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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 9:37:25 GMT -5
The problem with a topic title like mine is that one has no proof. I can't prove Marvel (in particular Stan Lee) was inspired by Captain Marvel. If it was a court case, I'd have zero proof. I can't know the mind of Stan Lee and others. And even if (and it's a big if) they were inspired by Captain Marvel, it could well have been a subconscious thing.
I've been reading "The Fawcett Companion" (TwoMorrows). One article, first published in 1942, mentioned how Captain Marvel had a sense of humour - and made mistakes. It also mentions his alter ego, who, as well know, is teenager Billy Batson.
The more I learn about Captain Marvel's Fawcett tenure, the more I feel he must have been unique at the time. Maybe. I'm not a Fawcett historian. However, the person who wrote that 1942 article clearly seems to believe he stood out as unique among other heroes who were very serious - and, of course, were adults.
No-one can truly say where inspiration come from. We can make educated guesses. We can guess various Western heroes might have inspired Batman. Stan Lee once wrote about Frankenstein's Monster and how he pertained to the Hulk. I think we can see certain influences in Star Wars. As a wrestling fan, I can certainly see influence at times, e.g. those who tried to be the "next Hulk Hogan". So educated guesses are valid - or semi-valid, I guess.
I can't prove any aspect of Captain Marvel inspired Stan Lee when Mr Lee created Spidey, consciously or subconsciously. My reading of Golden Age tales has been few and far between, a few reprints aside. However, given Marvel's self-deprecating mindset and humour, and his teenage alter-ego, it does make a pedantic soul like me wonder if there was any inspiration, even an "ounce" of it, from Captain Marvel towards Spider-Man.
Thoughts?
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Post by Farrar on Jun 17, 2020 11:24:25 GMT -5
First of all, welcome back  Interesting hypothesis you have there. Personally I think he was combining elements of what he'd written before, which included a healthy dose of humor (which helped make the Marvel new superhero characters sound less like cookie-cutter superheroes). Humor was always a big part of Lee's dialoguing/writing style. In the '40s and '50s Lee did a lot of scripting for various genres including funny animal titles, "working gal" titles (Tessie the Typist, Millie the Model, etc. ); teen humor titles;and the like. Even when Goodman's company did Atlas horror/mystery titles (1950s), Lee would add some humor in there too; and many those stories were predicated on a psychological twist or character flaw (greed, dissatisfaction, alienation, etc.)...so, not unlike Spidey or other heroes' angsts. It all came together for him when he was tasked with getting Marvel back into superheroes in 1961; by then he was seasoned enough, and had enough autonomy, to write the way he liked to (cue overused story about his wife advising him). IMO it would have been second nature for Lee to inject these more "realistic" components into the new superhero work. If you're interested, and since you mentioned TwoMorrows, there's a really good overview of his pre-Marvel (FF 1961) writing in Alter Ego #90. |
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Post by rberman on Jun 17, 2020 11:27:41 GMT -5
Certainly Spider-Man drew on many previous sources, and Captain Marvel was quite popular at one point. It's a separate question how much of Spider-Man came from Stan Lee (vs Kirby or Ditko) in the first place. Maybe one way to approach the topic is: How many teen superheroes prior to Spider-man were not sidekicks?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 11:36:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome back, Farrar.
I shall check out that Alter Ego issue.
It is a hypothesis built on a less-than-solid foundation. Only Stan Lee would know for sure - and it is possible to be influenced subconsciously. Or to forget things.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jun 17, 2020 12:06:01 GMT -5
I don't really see the Captain Marvel influence. I agree with Farrar - Lee had already been writing soap operatic plots about teenagers and this was an extension of that work.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 17, 2020 12:23:22 GMT -5
Good to see you again,@taxidriver1980, and a good topic, as usual. I'm no expert, but to me, what you and the others have said all make sense. One might argue that there's even a bit of Freddie Freeman in Peter Parker. Like Freddie, who is limited by the condition that causes his lameness and forces him to use crutches, Peter is a "four-eyes" who's lost without his very prominent glasses. In Peter's case, he's also a brain -- and in particular a science nerd -- and that further marginalizes him in the early stories. Becoming Spider-man allows him to live an entirely different kind of life. There were also arachnid-type heroes who might have been "helpful" to Lee and/or Ditko. The old Spider pulps, though very much reliant on the Shadow for their mythos, also included a web motif on many covers, which was in those early days, also a prominent aspect of the logo. According to Comic Vine's write-up, "he also carried a super thin ropeline that was capable of supporting several hundred pounds that he called his 'web'.' Then there was DC's Tarantula, "who used a web-gun that fires a stream of liquid that solidifies to a web-like substance and he outfits his gloves and soles with suction cups that allow him to walk on walls and ceilings." More here: www.herogoggles.com/DC-goldenAgeHeroes.html |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2020 12:54:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome back, Prince Hal.
