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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 13:26:48 GMT -5
I read a letter years ago which claimed Hogan's debut in WCW overshadowed the Piper/Lawler match. But did it really? There was always overlap with wrestling fans, but most of us, myself included, watched both. Sure, American fans had to make a decision when Nitro and Raw went head-to-head. And some PPVs may have aired the same time as a supercard (didn't WM IV air the same night as Clash of the Champions?). But I really don't see how Hogan's WCW debut, and subsequent feud with Ric Flair, could possibly have taken anything away from Piper/Lawler. Fans who were into both would simply have watched both. I just feel, based on my perceptions at the time, that there just wasn't the appetite for Piper/Lawler. It did feel like an afterthought in some respects. They had the KOTR tournament, they had Bret defending the world title, etc. Shouldn't those have sold the PPV? Why the need for a veterans' match? For the record, when WWE Raw and Nitro was on ... TNT at the time replayed Nitro twice and I watch WCW Nitro from 5 to 8 and later watch Raw from 8 to 11. So, for more than 10 years ... I watch Nitro 1st and Raw last. My Cable Company gave me that option. I did not care for the match of Piper/Lawler and any of the KOTR tournaments. I'm not a Lawler fan as a wrestler and I'm a huge fan of Lawler when he was on the microphone in RAW.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 13:36:23 GMT -5
Us Brits didn't have the Monday Night Wars. I don't think we did, anyway. Nitro aired on Fridays. In the pre-internet age, you didn't have to worry about coming across spoilers. I can't remember when Raw aired over here. In later years, it was live, but I think it may have been 4-5 days after its US broadcast. So we didn't have the pleasure of a head-to-head battle. On the subject of US wrestling on UK TV, WCW Worldwide aired from 1992 to 1995. But it was edited. Some episodes were 35 minutes long. I'm guessing they were 50 minutes or more in the US, so that's a cut. They tended to cut out promos and angles. In 1999, Channel 5 aired WCW Worldwide over here - and edited it badly. Remember the "POW" and "ZAP" captions the 60s Batman series used during fight scenes. British airings of WCW Worldwide used similar captions to censor out chair shots! Channel 4 would air Sunday Night Heat here - but the screen froze whenever there was a chair shot. The worst time was when Channel 4 aired a PPV from 1am to 4am, yet despite the late hour, they digitised X-Pac's forehead after he was bleeding - and then froze the screen when the Dudley Boyz put someone through a table. I think it was Backlash 2000 they did that to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:23:37 GMT -5
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 23, 2019 17:08:17 GMT -5
Remains to be seen. AEW has problems with their product, with an excess of comedy, from indy guys who don't really know how to work. They do have some seasoned guys who do and they have presented an alternative that has done well on PPV, though curiosity buys factor big in that. Right now, the question is can they attract an audience beyond wrestling die-hards? That's the real ticket to success in these battles. WWE hasn't drawn that in years and their die-hards have decreased; but, NXT picked up a lot of them. So, right now, it's like a battle of DC and Marvel, where they are battling for far less than a million readers. Until you are talking numbers that include a broader audience, it isn't much of a war. Vince responds well to outside threats and has weathered many. Some fear that his deeper handling of NXT, vs Triple H, will destroy what makes it attractive. that is a definite possibility; but, an invigorated and challenged Vince McMahon is a dangerous opponent. This might just be the kick in the pants he needed. That said, i've heard some of the naysaying from Jim Cornette and he has some very valid criticisms. other than Cody & Dustin Rhodes and Jericho, you have a lot of indie guys that have been passed over by the WWE or haven't been around enough to even be noticed. A few had short term dabblings, I believe, though I don't recognize many of these guys. Of the indie guys, Christopher Daniel, Frankie Kazarian and Cima are the most experienced; but, they have been passed over, for years. The best daniels achieved was a brief stint with WCW, near their end, before he was badly