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Post by Jeddak on Feb 5, 2021 21:31:01 GMT -5
I remember a fair bit of excitement, or at least anticipation, when Atlas started. The comics shop where I bought them was limiting us to 3 copies of each first issue, worried about speculators. I really liked Phoenix (for 2 issues out of 4), Demon Hunter (who only got 1 issue), Mike Ploog's Luke Malone back-up in Police Action (for 1 issue out of the 3), Chaykin's Scorpion (for 1 issue out of 3), and Archie Goodwin's Sgt. Stryker's Death Squad (which was actually good for all 3 issues of Savage Combat Tales). And Tiger-Man, Cougar and Destructor at least had potential. But yeah, things fell apart pretty quickly, and none of the changes were for the better. Phoenix #4 (Protector my ass!) remains one of my all-time least favorite comics of all time.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 6, 2021 9:20:33 GMT -5
Phoenix #4 (Protector my ass!) remains one of my all-time least favorite comics of all time. Well that just makes me want to read it more!
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Post by MDG on Feb 6, 2021 10:09:08 GMT -5
What's sad to see is how many other would-be "big" publishers tried to follow Goodman's example, and right from the starting gate try to FLOOD the stands with a slew of new titles all at once.
The counterpoint to this is that, if you start with only one or two titles, you risk not being noticed. Atlas/Seaboard had audacity; its many titles was a promise to readers that it was going to be huge and wasn't going anywhere. And, from what I'm hearing in this thread, combined with what I've already read, all of it was decent or better, which is pretty impressive for an upstart launching so many titles at once. Sure, there are massive drawbacks to going big like this right out of the stables, but I can also understand Goodman's thinking. Had he only launched one or two titles up front, we might not even be discussing Atlas/Seaboard in 2021. It can also be the scale or minimums needed by printers and distributors, payroll for the office, etc. They we're launching a business, not printing a fanzine.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 6, 2021 10:12:12 GMT -5
The counterpoint to this is that, if you start with only one or two titles, you risk not being noticed. Atlas/Seaboard had audacity; its many titles was a promise to readers that it was going to be huge and wasn't going anywhere. And, from what I'm hearing in this thread, combined with what I've already read, all of it was decent or better, which is pretty impressive for an upstart launching so many titles at once. Sure, there are massive drawbacks to going big like this right out of the stables, but I can also understand Goodman's thinking. Had he only launched one or two titles up front, we might not even be discussing Atlas/Seaboard in 2021. It can also be the scale or minimums needed by printers and distributors, payroll for the office, etc. They we're launching a business, not printing a fanzine. Excellent points. There were almost certainly discounts, or at least more clout in negotiating pricing, when Atlas was bringing in 21 monthly titles as opposed to two. It also likely helped ensure real estate on the spinner racks.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 12:56:15 GMT -5
Phoenix #4 (Protector my ass!) remains one of my all-time least favorite comics of all time. Well that just makes me want to read it more! First, the abrupt shift from the biblical allegory.... Then, the 1940s bikini babe alien nurses..... The Kirby rejects who were blackballed by the Guardians of the Universe (and the Galactic Patrol)... The hilarious briefing with Q... and the battle with the cyclops monster, minus the Dynamation..... Then, Larry Lieber lets us know what other awesomeness is coming from Atlas...... All the fun you could want, for two bits. Plus, as a special bonus, there are ads for Isokinetics (for musclebuilding), a book about Very Special People (as seen in freak shows at your seedier circuses), Flash Gordon and Mighty Mouse on Super 8 film, Jeff Jones monster jigsaw puzzles... comic book binders from Jim Steranko's Supergraphics... (adds color and class to your bookshelf!) ...assorted high end novelty products (not cheap crap), sci-fi & fantasy movie soundtrack records, Star Trek model kits... ...and Planet of the Apes home movies (this is Cornelius in front of the house...this is Cornelius at the back of the house.....and this is Cornelius in the shed, hiding from the Spanish Inquisition) Stratomatic Baseball games, Aicondo Martial Arts Federation home study book, with black belt certificate, suitable for framing (learn karate from book?) How did these guys flood the market with so many titles? Well two pages of ads for about every 2-3 pages of story helps.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 12:59:38 GMT -5
Still not convinced? Check out the snappy dialogue...