And, yes, good point about Freeman, I hadn't thought of it like that.
I know everything has to have an inspiration somewhere. None of us will ever prove what a person's mindset it, but it's fun to think about. To be honest, it was the "Fawcett Companion" that really got me thinking hard about this.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 17, 2020 13:11:43 GMT -5
Have to believe that Stan would have grown up reading Captain Marvel and other comics of his time. Subconsciously or through simple osmosis influencing his ideas based on what he had read it isn't unbelievable that he might "choose" certain aspects pieced together in crafting his stories. Stan might not outright "Steal" an idea, but he was more than capable of taking a thought and running with it for making it into what he wanted. Stan outright totally retold many stories over and over again with subtle changes. There is a western story in the Marvel Westerns where the "hero" who is considered am "outlaw" is hurt or finds a family he takes up with and the boy in the family idolizes him to the point of wanting to run away and leave the family joining up with his idol. The "here" has to act out as a "bad guy" in every way to showing the child the error of their ways so the child hates the "idol" and stays with the family/dad. That same story has been changed even by Stan where instead of a child it is a daughter in the family "falling in love" with the hero and he has to disillusion her to the point of hating him in order to "save" her from her own love/worship of him. Variations upon the same subject in multiple series which to me shows Stan would be influenced from his prior readings of other sources.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 17, 2020 13:22:18 GMT -5
Have to believe that Stan would have grown up reading Captain Marvel and other comics of his time. Subconsciously or through simple osmosis influencing his ideas based on what he had read it isn't unbelievable that he might "choose" certain aspects pieced together in crafting his stories. Stan might not outright "Steal" an idea, but he was more than capable of taking a thought and running with it for making it into what he wanted. Stan outright totally retold many stories over and over again with subtle changes. There is a western story in the Marvel Westerns where the "hero" who is considered am "outlaw" is hurt or finds a family he takes up with and the boy in the family idolizes him to the point of wanting to run away and leave the family joining up with his idol. The "here" has to act out as a "bad guy" in every way to showing the child the error of their ways so the child hates the "idol" and stays with the family/dad. That same story has been changed even by Stan where instead of a child it is a daughter in the family "falling in love" with the hero and he has to disillusion her to the point of hating him in order to "save" her from her own love/worship of him. Variations upon the same subject in multiple series which to me shows Stan would be influenced from his prior readings of other sources. Not so much. Lee started working for Goodman and what has become known as Timely Comics in 1939. So he was working in the business before Captain Marvel appeared. I'm not saying there couldn't be an influence, but more likely it would come from the same influences that lead to the creation of Captain Marvel. |
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Post by rberman on Jun 17, 2020 13:31:38 GMT -5
There is a western story in the Marvel Westerns where the "hero" who is considered am "outlaw" is hurt or finds a family he takes up with and the boy in the family idolizes him to the point of wanting to run away and leave the family joining up with his idol. The "hero" has to act out as a "bad guy" in every way to showing the child the error of their ways so the child hates the "idol" and stays with the family/dad. That same story has been changed even by Stan where instead of a child it is a daughter in the family "falling in love" with the hero and he has to disillusion her to the point of hating him in order to "save" her from her own love/worship of him. Variations upon the same subject in multiple series which to me shows Stan would be influenced from his prior readings of other sources. This was redone in Deadly Fists of Kung Fu with a minor variation. Shang Chi finds a young boy is idolizing him and goading him into a fight. Shang Chi loses the fight on purpose so he can get off of the kid's pedestal. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 17, 2020 14:10:22 GMT -5
There are a few teen-aged heroes that pre-date Spider-Man and each had its own take on the idea. Captain Marvel was pretty much a pre-teen, in Billy Batson, who magically transforms into an adult. It many ways, it is a variation on Aladdin, as Billy uses a magic word to summon a "genie." Captain Marvel Jr remained a teen in his super-powered form, which made you wonder why he reverted back to his human form, an orphan with a permanently damaged leg. However, the Marvels were always positive characters. Their stories were also very whimsical, almost fairy tale adventures. They were humorous, but it wasn't exactly the same kind of humor you see in Spider-Man. Captain Marvel, in concept, has far more influence on Thor, when you get down to the core of the original concept. Dr Don Blake, a man who needs a cane to walk, strikes it into the ground and magic lightning transforms him into the super-powerful Thor, God of Thunder. Orphan Billy Batson utters the name of the wizard, Shazam, and is transformed into the super-powerful Captain Marvel, the World's Mightiest Mortal. There was The Star Spangled Kid, with his driver and sidekick Stripesy, where