injured. He was used well in TNA and it didn't really mean a thing. CIMA was a trainee of Ultimo Dragon's Toryumon promotion, and one of its stars; but, it didn't survive. he's worked for other Japanese groups and US indies; but, has never been hired by New japan, Al Japan or Noah, which speaks a lot about his ability to draw. On the women's side, the only name I know is Awesome Kong, Kia Stevens, who has a ton of attention, due to GLOW. If that continues and she gets more Hollywood offers as a result, she will be out of there like a shot. Kenny Omega has time with New Japan and the Young Bucks, as well; but, the WWE hasn't come calling. They have internet fans; but, they aren't exactly drawing major crowds, the PPV show notwithstanding. So, you got a lot of wannabes, some never-have-beens and some used-to-bes; is that enough to get people to watch for more than a PPV and the opening weeks? That is the real question. If they can offer a real alternative and capture the imagination of a wider audience, then they could seriously challenge the WWE. However, they are a long way from being a touring company and a tv show. TNA never really got beyond a tv show. Also, Tony Kahn is playing with Daddy'd money. What happens if Daddy isn't satisfied with his return on investment? Lot of questions and not many answers; but, what is known is that Vince is very dangerous when he feels challenged. TNA and ROH never rose to that; will AEW? A lot depends on at least the first 4-6 weeks of tv.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 23, 2019 18:24:32 GMT -5
Here's my thing and why I tend to go along with Jim Cornette's take on these things. I became a die-hard fan around 1982. Here's the landscape then:
You had three major forces in wrestling: The WWF (under Vince Sr), the AWA (under Verne Gagne) and the NWA, as a conglomerate of promoters. Within the NWA:
Mid-Atlantic, under Jim Crockett. They controlled the World title, with Flair, were in a great geographic location, and did strong business in their regular towns, plus, they were pioneers in closed-circuit events.
Georgia Championship Wrestling-they had the World Championship Wrestling tv show on the national WTBS cable network and were their top rated show. They got talent from all over to be featured on the show and appear on cards for them. they were also doing big business in Michigan and Ohio, after picking up towns when the Sheik closed down the detroit territory.
Championship Wrestling from Florida-They had Dusty Rhodes booking one of the hottest angles in wrestling, with Kevin Sullivan and his dark army.
Continental Championship Wrestling-They were running successful shows in Pensacola and in Alabama, with shows in Knoxville that did okay, after Knoxville had been killed in a territorial war. The Knoxville end was sold to Flair & BlackJack Mulligan, who gave it up relatively quickly. It lay fallow unti Fuller started up again in 1988.
World Class Championship Wrestling-Dallas was on fire with the freebirds/Von Erich feud and the show also had national syndication, state of the art tv presentation, and rock star status for the Von Erich boys.
Mid-South Championship Wrestling-Med-South was on fire with the Junkyard Dog, Ted Dibiase, Hacksaw Jim Duggan and was soon to gain the Rock N Roll Express and Midnight Express for the start of their legendary feud.
Houston-Paul Boesch was drawing bit gates at the Sam houston Colosseum, with talent from Mid-South and other promotions.
Southwest Championship Wrestling-Joe Blanchard had national tv, on the USA Network, giving exposure to his son, Tully and Gino Hernandez, as well as a variety of seasoned veterans and up and coming stars. they also got appearances from AWA World champion Nick Bockwinkel. However, they would soon be delinquent in payments to USA for the show (upwards of $7K a month) and some violent and tacky angles led to them getting kicked off, in favor of the WWF, within a year or so.
Continental Wrestling Association-Memphis was on fire from exposure nationally, via the Andy Kaufman/Jerry Lawler feud, top talent like Superstar Bill Dundee, Dutch Mantell, Bobby eaton, Koko Ware, Ricky and Robert Gibson, and Jimmy Hart. The Hart First Family vs Jerry Lawler was drawing big numbers weekly, at the Mid-South Colosseum. The Fabulous Ones debuted to massive houses, leading to a B-team tag-team, that would consist of young ricky Morton and Robert Gibson, while older brother Ricky moved on to other things (and a car accident).
