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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 10, 2019 14:20:56 GMT -5
So, views on patriotic gimmicks/patriotic aspects of a character? During the Federation Era, I guess it made sense (maybe) to appeal to the patriotic sensibilities of fans, whether it be Hulk Hogan waving the Stars and Stripes or Sgt. Slaughter defending US freedom. That said, wrestling did seem behind the times, given it was utilising Japanese and German wrestlers as heels long after WWII had ended. There were still some patriotic characters/angles/aspects in the 90s - and beyond, but I think it became less of a 'thing' as time went on. A flag-waving fan favourite debuting today would need more than just the ability to bring the Stars and Stripes to the ring to get over. And that whole Muhammad Hassan against the US mindset angle failed miserably. All that aside, I did like the look and skills of the Patriot (Del Wilkes). I enjoyed his match against Bret Hart at In Your House: Ground Zero - and his earlier work in WCW, teaming with Marcus Bagwell against the likes of Pretty Wonderful. I'm not sure why he left the WWF, but for an industry that can be about appearance as well as talent, the Patriot had a good look, almost like he was straight out of a comicbook. Del Wilkes got his early start in the dying days of the AWA, as The Trooper (dressed as a state police officer). He then turned up in Global, as The Patriot and became their champion. As you say, he had the superhero look and was a decent babyface promo. They ran an angle where he fought his opposite, the Dark Patriot (Doug Gilbert, brother of Eddie). I was surprised when he turned up in the WWF, though he had the size. It was just that Vince had never been big on masked gimmicks (despite Mil Mascaras being huge in New York, in the 70s, when the supposed "ban" on masked wrestlers was lifted, not to mention crowd responses to Tiger Mask and the Cobra). Wilkes was also wrestling in All Japan (as were Phil LaFon and Doug Furnas, who also came into the WWF, at the time). I heard him on a podcast and he spoke about that time. He suffered a torn tricep, which put him on the shelf and was then released by the WWF. He also had drug issues, especially after the injury, as he was convicted of forging prescriptions for painkillers in 2002 and served 4 months. He spoke of his steroid use, dating back to his college football days, as well as cocaine. Patriotic gimmicks go way back, to people like Mr America Gene Stanley. it was often played up when American babyfaces faced "German" and "Russian" heels. Dick Murdoch, when he would be a face, would be Captain Redneck, playing up his down home patriotism, against the likes of the Iron Sheik, in Georgia. Slaughter had been a heel, until they did the staredown, with the Sheik, in the WWF and then turned face. Hacksaw Dugan used patriotic angles when he turned face in Mid-South, as he breaks from the Rat Pack (Dugan, Ted Dibiase and Matt Borne), over the influence of Skandor Ackbar as manager. He continued that persona in the WWF, against the Sheik, until they were busted, riding together, with marijuana and cocaine in their possession. Vince fired them; Bill Watts would have probably put a contract out on the pair. Bob Armstrong would bring up his Marine past, when facing foreign heels, as did Dutch Mantell (army). With the 80s, you got a bunch of military gimmicks (thanks to Rambo), with Corporal Kirschner, Ranger Ross, Pvt Terry Daniels (sidekick to Sgt Slaughter) and more. The most ridiculous was in the AWA, when Greg Gagne trained with Sgt Slaughter and started coming to the ring in camo, with a headband (on his balding head). He never quite recovered from the stupidity of that gimmick. The funny thing is, more often than not, the foreign heels were not legit. Sheik was one of the few; but, he left Iran long before Khomeni came to power and had no affinity to the regime; but, it made him a top heel. In the WWA, Central States and Portland, there was Sheil Ali Hassan (or Sheik Abdul, oor Abdul Ali Hassan), who was an American, from Danville, IL, named Jim Kruger. Ivan Koloff was Canadian and Nikita Koloff was really Scott Simpson, from Minnesota (one of the Robbinsdale, MN crowd). Fritz Von Erich was Jack Adkisson, a football standout at SMU, in Texas. 50s heel Hans Schmidt was a French Canadian. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 15:08:56 GMT -5
So, views on patriotic gimmicks/patriotic aspects of a character? During the Federation Era, I guess it made sense (maybe) to appeal to the patriotic sensibilities of fans, whether it be Hulk Hogan waving the Stars and Stripes or Sgt. Slaughter defending US freedom. That said, wrestling did seem behind the times, given it was utilising Japanese and German wrestlers as heels long after WWII had ended. There were still some patriotic characters/angles/aspects in the 90s - and beyond, but I think it became less of a 'thing' as time went on. A flag-waving fan favourite debuting today would need more than just the ability to bring the Stars and Stripes to the ring to get over. And that whole Muhammad Hassan against the US mindset angle failed miserably. All that aside, I did like the look and skills of the Patriot (Del Wilkes). I enjoyed his match against Bret Hart at In Your House: Ground Zero - and his earlier work in WCW, teaming with Marcus Bagwell against the likes of Pretty Wonderful. I'm not sure why he left the WWF, but for an industry that can be about appearance as well as talent, the Patriot had a good look, almost like he was straight out of a comicbook. Sorry, but this is one area that I hardly pay much attention to and the only match that I watched at one time was the Hogan/Ultimate Warrior vs Triangle of Terror led by Sgt. Slaughter back in 1991. It wasn't that memorable of a match and I just felt it was more a gimmick sort of speak. I just can't remember much of it and did not impact me as a fan back then. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 15:32:07 GMT -5
The Triangle of Terror match is one of the best matches in WWF history, far better than anything the NWA/JCP/WCW put on.
