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Post by profh0011 on Feb 4, 2021 14:25:18 GMT -5
Apart from the abrupt change-of-direction far too soon to make any sense... I see 2 main problems. One, a new company trying to FLOOD the market all at once with product (rather than starting with one or two and establishing the name of the company itself), and two, most of the new characters feeling like "knock-offs" of existing Marvel books. And let's face it. For most of his entire career as a publisher, Martin Goodman's whole stock-in-trade was flooding the market with knock-offs. How about those 2 short-lived series in the 50s-- " THE BLACK KNIGHT" (which reminds me a lot of the then-current feature film " IVANHOE") and " THE YELLOW CLAW" (a blatent SWIPE of the then-current " ADVENTURES OF FU MANCHU" TV series). By offering higher page-rates, Goodman managed to lure some decent talent away from Marvel and off of books that might have been a lot steadier and more stable otherwise. Then, when the new outfit went belly-up, you had a lot of free-lancers scrambling for work (I doubt any of them returned to titles they left). I might as well ask... did the fairly-recent revival of THE GRIM GHOST ever go anywhere?
Even Marvel's own B&W horror explosion suffered from the same "flood the market" mentality. Initially, 2 books were planned: SAVAGE TALES and TOMB OF DRACULA. When SAVAGE TALES #1 ran into distribution problems, the other book was delayed, then re-formatted to a color book. Eventually, they tried again, brought back SAVAGE TALES, introduced DRACULA LIVES, and announced they'd be doing 2 B&W horror books. But then it was 4-- and then 5. ALL AT ONCE. And all of that was in additon to a MOUNTAIN of color horror comics-- new and reprints. And the early issues of all of those B&Ws were padded out with both terribly-written articles, and inappropriate reprints from the 1950s whose styles clashed hopelessly with the new material.
Even at the time, it was easy for me to see why it failed. There's only so much customer money to go around.
If they'd stuck with 1-- or 2 B&W horror mags at the most-- they might have lasted a lot of years. DRACULA LIVES only made it to 12 issues.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2021 19:36:53 GMT -5
...
Atlas Comics are a glimpse into the comic book world pre direct market and lacked a superstar hero like Superman or Spider-Man to capture the readers loyalty. That was what drove comics back then not the talent which Atlas had. They used some really good creators to work on the titles....
But even since the direct market, how many new superheroes not launched by Marvel or DC have really caught on to become household names like Superman and Spider-Man? Spawn, Savage Dragon... what else?
Other characters that have developed followings are a bit outside the superhero realm, like Hellboy.
I would argue the newer heroes are "famous" more for their creators than the actual heroes themselves.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 4, 2021 19:48:50 GMT -5
But even since the direct market, how many new superheroes not launched by Marvel or DC have really caught on to become household names like Superman and Spider-Man? Spawn, Savage Dragon... what else?
Other characters that have developed followings are a bit outside the superhero realm, like Hellboy.