WWA-Indianapolis was in a slow decline and had been since the mid-late 70s. They were running fewer towns and their fans were aging out. They did not develop much young talent, apart from sons-in-law Spike Huber and Steve Regal and neither did much in other territories. WWA was a place for old guys to run out the clock and cheaper young guys to get a few shows. They hung on for a few more years, mostly by not paying much. Houses were still strong in Indianapolis and Chicago (which Bruiser & Snyder co-owned, with Verne gagne); but, more of the talent on those shows were from the AWA.
ICW-still battling memphis; but, they had peaked and they were trying to run a wide stretch of towns, from West Virginia to Missouri, with Lexington, KY as their biggest city. Their only real draws were Randy Savage and Ronnie Garvin and they had run through every possible scenario, until the very end, in the next year, where Garvin turned heel and Randy became a face, by default. Garvin would soon leave and randy would ened up going into memphis, for his first big program in years.
St Louis-St Louis still did Wrestling at the chase and shows at the Kiel Auditorium; but, Sam Muchnick was looking to retire and would in the following year or so. St Louis, though, was still a major showcase for NWA and AWA talent and Sam got the best for his shows.
Central States-Kansas City was another low money town, whose top draw was Harley Race. They did get some young talent to develop and KC, itself, drew well, though their other towns didn't. they provided some talent for St Louis, for their other main draw.
Portland-Don Owens was doing good business with a young Curt Hennig, visits from Roddy Piper, Dynamite Kid spent time there, and locals like Playboy Buddy Rose and the Grappler (Len Deaton) were drawing strong crowds. Portland was a great training ground for a lot of young US and Canadian talent.
Hawaii-the Maivias were promoting, but business depended on strong cards, with wrestlers stopping over going to and coming back from Japan. They would continue a few more years, using the name Polynesian Pacific Wrestling, before finally shut down, in the wake of criminal charges of extortion and making threats (exonerated) and a lack of affordable talent.
AWA-Verne was doing strong business, with some key big cities: Minneapolis, Chicago, Denver, Salt Lake City, Winnipeg, and San Francisco. They had a light schedule, but drew well and made good money. Hulk Hogan would come in there, with Rocky 3 and be a massive draw. Bockwinkel and Heenan (and Ray Stevens) were big draws on the heel side. the High Flyers (Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell) were the top team and drew money. they had a good operation going, and got foreign talent from canada, Europe and Japan, as well as sent their guys to those places.
WWF-Madison Square Garden was doing big business and bob Backlund was a strong draw as champion. Jimmy Snuka was massively popular, though a heel. pedro Morales still drew as IC champ and Tiger Mask did some shows as Jr Heavyweight champ, electrifying crowds. WWF guys worked for New Japan and some New Japan guys (Tiger Mask, Dynamite Kid, Tatsumi Fujinami) made appearances for MSG cards, adding an international flavor. They were sticking to their territorial base; but, with New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh as major towns, they had the biggest population centers.
Los Angeles and detroit were gone, victims of an aged territory and no new stars. It became too expensive in LA and the Sheik was too old in Detroit. His towns were swallowed up by Georgia and Indianapolis.
Canada was thriving with various promotions.
The Maritimes were being run seasonally by Emil Dupree and would continue for a few more years, before the WWF exposure in Canada led to a drop in business. Toronto was run by Jack Tunney and drew big crowds, with wrestlers from Canada and from Mid-Atlantic. Montreal was strong, with the Maple Leaf Gardens doing big business, with the Rougeaus, Gino brito, Rick Martel, and Dino Bravo. Stampede was in a revival period, with bret Hart becoming a seasoned pro, Dynamite Kid was electrifying the crowds and Bad News Allen was splitting time between there and New Japan (as was Dynamite). Bruce and Kieth Hart kept their hands in things and Archie Gouldie, the Stomper, continued to scare the crap out of people (when he wasn't working in the Southeast US, as the Mongolian Stomper). Stampede also got talent from Japan and the UK, which kept their style fast and hard-hitting, setting the tone for the 80s and 90s. Vancouver was doing okay, but was a lower echelon territory, much like the Maritimes.