Don't run! I am joking.
The Hogan/Slaughter feud peaked with WrestleMania VII. I wanted to see the belt back on Hogan, but that's where the feud should have ended. There was a reasonably entertaining match during the 1991 world tour where Hogan and Warrior took on Undertaker, Sgt. Slaughter & Gen. Adnan. But I lost interest in the feud, and the SummerSlam 1991 main event was terrible.
Returning to the Patriot, I do miss gimmicks in the WWF. I know some still exist, but many wrestle under their real names (or a real-sounding name). Where are the gimmicks? I am not suggesting the return of Duke Droese and Henry Godwinn, but the Patriot had such a great look. I was in awe of his mask and outfit. And I enjoyed the match he and Vader had against Bret Hart & Davey Boy Smith.
I do think the patriotism angle is dead. It can possibly exist, but I think if a flag-waving hero played the jingoism/patriotism character today, it might fall on deaf ears. Maybe.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 11, 2019 21:44:41 GMT -5
RIP to Rene Goulet, former WWWF Tag Team Champion, assistant to Andre the Giant, and WWF agent.  Real name Robert Bernard, from Quebec City, Quebec. Goulet began wrestling in 1957 and worked the Canadian promotions and some of the American territories, including the WWWF, AWA, WWA (Indianapolis), Pacific Northwest, and Georgia. He was one half of the Legionnaires tag-team, with Don Fargo, then Zarinoff LeBeuf, as Jacques Goulet. He split his time between the WWA and AWA (Bruiser and Snyder co-promoted Chicago, with Verne Gagne). He was Ric Flair's second match, when he started in the AWA, and was a partner to Andre, in Japan. He had the first WWF match televised on the USA Network and spent some years as a road agent for the WWF. (With Don Fargo, as the Legionnaires) Fargo left after a fight with Goulet, necessitating a new Legionnaire. Rene Goulet and Chris Markoff (former tag partner of Angelo Poffo, as the Devil's Duo) against Brett Hart (spelling on the graphic) and Chick Donovan (long time Georgia undercard wrestler) |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 11, 2019 21:59:48 GMT -5
ps The Georgia match was from 1979. Bret wrestled there for a couple of months, probably to get some seasoning, though it could have been a slow time for Stamped (it was Oct-beginning of Dec) He was announced as being from Montana, which seems odd and no connection is made to Stu. He did come through Georgia again, briefly, before going into the WWF. That short (2nd) stint is where I first saw him, after reading an article about him, in a wrestling mag (one of the Starlog group mags).
Donovan is fairly young there and would bulk up a bit, when I saw him, in '83, in Georgia, as "Golden Boy" Chick Donovan. He was one of the jobbers who got some offense in.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 7:36:13 GMT -5
I've seen little of his work, but know his history.
Again, this is where the Apter and Starlog magazines were such a godsend to me. WWF Magazine was the publication that was on every shelf each month. I had no problem getting that. The Apter and Starlog mags were hit and miss (much like comics!). One month might see Sports Review Wrestling on the shelf, but the next month might feature one of the Starlog magazines. However, I got a lot of them.
So it was really those publications that not only taught me about non-WWF promotions, but also about pre-Hulkamania wrestling. I remember seeing images of Ted DiBiase prior to his WWF tenure, features on the Freebirds, photos of Starrcade 1983, etc.
Rene Goulet was featured in many of those magazines, too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 9:42:17 GMT -5
Rene Goulet ... I hardly knew him and I only know Andre the Giant in the 60's on and sadly I did not follow Canadian Wrestling until Bret Hart broke in the scenes. I'm surprise to read that he worked in the Pacific Northwest Territories and all that and sadly that name did not ring a bell to me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 12:41:24 GMT -5
Question: what do you think of the nWo being inducted into the WWF Hall of Fame in 2020?