I would argue the newer heroes are "famous" more for their creators than the actual heroes themselves. I’m trying to parse what you’re saying here and I’m failing miserably.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2021 19:58:14 GMT -5
I would argue the newer heroes are "famous" more for their creators than the actual heroes themselves. I’m trying to parse what you’re saying here and I’m failing miserably. OK I failed at making my "point". During news stand days I feel readers followed their favorite characters. After the direct market I feel readers started to follow creators more than the characters. So we went from superstar characters to superstar creators. I would argue Spawn is only known because McFarlane created him.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 4, 2021 20:33:37 GMT -5
I’m trying to parse what you’re saying here and I’m failing miserably. OK I failed at making my "point". During news stand days I feel readers followed their favorite characters. After the direct market I feel readers started to follow creators more than the characters. So we went from superstar characters to superstar creators. I would argue Spawn is only known because McFarlane created him. Maybe a bit. I think Spawn got a chance because of McFarlane. But to the extent the character is known today it’s because of the movie & cartoon. Having spent a little over twenty years on comic boards and sites I’d say that there are still plenty of fans who follow characters and plenty who are still stuck on one company over another.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2021 21:43:56 GMT -5
OK I failed at making my "point". During news stand days I feel readers followed their favorite characters. After the direct market I feel readers started to follow creators more than the characters. So we went from superstar characters to superstar creators. I would argue Spawn is only known because McFarlane created him. Maybe a bit. I think Spawn got a chance because of McFarlane. But to the extent the character is known today it’s because of the movie & cartoon. Having spent a little over twenty years on comic boards and sites I’d say that there are still plenty of fans who follow characters and plenty who are still stuck on one company over another. I agree. But I do think there are readers who follow creators over characters today.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 4, 2021 22:20:10 GMT -5
Maybe a bit. I think Spawn got a chance because of McFarlane. But to the extent the character is known today it’s because of the movie & cartoon. Having spent a little over twenty years on comic boards and sites I’d say that there are still plenty of fans who follow characters and plenty who are still stuck on one company over another. I agree. But I do think there are readers who follow creators over characters today. Oh, there absolutely are. I’m one of them. I buy everything Brubaker & Phillips do. And most anything written by Mark Russell.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 4, 2021 22:59:36 GMT -5
The Comic Book Artist issue on Atlas/Seaboard, as mentioned by profh0011, has just about anything you could want to know. Jon B Cooke put together some nice issues focusing on some of those lesser known lines and the Atlas/Seaboard one has an extensive interview with Jeff Rovin and Larry Lieber, as well as some of the guys who produced comics there (Chaykin, Rich Buckler and a few others). Issue #16.
That magazine also has an excellent look at Western/Gold Key/Whitman, Tower, Harvey, 2 issues on Charlton, a couple on the 80s indies and DC and Marvel. I kind of preferred it to the TWO Morrows Back Issue magazine. I used those issues as reference for my profiles in the Other Guys thread.
Scorpion was always my favorite, but only the Chaykin issues. Phoenix was different, which earned it a few points, but Rovin's story never really wowed me. I liked Grim Ghost, as it was fairly entertaining, thanks to Michael Fleisher and Ernie Colon. Western Action, with the character Kid Cody, featured some nice art from Doug Wildey, who hadn't done much comic work in some time (busy with animation, like Jonny Quest). Savage Combat Tales included a nice Alex Toth story, involving the Flying Tigers, in China. Planet of Vampires and Moorlock 2001 had potential. Wally Wood inked Ditko on the first two issues of Destructor, which makes them stand out. Demon Hunter is interesting as a beta test for Devil Slayer.
One of the points brought up in how badly this company was managed was the two editors. Rovin worked for Warren, putting out their line of black & white magazines. the Goodman's hired him to do the color comic line. Larry Lieber had worked for brother Stan at Marvel, in the Atlas & Marvel days, but more on the creative side, rather than editorial. he was hired to edit the b & w magazines. If that doesn't seem backwards, I don't know what is. Both of them thought it was strange but tried to make the best of it.
Rovin later wrote and edited several encyclopedias of pop culture, including: The Encyclopedia of Super-Heroes, The Encyclopedia of Supervillains, Adventure Heroes, The Encyclopedia of Monster, The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Cartoon Animals, and Aliens, Robots & Spaceships. The Encyclopedias of Super-Heroes and Supervillains both contain numerous entries on Atlas/Seaboard characters (including a far more flattering entry on The Phoenix than most reviewers would give it), as did the Adventure Heroes reference. Those are pretty good references to the characters (as well as other characters from comics, pulps, movies and literature). My only caution is that entries reflect Rovin's opinion, which displays some biases. For instance, he praises his own work rather highly, yet condemned the initial Noble Comics version of Justice Machine as amateurish. While the artwork was rough in several spots (due to multiple inkers as much as anything), the plot and the concept were quite good and it spawned the later series at Comico, with some excellent Tony Isabella writing and better art from Gustovich.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2021 9:50:58 GMT -5
Tiger Man by Conway & Ditko was a wonky title. I still have those 3 issues.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Feb 5, 2021 12:36:06 GMT -5
Scorpion was always my favorite, but only the Chaykin issues. Phoenix was different, which earned it a few points, but Rovin's story never really wowed me. I liked Grim Ghost, as it was fairly entertaining, thanks to Michael Fleisher and Ernie Colon. Western Action, with the character Kid Cody, featured some nice art from Doug Wildey, who hadn't done much comic work in some time (busy with animation, like Jonny Quest). Savage Combat Tales included a nice Alex Toth story, involving the Flying Tigers, in China. Planet of Vampires and Moorlock 2001 had potential. Wally Wood inked Ditko on the first two issues of Destructor, which makes them stand out. Demon Hunter is interesting as a beta test for Devil Slayer.