The Caribbean was strong, with the World Wrestling council in Puerto Rico doing great business and Jack Veneno drawing in the Dominican Republic. There were thriving promotions in Australia and New Zealand and Mexico had EMLL and UWA doing great business, plus some independent promoters running shows. Japan had New Japan and All-Japan, plus All Japan Women all doing well. All Japan Women was drawing massive crowds, with the crush Gals, who were also pop stars and created a whole generation of fans of womens wrestling. Tiger Mask and Dynamite Kid were revolutionizing the junior heavyweight division, in New Japan and All Japan started to respond more in their own. Both promotions were doing big business with Inoki and Fujinami, in New Japan and Baba and Jumbo tsuruta in All Japan. Inoki had Hulk Hogan and some of the Stampede crowd, plus Andre the Giant and other WWF guys working for him and Baba had the Funks and many NWA and AWA stars.
The UK still has a decent business going, with both Joint Promotions and Brian Dixon's All Star putting on shows and World of Sport broadcast on Saturdays, while Otto Wanz was doing well with his shows in germany and Austria. France still had pro wrestling, though not for much longer, and there were promotions in Wales (Oric Williams) and Northern ireland (Fit Finlay's father). Argentina had a thriving wrestling show Tirantes en el Ring, which had a banner year, in 1982. They had a mix of locals and imported talent (mostly from mexico and Puerto Rico). EMLL and Puerto Rico both had tours and wrestlers involved in tours of several Latin American countries.
Wrestling was a thriving industry. There was no national promotion; but, nearly everyone was doing well within their territories, drawing good money with the same circuit of towns. That began to change, by 1984, as the economic recession hurt many areas, and the advent of cable brought exposure of other, better promotions. When Vince started expanding, he went into targeted areas and offered his tv show for free (actually bought time) in exchange for the ad revenue, where local shows were often paid for by the tv station or local promotions paid the station to air their show. Many smaller promotions lost tv, which meant no way to market their local shows and attendance dropped. they started closing up and selling off. Vince bought out Toronto and Stampede, in Canada, and St Louis and Houston, in the US, then bought Georgia; but failed there and the Crocketts ended up with it. money troubles and alcoholism led to Eddie Graham's suicide, after Dusty went to the Crocketts, taking many of his guys with them and Florida sank rapidly, selling out to Crockett. Southwest shut down, Kansas City eventually sold to Crockett and World Class suffered through the Von Erich tragedies. Memphis and Continental stayed relatively strong, for a while; but, Robert Fuller sold off Continental by the latter 80s, before briefly opening Knoxville again. the buyers of the Alabama end ran for about a year or so, then shut down. WWA was gone by about 1987, with Scott Steiner being the only star to emerge from there (and that was due more to his time in Memphis, than Indianapolis/Toldeo). Mid-South changed its name to the Universal Wrestling federation and sold out to Crockett, around 1987/88, in heavy debt. Watts sold for far more than the promotion was worth, due to his syndication package. Crockett thought that would be huge revenue; but, soon was saddled with big debt. The AWA lost a ton of talent in a raid by Vince, which nabbed him Hogan Dave Schultz, Jesse Ventura, Gene Okerlund and Bobby Heenan. others followed. The got a deal for national tv on ESPN; but, verne wasn't willing to move with the times and his presentation remained old school, which didn't help showcase the young talent he had, like Curt Hennig and Scott Hall. hennig was eventually made world champion, then quickly got signed to the WWF. Hall took longer, returning to WCW, before ending up as Razor Ramon. Leon White went to Japan and made his name and returned to WCW. Verne was stuck with son-in-law, Larry Zbysko, who was never a draw, without Bruno. he shut down by 1991. World Class sold off to Jerry Jarret, who tried to run both, as the USWA, before abandoning the Texas end, when the Von Erich boys caused him headaches. They tried continuing it and folded quickly. Global started up there, with what they thought was money; but turned out to e a con and didn't last long. memphis soldiered on into the 90s, before selling out and the buyer lost his shirt. ECW and Smokey Mountain emerged in the mid-90s, though neither survived the decade.