I think it is deserved. For that brief moment of eternity, WCW beat the WWF in the ratings - and while the nWo became too big, and allowed everyone from Buff Bagwell to Santa Claus to join, it did change the game a little. I mean, let's not forget that Steve Austin's rise to the top aside, around the time the nWo were heating up, the WWF was still promoting a pig farmer, plumber, garbage disposal man, hockey player and whatever the hell Jim Neidhart was supposed to be behind that WHO? mask.
The nWo was fun while it lasted. I think its hottest moments were its genesis at Bash at the Beach 1996 to Starrcade 1996. During that period, the nWo were fun to watch, they dominated and ruled the world (so to speak). And, slowly, dents were made against them, culminating in Piper outwrestling Hogan at Starrcade 1996.
After that? There was still some momentum, but as time went on, unbeatable equates to boring, like watching a supervillain who is never gonna get beaten no matter what superheroes throw at him. As I said, unbeatable equates to boring. There was some fun mileage in nWo Black and White vs. nWo Wolfpac, but I think the angle/group outstayed their welcome. And it did get depressing because no matter how many pinfalls WCW gained, the nWo would get their losses reversed - or win a rematch.
But for that short time, they were fun - and I think they deserve a Hall of Fame slot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 13:29:05 GMT -5
@taxidriver1980 ... I don't pay attention to WWE anymore and I just feel that I have very harsh feelings about it and I'm not a fan of the nWo at all. They are much worse than Aces and Eights and they were on television so long it's started to bore me and when Hogan defaced the WCW Title Belt -- he did a grave injustice to it. In my own mind, they don't belong in it honestly ... and I don't like them when they were introduced later on in WWE neither. I know they are in ... but, I think they entertained fans the "wrong way" and that's why I don't like nWo at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 14:58:20 GMT -5
That's fine, each to their own.  |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 12, 2019 20:48:22 GMT -5
I think the Hall of Fame is a complete joke, especially with guys like Vince's driver and people like Teddy Long in there. It's whoever Vince wants in there, regardless of how little they contributed to the success of the WWF or their place in wrestling history. It will never be legitimate and it doesn't include WWWF Champion Ivan Koloff, yet has SD Jones? This thing has Trump in it, for Thesz' sake! Bob Armstrong is in because they were doing the ceremony in Atlanta and 3 of his sons worked in the WWE. Bob did some shots there; but, was not a national draw, apart from the GCW show on WTBS. He was a Georgia and Southeastern mainstay and a huge talent; but, not what you'd call Hall of Fame material. Ivory and Luna Vachon are in but not Peggy Banner or Ella Waldek? June Byers? Joyce Grable?
It's a joke; but it's all there is, except for the legit Hall of Fame, in Iowa, which covers amateur and professional wrestling, with a far stricter criteria. The Wrestling Observer HOF is closer to being legit, based on the way people are voted in, like in baseball.
The irony of things is how even legends got in. Bruno turned them down for years and HHH finally was able to broker a peace to get him to accept. Randy Savage only went in after his death and Lanny agreed to it, after promising Randy it would only be considered if it was the entire Poffo family, like the Von Erichs. Verne Gagne went in only with the sale of the AWA library and the promise of a job for Greg. Greg didn't get much of a tenure as a road agent. The Von Erich contingent was part of the sale of the WCCW library.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 21:09:54 GMT -5
You are right on the nose ... and I agree with you 100% on everything you written ^^^ here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 21:14:59 GMT -5
There's no arguing with the logic. I mean, I once said that the Hall of Fame was the equivalent of Hasbro's (or Mattel's) WWF action figure line: at some point, everyone will be in it!
And that is what it is, a marketing gimmick. I mean, it's a bid odd that the Ultimate Warrior went from being the subject of a DVD called "The Self-Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior" to a Hall of Fame inductee. So it's hard to entirely take it seriously, I know.
I enjoy it on one level (the marketing gimmick), but it is the equivalent of Hasbro's 90s toy line! And as time goes on, it does seem like almost everyone will be in there.
If I had my way, the WWF Hall of Fame would be an event (and physical location) that took place every 5 years - and maybe had just a few inducted.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 12, 2019 22:21:58 GMT -5
I'll give them credit, as they do the ceremony up right (unless you are Mil Mascaras or Antonio Inoki and aren't seen on the US feed) Bobby Heenan's induction speech was hilarious.
(audio only)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 10:01:40 GMT -5
Does anyone know if Sgt. Slaughter really received death threats during the Gulf War angle or was it a WWF marketing ploy?
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