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 6, 2021 13:01:11 GMT -5
I clearly need to own this book.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 13:07:26 GMT -5
A few points about the last few posts. The Atlas titles were bimonthly instead of monthly. So only 11-12 titles were out each month. Second as far as all the ads? At that time DC & Marvel also had only 17-18 pages of story in each issue.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 13:29:16 GMT -5
The previous 3 issues were written by Jeff Rovin, with art by Sal Amendola. An American astronaut, who has been on a prolonged mission aboard the space station Threshold I, is forced to eject in a rescue capsule, with his teammates, but is the only survivor of splashdown. He is found by aliens, who are studying the planet from a hidden base in the Arctic. Their race was responsible for jumpstarting humanity; but, the experiment has failed, as humanity has failed to become enlightened. So, they are going to destroy the place and start over. Astronaut Ed Tyler isn't going to let that happen and he steals a suit and weapons and escapes the base, battling the aliens. he then tries to stop their schemes. There is also a subplot of his wife and NASA. Along the way, Rovin invokes both evolution and biblical allegory. Ed Tyler's mission, as the Phoenix, is to bring salvation for mankind. Sounds familiar... He even gets stuck on a pseudo-cross, in the third issue... That issue ends with him rescuing a community of people from a nastier group of the aliens and Ed moving on. Not the suicidal stuff we see at the start of issue #4. Rovin's three issues are filled with stilted dialogue, a lot of exposition and overwrought emotions; but, there is a decent idea here and Amendola makes it look different. It swipes from other sci-fi, like 2001, Planet of the Apes, and similar sci-fi of the 1970s; but, nothing quite as blatant as the Lensman/Green Lantern rip-off of The Protectors. It had potential, but suffered in execution. Then, Rovin quit and Gary Friedrich was tapped to revamp it into a more conventional superhero comic. The same thing happened when Chaykin quit, after two issues of 1930s pulp adventures, in The Scorpion. In issue 3, the character is replaced by a modern superhero, who is pretty much a Spider-Man swipe, though there is an illusion that he might be the original (possibly) immortal hero. Destructor was about the only one not changed, as it was a superhero from the start and no one was going to tell Ditko how to do a Ditko comic. John Targitt started out as a detective (in Targitt) and then became a costumed vigilante, in issue #3 (Man-Stalker).
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 13:34:38 GMT -5
A few points about the last few posts. The Atlas titles were bimonthly instead of monthly. So only 11-12 titles were out each month. Second as far as all the ads? At that time DC & Marvel also had only 17-18 pages of story in each issue. That's my point, though....they were able to publish so many comics because of the amount of ad space, as this was how comics were financed, in the newsstand days. The higher your circulation, the higher your ad rates. Comics were considered low end, so the ads were for low end merchants; but, with enough of them, you could publish a title. Goodman had years of experience with this model, so he knew where to get advertising clients. The real problem, aside from quality of the product, was the distribution end. Newsstands were badly affected by the post-Vietnam recession and were disappearing. Many outlets cut down on newsstand space and only proven titles were sold. It was hard to get a new product widely distributed, especially a new comic book.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 14:44:43 GMT -5
I never had a problem finding the Atlas titles. Where I lived near Philadelphia the only publisher's books I had a hard time finding was Gold Key. I could even find Charlton titles regularly. And even Capt Canuck!
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Post by tartanphantom on Feb 6, 2021 14:58:30 GMT -5
Atlas' biggest problem was that Goodman was more focused on spiting Marvel than producing consistent quality work. Hence, the huge change in direction in most books after 2 issues. The editorship was basically rudderless.
I'm five issues shy of having everything Atlas/Seaboard produced. As far as comics go, I just need Vicki #2 and #4. With the magazines, I still need Devilina #1, Weird Tales of the Macabre #2, and of course the giant unicorn in the room, Gothic Romances #1-- which is technically not a comic book but an illustrated romance story magazine. Even so, it contains illustrations by Neil Adams, Howard Chaykin and Russ Heath.