Really, in the course of ten years, you went from a thriving worldwide industry to two dominate promotions in the US and Canada, a mix in mexico and Japan (with major ups and downs there), the all but death of native wrestling in the UK and a much smaller presence in Germany and a few indy promotions paying peanuts. In another 10 years, there was one US promotion, Japan was 3 promotions, none of whom wer very strong) and mexico was split by two major promotions, who survive on sponsorship from Corona and others, while their guys make little money, due to the economy and crime.
Attempts at creating a real alternative to the WWF/WWE haven't born out anything of lasting note. TNA was never very big and was mostly a tv and PPV company that didn't earn a dime. Ring of Honor is an independent that has survived; but, doesn't rally employ anyone full time. Billy Corrigan's NWA isn't even a promotion; just a set of trademarks licensed for use to other promotions. They are set to start tv; but, with what? Will it be something new or another money sinkhole? AEW? Lot of noise and a couple of big ticket sale events; but, a long road ahead. Will Tony Kahn be a deluded money mark or will he help bring in a new wrestling craze? Lucha Underground? Good tv show, not much more. The WWE has looked to the future, with NXT; but, their core business is down. However, they have deep cash reserves and know how to run lean, with strong revenue streams beyond live shows and PPV. They are wrestling in the eyes of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 18:42:10 GMT -5
I read codystarbuck opinions here and I hope that he's wrong ... but looks like the handwriting on the wall that's he might be 1000% right. I was hoping for AEW to explode on the scene and take away the spotlights on WWE and thrive in today's wrestling scenes. I do watch Ring of Honor and Lucha Underground. I saw some recent TNA stuff and all that and some of my friends are encouraging me to watch it. I don't care for Global Championship Wrestling and I'm not a fan of NXT because they don't relate to me and the products does not excite me at all. I'm basically fed up with both Raw and Smackdown because the McMahon Family, Triple H, and I don't care for Shane McMahon at all. If AEW fails ... my days of watching Pro Wrestling will be over.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 23, 2019 22:01:39 GMT -5
AEW, at least on paper, seems to have the cash to at least last a year or two, with losses. The tv time on TNT is encouraging and ironic; the only reason Vince got WCW, for a song, was Warner dropped it completely from TNT and TBS. They didn't want wrestling on their networks. Now, cable is so diluted they need content and wrestling drew strong ratings, at one point. Good tv will be a start; but, that means doing way better than TNA ever did. Not letting Vince Russo anywhere near things is a good start. Doing goofy comedy stuff, like on their PPV, is not a good idea and using a guy whose gimmick is to keep his hands in his pocket, who has never drawn anywhere, is questionable. If Cody Rhodes is running things, there are definite possibilities. He and Dustin learned a lot from their father and Vince. If they can apply those lessons, they have a shot. if they can be half as creative as Dusty was, they have a shot. From what I've heard, the better stuff with the PPVs came from Cody.
It's gonna be rocky, at the start. Nothing ever comes off perfect, in entertainment, first time. All tv shows go throw a development process, as they see what the audience does and does not respond to. With TNA, the problem was that the idiot writing the thing had the attention span of a flea in heat (Russo) and kept changing things. That led to him being pushed aside for smarter heads (Dutch Mantel, Jim Cornette and Terry Taylor. However, Russo was still involved, which kept undercutting things and Cornette and he couldn't work together and poor Dutch was going nuts trying to make it work and keep Cornette from killing Russo. Dixie Carter was a total mark and spent more time trying to get herself on tv.
Ring of Honor should have had the tools; but, Sinclair isn't willing to spend money on it to let it grow. Cornette got fed up with trying to get simple things, like better lighting and equipment for better presentation. If Sinclair ever wanted to really try, Ring of Honor could be a contender.
Right now, AEW is a lot of IFs. WWE has deep pockets and can weather things for a long time. They also have an advantage of name recognition and they are the big time. You can't really undercut the mystique of putting on matches in madison Square Garden, even though there are bigger arenas. The name carries a massive history with it.