the kid was the hero and the adult was the sidekick, reversing the usual formula. Sylvester Pemberton is a rich kid, who fights crime in a patriotic costume. That was about as developed as it got, other than being part of the Seven Soldiers of Victory. Probably not much of an influence. Crimebuster was a teenaged kid, who wears part of his hockey uniform to battle criminals, like Iron Jaw, along with his pet monkey. Fairly popular comic, good critical reaction; possibly some influence, though personalities are very different. Probably the closest in influence is Simon & Kirby's The Fly. Tommy Troy finds a ring that brings forth Turan, of the Fly People and learns he can wish himself into adult form to become The Fly, where he fights crime, including a masked criminal, called the Spider. Captain Marvel influenced how Tommy Troy transforms into the Fly, and the Fly had a big influence on the development of Spider-Man. The earliest designs of Spider-Man, under Kirby, heavily reflected both The Fly and a couple of other unused concepts from Simon & Kirby's time with Archie. Stan wasn't happy with it and git Ditko to retool and Ditko kind of took it into different territory.    Stan's assertion that he was influenced by the pulp hero, the Spider, doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, as there is nothing in the pulp hero, other than the name, in Spider-Man. That is, in the pulp magazines. There is a connection with the movie serials. The character in the pulps wear a suit and cape and a fright mask, carries guns and leaves a trail of bodies, plus he stamps his symbol on them. With the serial, they got rid of the fright mask and gave him a mask and cloak, covered in a web design...  The Spider seems a bit more up Ditko's (and Kirby's) alley, than Stan's, if you ask me; but, who knows? Given we could never get a definitive story out of any of the parties, it will likely remain supposition. |
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Post by nerdygirl905 on Jun 17, 2020 14:11:27 GMT -5
The now inexistent blog Dial B for Blog had a theory that was Superboy who inspired Spider-Man a bit, at least, with the kid with powers and eldery family member thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2020 4:59:34 GMT -5
The now inexistent blog Dial B for Blog had a theory that was Superboy who inspired Spider-Man a bit, at least, with the kid with powers and eldery family member thing. That's interesting, I'll have to see if I can find it. I can't remember where, but I did read something that retconning Superboy into Superman's mythos, and the creation of Supergirl, was probably inspired by Captain Marvel Jr. and Mary Marvel. Like I said about my hypothesis, you can never prove these things. But then again, a forum is about speculation. There has to be something to go on. And I confess that me thinking Captain Marvel might have inspired Spidey is a huge leap, but that's what a discussion board is about, eh? I do realise there can be such a thing as coincidence, too. I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, but I have read interviews with comic creators where they are asked about whether this and that inspired something they created - and in some cases their reply was, "Well, I hadn't even heard of that, so there's no way that could have inspired me." And I accept that. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 18, 2020 8:16:23 GMT -5
The now inexistent blog Dial B for Blog had a theory that was Superboy who inspired Spider-Man a bit, at least, with the kid with powers and eldery family member thing. That's interesting, I'll have to see if I can find it. I can't remember where, but I did read something that retconning Superboy into Superman's mythos, and the creation of Supergirl, was probably inspired by Captain Marvel Jr. and Mary Marvel. Like I said about my hypothesis, you can never prove these things. But then again, a forum is about speculation. There has to be something to go on. And I confess that me thinking Captain Marvel might have inspired Spidey is a huge leap, but that's what a discussion board is about, eh? I do realise there can be such a thing as coincidence, too. I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head, but I have read interviews with comic creators where they are asked about whether this and that inspired something they created - and in some cases their reply was, "Well, I hadn't even heard of that, so there's no way that could have inspired me." And I accept that. You may be thinking of the Doom Patrol and the X-Men. Interesting thought about the inspiration for Superboy. Supergirl, though, didn’t appear till several years after the demise of the Marvels. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2020 8:50:51 GMT -5
I guess there's so much overlap - and there's nothing necessarily wrong with "inspired by".
I mean, Knight Rider debuted in 1982. It featured a hi-tech black car. Within two years, we had a TV show featuring a hi-tech black helicopter (Airwolf). A year prior to 1984, there was the movie Blue Thunder, featuring a hi-tech helicopter. Then in 1985, we had a TV show featuring a hi-tech black motorcycle (Street Hawk).
All had a very different flavour, but there were similarities, e.g. Michael Knight in Knight Rider was shot in the face, had plastic surgery - and then became a crime-fighter for the Foundation for Law and Government. Street Hawk was a little different, but similar premise: cop suffers knee injury, is rebuilt by a secret government agent and then fights crime in a black vehicle.
As I said, all very different, but perhaps that proliferation of super-vehicle shows, at least on TV, was inspired by Knight Rider.
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