I like the titles more for the artwork than the disjointed storytelling. I view them more as an archival asterisk of the 70's than anything else.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 16:00:59 GMT -5
I never had a problem finding the Atlas titles. Where I lived near Philadelphia the only publisher's books I had a hard time finding was Gold Key. I could even find Charlton titles regularly. And even Capt Canuck! Well, that's still within the New York sphere of distribution. In other regions, it was a different story. Here in the Midwest, the only issue I ever saw was that Phoenix #4. My first comic shops in this area only had a couple of titles (Phoenix and Scorpion) in their back issues, that I recall. By contrast, Western (Gold Key/Whitman) was plentiful, as they self-distributed and were based here in the Midwest (in Wisconsin). Charlton wasn't hard to come by, depending on the time frame (easier in the early 70s, scarcer in the mid-late 70s). When I was stationed in Charleston, SC, the two main shops there both had selections of the titles, which is how I assembled most of them. I don't know if that meant they were better distributed in that area or they just picked them up at shows or from a collector; but, with both shops having some, I suspect they were more widely available in that market than mine. Quality is, obviously, the biggest factor, as they weren't selling well enough to to keep them going where they were distributed, coupled with the talent exit after the first couple of issues, after Goodman reneged on many of his promises. In Comic Book Artist, Rovin talks about Goodman not having a vision of aping Marvel, at first, but became increasingly focused on making it "just like Marvel," right down tot he look of the covers.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 18:07:32 GMT -5
I've been glancing through Comic Book Artist #16, and found some interesting tidbits and ideas. Jeff Rovin speaks of answering an ad in the New York Times, for a comic book editor. That night, he got a call from martin Goodman and he had the job. Roy Thomas has an interview where he talks about dinner with Chip Goodman and possibly being offered the job of running things (his memory was hazy, but thinks it might have been around the time Rovin left), but he turned it down. Larry Lieber was not interviewed, as my memory was faulty. Rovin spoke that Goodman originally wanted to do 5 color comic titles and 2 B&W magazines; but, that subsequently changed to the 11 or so they put out, per month. It was initially suggested that Rovin do the color books and Larry the B&W; but, Rovin thought that was backwards and he did the B&W mags, initially, while Larry was editing a bloc of the color books. So, Larry was doing color books from day 1. Chip Goodman isn't much of a figure in this, other than in their efforts to buy Swank men's magazine, which they did and kept going after Atlas died. Chip wasn't heavily involved, but Martin became increasingly so, especially about covers. Roy theorized it was because Rovin was young and he didn't have the same relationship he had with Stan, where he trusted his judgement and track record. Even so, Martin was involved in Marvel's covers, often demanding changes. Rovin describes arbitrary changes that worked against the layouts. For instance, Phoenix #1 had a a sparser cover... The buildings were an afterthought, because disaster films were en vogue and Goodman wanted buildings falling down in the image. Rovin also describes a very adversarial relationship with the Comics Code, as they tried to push the boundaries and the Code pushed back. Rovin played games with them and still snuck in content, because the Code was distracted by more egregious things. A Code rep actually went to Martin Goodman and demanded Rovin's dismissal. Production Manager Steve Mitchell puts forward an interesting idea about why the Goodman's seem to ignore sensible ideas and made changes even before they had sales figures (they had mandated changes even before receiving figures for the initial debut comics): it was a tax write-off for the Goodmans. It's an interesting idea. Common consensus is that it was begun as revenge for Chip being forced out, after the sale of Marvel, and the people who worked there believe that might have been an initial impulse. However, Chip was more interested in the purchase of Swank and more involved with it. He is described as trying to please a father who treated him like garbage. Martin had experience in starting companies, then quickly folding them to avoid his debts. He had a big cash infusion from the sale of Marvel and Magazine Management, which would also mean a big tax bill. They paid higher rates to pull name talent away from DC and