If AEW can establish a strong tv show, they could then tour on the strength of it; but, that requires people with experience in touring entertainments. Most of those people in wrestling work for Vince. You need people who have worked with things like Ice Capades, Cirque d' Soleil, or circuses, for that kind of experience beyond wrestling. You also need good local promoters to sell tickets to the local shows. You need merchandise for fans, which means suppliers, marketing, and distribution. Lot of infrastructure that hasn't been considered, at this point.
Vince and Crockett had advantages, when they went national. Both were strong regional promoters, who drew big houses. Both had major national tv (Vince on USA Network and Crockett on WTBS, after he bought the slot from Vince). Both had dabbled in closed-circuit and made the natural segue to PPV. Vince played dirty and used extortion to block Crockett's drawing ability with their early PPVs and Crockett responded with free shows to undercut Vince's PPVs. Then, when they sold to Turner, they had enough muscle to get the PPV providers to play ball. However, Turner kept putting inexperienced people in charge. As Cornette has detailed, they were building the ratings and houses, with Flair in charge of booking, until he got sick and tired of Herd undercutting his authority and attempts to push him aside (and dumb ideas, like the Ding Dongs and Oz). I took nearly 10 years for Turner's people to make a profit with WCW and they lost it in 2 years and sank it. Vince has weathered the iffy nature of Wrestlemania, steroid scandals, Snuka probably murdering his girlfriend, drug scandals, molestation scandals, bad buy rates and house show attendance, locker dissention and a company that could outspend him. It was bad in the early to mid-90s and Vince even had a plan in place if he was convicted on the steroid distribution charges. jerry Jarrett, of Memphis, was in place to run the company, on a lean budget, until Vince was released, as he was the only long-term success as a promoter in the business, running on low payoffs and a tight organization. Memphis only went under after Jarrett sold off. With TNA, he sold out because he was butting heads with his own son, over Russo's inane booking and decided to walk, rather than totally destroy his relationship with Jeff (which has always been rocky and still suffered). Jerry had a huge income from real estate ventures and contracting and didn't need wrestling.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 23:12:38 GMT -5
I don't like what I'm reading ^^^ and thanks for the "heads up" ...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 3:53:18 GMT -5
I know we're not gonna get an equivalent of the "Monday Night Wars" as circumstances are so different now (as Cody has conveyed). The "Monday Night Wars" occurred due to a specific set of circumstances. And it got personal. It was never gonna be personal between Vince and Dixie, nor can I see it being personal between WWE and AEW.
Cody's points about merchandising and infrastructure are spot on!
There also has to be a maximum amount of time that even the most ardent fan wants to spend on wrestling.
I don't watch Raw. I see highlights, read about it - and watch any matches I may have heard good things about. But I have no desire to watch a show that is three hours long every week. That's too much. Binge-watching a TV series that only produces 22 episodes, and goes on hiatus, is one thing; keeping up with 3 hours of a show that airs weekly, and never takes a break, is the definition of boredom for me.
I used to watch a lot of the syndicated shows back in the day. Many of them repeated content, e.g. didn't the likes of Action Zone re-air a lot of stuff we'd already seen on shows such as Wrestling Challenge? One hour of Monday Night Raw was enough for me. And so was one hour of WCW Monday Nitro. As time goes on, though, it becomes unwieldy and counter-productive. Less is more.
I like The Flash, but if it aired weekly, and every episode was 3 hours long, NO THANKS!
Even the most ardent wrestling fan has to have some sort of life outside wrestling. Many of us have jobs, we like to visit family, read, play music, socialise, etc. So I just don't see the appeal of a 3-hour wrestling show. And I find it quite disturbing (that's a strong word, I know) that one wrestling site published rumours that SmackDown may go to 3 hours. Really?!! Talk about audiences burning out.
There was a lot of wrestling airing during the "Monday Night Wars". And it did become unwieldy. You'd look at your watch and think, 'Do I really want to stick with this 3-hour Nitro?' I do want to see other wrestling (NJPW, ROH, etc). TNA lost me a long time ago, I only have a cursory glance of their stuff. I will check in on AEW.