At one point I had 80-90% of their color comics; I never ran across their b&w magazines (probably didn't try hard enough). I think I got rid of them all aside from the Chaykin issues.
I'd love to edit an anthology of the Best of Atlas/Seaboard, and think it'd be competitive with equivalent collections of Marvel and DC at the time period. But not only was the rest of the line dross, but even their best was equivalent to the average Marvel and DC comic. You can't break into a crowded market with that; you have to be better.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2021 14:03:53 GMT -5
I would buy a collection of Atlas Comics. B&W or color.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 5, 2021 16:06:58 GMT -5
You can't break into a crowded market with that; you have to be better. EXACTLY.
Per my earlier point: when Warren decided to revive HORROR COMICS in America-- and do it outside the Comics Code, in a B&W magazine formet-- they first gave it a try in the short-lived "MONSTER WORLD" (the spin-off of "FAMOUS MONSTERS"). When they got positive feedback, they came up with "CREEPY".
As I've read many times, the early issues were like a "who's who" of the best of the old EC Comics from the 50s. Al Williamson, Angelo Torres, Frank Frazetta, Joe Orlando, Reed Crandall, Jack Davis, Gray Morrow, and before long, Alden McWilliams, Alex Toth, John Severin, George Evans... my God, it's criminal that to this day I have still never read most of those early issues!!
From what I read, their biggest problem with the first issue was convincing some THICK-headed distributors and retailers that "CREEPY" was EXCEMPT from the Comics Code, because it was NOT a color comic-book to be displayed with the "kiddie" comics... but a "magazine" to be filed with "SPORT ILLUSTRATED", "TIME" and "PLAYBOY".
And it was nearly 2 YEARS before the spin-off, "EERIE", debuted.
What's sad to see is how many other would-be "big" publishers tried to follow Goodman's example, and right from the starting gate try to FLOOD the stands with a slew of new titles all at once.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,707
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Post by shaxper on Feb 5, 2021 18:28:07 GMT -5
What's sad to see is how many other would-be "big" publishers tried to follow Goodman's example, and right from the starting gate try to FLOOD the stands with a slew of new titles all at once.
The counterpoint to this is that, if you start with only one or two titles, you risk not being noticed. Atlas/Seaboard had audacity; its many titles was a promise to readers that it was going to be huge and wasn't going anywhere. And, from what I'm hearing in this thread, combined with what I've already read, all of it was decent or better, which is pretty impressive for an upstart launching so many titles at once. Sure, there are massive drawbacks to going big like this right out of the stables, but I can also understand Goodman's thinking. Had he only launched one or two titles up front, we might not even be discussing Atlas/Seaboard in 2021.
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Post by brutalis on Feb 5, 2021 18:38:24 GMT -5
I would buy a collection of Atlas Comics. B&W or color. Oooohh a complete collection in black and white has me drooling. Chaykin, Colon, Ditko, Broderick, Buckler and the others so we could see the great artwork crisp, clean and clearly. I would certainly spend on that!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2021 19:11:43 GMT -5
I would buy a collection of Atlas Comics. B&W or color. Oooohh a complete collection in black and white has me drooling. Chaykin, Colon, Ditko, Broderick, Buckler and the others so we could see the great artwork crisp, clean and clearly. I would certainly spend on that! I think 2 - 3 compendiums about the size of DC Showcase Presents/Marvel Essentials would collect all the issues.
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