Marvel, and there was talk of royalties, bonuses and partial ownership, though no one seemed to have any of those deals in writing (the article does have a copy of a blank contract for partial ownership and Alan Weiss mentions selling an idea for such a line). They secure distribution through Kable News Company, which was a lower tier company, despite having contacts with better distributors. Then, they are making immediate changes, before seeing any sales figures. They do everything they can to make it like Marvel. Mitchell refers to the Producers, where they deliberately set out to create a money loser, for tax purposes and draw big investment. There is a certain logic that fits, that Goodman expected it to fail to give him a big write-off, to offset his tax bill. It seems a bit much, but, it might explain some later decisions. Rovin had also worked at Skywald and at DC, for Dorothy Woolfolk, the editor of the romance comics, who was known for mentoring young talent. He was also an assistant to Joe Orlando and Joe Kubert. The first release was Movie Monsters (B&W movie-related anthology) & Weird Tales of the Macabre (also B&W), in October 1974. The big release featured the titles were Destructor (Archie Goodwin/Steve Ditko/Wally Wood) Devilina (B&W magazine anthology), Gothic Romances (B&W mag, though more of a text magazine with illustrations), Grim Ghost (Michael Fleisher/Ernie Colon), Ironjaw (Michael Fleisher/Mike Sekowsky), Phoenix (Jeff Rovin/Sal Amendola), The Scorpion (Howard Chaykin), Thrilling Adventure Stories (B&W magazine), Vicki (reprints of Tower's Tippy Teen), and Wulf the Barbarian (Larry Hama/Klaus Janson). They launched in November 1974, with February 1975 cover dates. December brought the other initial titles: The Brute (Fleisher & Sekowsky), Morlock 2001 (Fleisher/Al Milgrom), Planet of Vampires (Larry Hama/Pat Broderick), Police Action ("Sam Lomax:" Russ Jones/Mike Sekowski & "Requiem for a Champ:" Mike Ploog & Frank Springer), Savage Combat Tales (Archie Goodwin/Al McWilliams/Jack Sparling ) Tales of Evil (Russ Jones/Jerry Grandinetti/Mike Sekowski), Targitt (John D'Agostino/Ric Meyers/Howard Nostrand), Weird Suspense (Fleisher/Pat Boyette), and Western Action (Larry Lieber/Doug Wildey & Steves Skeates/Jack Abel). These are the titles worth checking out. By January, Rovin had quit. (he said the breaking point was a moment of frustration where he embedded a T-square into a wall). The Goodmans are immediately wanting changes; but, they have no sales figures yet. Goodman doesn't like Chaykin's work on Scorpion and wants it changed. Alex Toth is contacted and starts reworking things. Chaykin sees Toth's work for the third issue in the office, after delivering his second. He quits and goes to Marvel and pitches Dominic Fortune. Most of the tiles are revamped with the 3rd issue (if they got one) or replaced by new titles. Steve Mitchell describes his frustrations with constant changes and pretty much says it is either him or Chip Goodman. Chip Goodman actually tries to keep Mitchell, but he leaves. Alan Kupperberg and David Anthony Kraft are late assistants. DAK was there at the end and remarks of an April staff party, then "suspension" of individual books. He spoke of an enthusiastic Chip, who was very supportive, until martin returned from an extended vacation and Chip became erratic. No one really seemed to have any direct knowledge of sales figures, though anecdotally say initial sales were good, but latter sales were as low as 13%, with 20-25% needed to break even. Rovin also mentioned that he initial pushed for licensing titles, like Omega Man, Kolchak and similar pop culture fare; but, Goodman thought it was too expensive and so they pushed imitations of some of those. He wanted to do The Avenger, the pulp hero that DC would publish under Justice, Inc (the title of the first Avenger story). They suggested the title of The Scorpion, to Chaykin, but he came up with the pulp hero and 1930s setting. They also looked at licensing the Tower Comics line, with Vicki being the only result (Rovin says they abandoned the idea, rather than were rejected). So, we might have had an earlier THUNDER Agents revival, had things gone differently.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 6, 2021 18:10:00 GMT -5
ps One thing I had sort of forgotten was that Mike Grell talked to Atlas about doing his unsold Savage Empire newspaper strip as a comic book. Grell was cornered at DC by carmine Infantino about it and asked why he didn't bring it to DC and they sat down to look at it and Warlord was the result.
Chaykin mentioned that Atlas accomplished one thing and that was to force DC and Marvel to increase their page rates.
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