I know there are many things competing for our attention outside wrestling, e.g. comics. But think of it like this. That is easier to keep up with. Some Netflix shows may only air 10-13 40-minute episodes. You could buy 20 comics from various publishers - and you could probably read them in 3-4 hours. You can pace yourself. But wrestling demands a lot of your time. Three hours of Raw a week is a lot. Who really wants that if they are honest with themselves?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 3:57:23 GMT -5
I also find it very disappointing that neither JBL nor Paul Heyman let this fan speak or put forward his case for Raw being shorter:
So, the host lets JBL and Heyman put forward their case for why the show should be 3 hours long. Fair enough. Yet when he tries to put forward his case for it being reduced to 2 hours, they constantly interrupt. I don't think he finished a single point. It's a real shame he never got to talk more about why he believed Raw should be 2 hours long.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 10:59:50 GMT -5
Don't let me discourage anyone from watching AEW and wishing it well. I'd like it to succeed; But, if anyone thinks it will drive the WWE out of business, they are nuts. Even if it doesn't become the biggest company in wrestling, if it can be a strong number 2, with alternative programming, that should be enough to liven things up. It might be enough of a challenge to get Vince to improve his own show. That's what happened in the Monday Night Wars. Vince's stars were leaving for WCW, their houses and buy rates were way down and things looked dire. Then, he started pushing Austin, Rock and Foley, ran fresh angles on tv and built to his strongest business in a decade. WCW mismanaged things and went into freefall. WWF was not only watchable again, it was better.
I'm just saying that AEW is not going to become number 2 overnight. It will take gradual growth and a string of successes and it will take being a true alternative to the WWE. It's possible. We won't know until we see their tv and where they go from there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 11:18:41 GMT -5
Don't let me discourage anyone from watching AEW and wishing it well. I'd like it to succeed; But, if anyone thinks it will drive the WWE out of business, they are nuts. Even if it doesn't become the biggest company in wrestling, if it can be a strong number 2, with alternative programming, that should be enough to liven things up. It might be enough of a challenge to get Vince to improve his own show. That's what happened in the Monday Night Wars. Vince's stars were leaving for WCW, their houses and buy rates were way down and things looked dire. Then, he started pushing Austin, Rock and Foley, ran fresh angles on tv and built to his strongest business in a decade. WCW mismanaged things and went into freefall. WWF was not only watchable again, it was better. I'm just saying that AEW is not going to become number 2 overnight. It will take gradual growth and a string of successes and it will take being a true alternative to the WWE. It's possible. We won't know until we see their tv and where they go from there. It's interesting that, a few months prior to Hogan's heel turn, and WCW soaring high, the WWF was still pushing gimmicks such as Who?. TL Hopper, Duke Droese, The Goon, etc. If WCW hadn't started kicking his ass, would the cartoony gimmicks ever have been dropped?
