any dark secret or when they didn't commit any truly reprehensible act, I have a hard time appreciating their work when I learn that they treated people like dirt for no good reason. Several of my favourite artists were reported as acting like entitled prima donnas, which definitely damaged my ability to fully enjoy their work. On the other hand, I always enjoy hearing about how Such and such is a lovely human being on top of being a fantastic creator! Definitely true that firsthand impressions have more impact. I was a die-hard Trekker for most of my life. In 2005, I began going to conventions specifically to meet the actors whose roles had meant so much to me. I had four genuinely NICE experiences, and then, in 2010, I met Brent Spiner (Data, Star Trek the Next Generation). I had my toddler with me, who had recently begun watching hand-picked episodes with me, though she understood little of it. I'd spent the day building up the idea that we were going to actually meet Data, and she was thrilled. When she met Spiner, she immediately asked where spot (Data's cat) was. He looked uncomfortable and annoyed, and then explained to her brusquely that none of that was real; that was someone else's cat. She was so...confused by his annoyance, and I was furious. I've heard many reports from other fans about how nice Spiner was when they met him. Could be he's just uncomfortable around kids, or that it was a particularly bad day, but it really ruined Trek for me, as well as the desire to ever meet another celebrity. The illusion was shattered, and that bad memory is now always there whenever I turn Trek on. I still watch sometimes, but much of the enjoyment is gone, and that was by no means a purposeful decision. Wow, reality checking a toddler is incredibly boorish. If you aren't willing to entertain a child's fantasy for just a moment, you should rethink making public appearances. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 5, 2021 17:15:25 GMT -5
I found the Data character itself increasingly annoying the more I watched the show and the movies so this anecdote doesn't burst any bubbles for me.
But speaking more generally, I've kind of schooled myself to always keep in mind that no matter how much I love someone's work, the creator him or herself could well be someone I wouldn't like on a personal level. In this sense, I don't really have "heroes" in the way this kind of figure is often thought of. I'm always sort of subconsciously prepared to find out the worst.
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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 5, 2021 18:40:09 GMT -5
I've never had a problem separating the artist from his or her art, particularly in the case of art that continues to speak to us long after the creators are dead. As others have noted, a whole lot of writers, artists, musicians, actors, etc, etc were awful human beings but it doesn't negate the value of their work. And perhaps it's my exposure to so much skeevy Golden Age material of late that makes it easier to consider that and other artistic endeavors in the context of the times in which they were created, so I can still enjoy Gone with the Wind oe even Birth of a Nation as great works of cinema while loathing their racism. I am admittedly more liable to avoid the work of contemporary figures like Bill Cosby or Gerard Jones because I don't want to put money in their pockets or disrespect their victims, but I'm willing to cut folks like Woody Allen some slack because the damage to their reputations has been unfounded or misrepresented.
On an adjacent note, I tend to boycott the work of those celebs like Tim Allen who have been ardent, vocal and unapologetic supporters of our previous president and his followers. I don't begrudge them their right to hold their opinions, but I'm not going to reward them for them either.
Cei-U!
I dunno, did I answer the question?
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Post by chadwilliam on Apr 5, 2021 18:44:24 GMT -5
It's strange - I was going to come on and say that this is something I can't do. I can't even think about Roman Polanski and not fall through a rabbit hole of hatred for the man and his supporters. And yet, Shaxper mentioned OJ Simpson and... yeah, I think I could watch The Naked Gun films again and enjoy them just fine. I wonder why that is. My best guess is because OJ is not a controversial figure - that is, he, unlike Polanski, doesn't have Terry Gilliam, Johnny Depp, Debra Winger, Harrison Ford, Jon Landis, Woody Allen, etc, etc defending him and calling those who just want to see him do jail time "philistines". OJ's murder of two people is not defended as a nuanced issue - I see OJ on the screen and I have no doubt that I see what everyone else sees - a monster; a killer. Society is in acceptance on this issue. Intellectually, he hasn't gotten away with anything. Polanski, however... people love this guy! "Well it's rape, but it's not 'Rape' rape"; "philistine collusion"; "isn't a predator" - all words spoken in defense of a scumbag who drugged and forcibly sodomized a 13 year old girl as she pleaded with him to stop. So yeah, put The Naked Gun on and I can watch it knowing that no one's thinking "Gee, maybe we misjudged this OJ guy after all", but if I were forced to watch a Polanski film I'd be thinking "I guess this is why Harrison Ford or whoever thinks Polanski should be able to rape any child he wants to" the whole time. Even if I thought that Polanski had talent, in light of his actions I'd likely just think "Well if a pedophile can do this, it can't be that important or momentous an achievement". I can separate the art from the person, but all of a sudden, the art doesn't seem all that important.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 5, 2021 18:52:14 GMT -5
I have no issues separating the artist and their art in general. I also don't have an issue with separating the artist and my money. For example, there's no way on Earth that Orson Scott Card would ever get a dime from me. I'm fine with reading his work for free but I'd never put money in his pocket. See also Mel Gibson.
I will say that a persons politics tend to color the way I see them and their art. It absolutely happened with Charlie Daniels. Luckily I find that I rarely like the art made by people with whom I don't agree politically.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 5, 2021 19:27:21 GMT -5
Wow, reality checking a toddler is incredibly boorish. If you aren't willing to entertain a child's fantasy for just a moment, you should rethink making public appearances. I try to be fair and consider the number of public appearances he makes and the number of fans he interacts with at each appearance. Seems like a mathematical certainty you're going to make the wrong impression on someone with all those exchanges. I don't logically fault him for this, but the parent in me will never stop being pissed at how callously he stripped away my daughter's fantasy and belief that someone she loved would necessarily be kind to her in return. She's thirteen now. She knows the story, but I doubt she even thinks about it. And I'm still mad anyway. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Apr 5, 2021 19:39:04 GMT -5
Woodrow Wilson remains one of my favorite presidents in U.S. History You would probably not be happy about recent events here in Portland. The former Woodrow Wilson High School is now Ida B Wells-Barnett High School, as of January 2021, and the former James Madison High School is Leodis V. McDaniel High School as of February 2021. Some news coverage: |
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