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 11:39:04 GMT -5
Don't let me discourage anyone from watching AEW and wishing it well. I'd like it to succeed; But, if anyone thinks it will drive the WWE out of business, they are nuts. Even if it doesn't become the biggest company in wrestling, if it can be a strong number 2, with alternative programming, that should be enough to liven things up. It might be enough of a challenge to get Vince to improve his own show. That's what happened in the Monday Night Wars. Vince's stars were leaving for WCW, their houses and buy rates were way down and things looked dire. Then, he started pushing Austin, Rock and Foley, ran fresh angles on tv and built to his strongest business in a decade. WCW mismanaged things and went into freefall. WWF was not only watchable again, it was better. I'm just saying that AEW is not going to become number 2 overnight. It will take gradual growth and a string of successes and it will take being a true alternative to the WWE. It's possible. We won't know until we see their tv and where they go from there. It's interesting that, a few months prior to Hogan's heel turn, and WCW soaring high, the WWF was still pushing gimmicks such as Who?. TL Hopper, Duke Droese, The Goon, etc. If WCW hadn't started kicking his ass, would the cartoony gimmicks ever have been dropped? Probably, because they weren't working. Vince dropped most of them fairly quickly, even before. Cornette has talked about Vince's juvenile sense of humor and how people would cater to it. It's oretty coarse and juvenile. However, when business is tanking, they usually buckled down and focused on the basics. WCW was just as bad. Crowds had been booing Hogan since he arrived in WCW and they were dubbing over the crowd noise. The Disney World shows had horrible audiences and looked small time. Their booking was all over the place. They got lucky with the NWO angle; but, the thing that really helped them was Konan bringing in the luchadors and the American and Canadian cruiserweights, mostly stolen from ECW. NWO gave them the big angle; but the cruiserweights were providing the wrestling alternative and their matches drew great ratings. That's why the WWF decided to introduce the Light Heavyweight title (reintroduce really, as they forgot they already had one, in Mexico), with some luchadors and Japanese guys from Michinoku Pro, as well as guys like Scott Taylor and Brian Christopher (Lawler). The WWF even started their Super Astros show, for the Spanish market, though it didn't last long.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 24, 2019 12:35:28 GMT -5
Here's Jim Cornette, on his podcast, talking about how the territories went under, with Vince's expansion and Crockett buying up much of the rest.
At one point, he makes a very good point that applies to the monday Night Wars and after, and, especially, now: Vince couldn't compete when the audience wanted something different. Crockett and the other Southern promotions outlasted the AWA, Los Angeles,, the Canadian promotions, St Louis, Houston, etc. The reason they did was because their fans didn't like the WWF style. georgia demonstrated this the most; Vince had bought controlling stock in the Georgia office (through Jim barnett and the Briscos) and got the WTBS Saturday show (Black Saturday). He then showed taped WWF matches. Fans lit up the phones demanding the return of Gordon Solie (host of WCW) and the wrestling they were used to. Vince continued and ratings took a nose dive. he started taping matches at the WTBS studios and ratings sucked. Turner gave a time slot to both Mid-South and Ole Anderson (Saturday mornings, with what was left of the Georgia crew) and then told Vince to get the ratings up or he was out. Vince sold the timeslot to Crockett fo $1 million. Crockett stayed viable until 1989, because he presented something different. memphis stayed viable because they presented something different. Continental stayed viable, etc. The ones who went under either sold out to Vince, were already weak, or sold to Crockett, or tried to compete with the same thing. TNA never tried to be different; they copied WWE angles. They had one alternative, the X Division, which got depushed in favor of old WWE stars. That doomed it. Plus, Dixie wanted to be Vince, on camera. Ring of Honor has presented an alternative; but, not exactly state of the art tv. Lucha Underground has presented an alternative and does well, except on a more limited viewership. Same with Ring of Honor, as Sinclair wanted content; but, didn't exactly make them a programming priority. Ring of Honor's problem is Sinclair, much like WCW, with Turner. if someone at Sinclair made it their pet project, like Bischoff eventually got Turner to do, in 96/97, Ring of Honor would be a much bigger deal.
That is the key element that AEW needs for long term success: present something different than what the audience can already get from the WWE. That is why NXT was doing so much better; it was different than the main shows. Vince lit his company on fire when he started doing something different than what he had been doing, that turned off the audience.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2019 12:56:54 GMT -5
That's where Russo failed for me in WCW. We didn't want WWF-lite. We didn't want silly angles such as Ric Flair being buried in the desert and the Stacy Keibler/David Flair romance.
I'm not totally blaming Russo. Years before he joined WCW, the promotion was doing silly stuff like the "Search For Cactus Jack" segments or the debut of the Shockmaster. However, Russo seemed to want to turn WCW into WWF-lite, but it was just an inferior version of the Attitude Era, which turned many, many fans away.
I like the variety in wrestling. When I wanted cartoony gimmicks and heavyweight brawls, I'd tune into Prime Time Wrestling and watch the Barbarian go up against the Berzerker. But when I wanted wrestling, I'd tune into WCW Worldwide and watch Barry Windham defend the WCW Television Title against Stunning Steve Austin.
Give people variety - and we all benefit.
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