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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 22, 2017 13:05:06 GMT -5
If publishers want to reach new fans and expand sales, they need to do two things. The first is offer newsprint editions. Alterna Comics recently started printing their comics on newsprint, which is 1/3 the cost of the nice glossy papers used by most publishers. They pass this savings on to customers and price most of their books at $2. Some are as low as $1. One dollar. For a full size comic with all-new content. In 2017. That's almost unbelievable. This wouldn't be appropriate for every book and artist, but it would certainly increase sales of all-ages books like My Little Pony and Ninja Turtles. There's no reason those should be $4 because parents won't pay that on a regular basis. Newsprint may not offer the same color quality, but the goal is to pull in young readers who will stick with the medium and eventually graduate to content that deserves a better presentation. The second thing they should do is emphasize licensed properties that are popular in other media. Cartoons and video game tie-ins will attract new readers who are already fans of the concept. See Dark Horse's success with the Avatar The Last Airbender books for one example. Not all of the new readers will cross-over to reading comic-original properties, but the percentage who do will be non-zero. When I was a boy, I got into comics through Archie's TMNT Adventures and Sonic the Hedgehog. As a college student, I got back into them through Transformers. Licensed properties will draw in new readers. It's the retailer's job to tell the new readers that if they like this, then they should try that. Pricing those comics as low as 2 dollars might cut into the creators wages a bit...
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Post by drewbie on Oct 22, 2017 14:54:26 GMT -5
I've heard that others looked at newsprint before and found the same thing you did - I was surprised to see Alterna found a way for it to work. However they've done it, it seems to be a long term plan. I figured others could piggy back on it.
You make some valid points about people seeing newsprint as a downgrade and the limits of licensed material's appeal, but I think you're imagining a different potential reader than I am. I'm thinking entirely of children under 10. They have no connection with newsprint, but they don't have connections with glossy paper either. The main appeal, in my eye, is that a parent will be more willing to impulse buy a $1 comic for their kid than a $4 one. The age difference also impacts the appeal of licensed material. If a kid likes a cartoon, they'll desire pretty much any product featuring that property. Reaching kids at a young age circumvents the issue of comic literacy - they learn to read comics as they learn to read.
If you want to talk about how to attract new readers who are college-aged or older, it would obviously require different solutions.
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Post by drewbie on Oct 22, 2017 14:59:07 GMT -5
Pricing those comics as low as 2 dollars might cut into the creators wages a bit... It could. I have no idea what kind of payment system Alterna uses, but I assume the creators they're working with are satisfied with it. I'm also not advocating that all comics return to newsprint - just the ones that would appeal most to children and new readers who don't think $4/22 pages is a wise use of entertainment dollars.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 15:19:52 GMT -5
I've heard that others looked at newsprint before and found the same thing you did - I was surprised to see Alterna found a way for it to work. However they've done it, it seems to be a long term plan. I figured others could piggy back on it. You make some valid points about people seeing newsprint as a downgrade and the limits of licensed material's appeal, but I think you're imagining a different potential reader than I am. I'm thinking entirely of children under 10. They have no connection with newsprint, but they don't have connections with glossy paper either. The main appeal, in my eye, is that a parent will be more willing to impulse buy a $1 comic for their kid than a $4 one. The age difference also impacts the appeal of licensed material. If a kid likes a cartoon, they'll desire pretty much any product featuring that property. Reaching kids at a young age circumvents the issue of comic literacy - they learn to read comics as they learn to read. If you want to talk about how to attract new readers who are college-aged or older, it would obviously require different solutions. Pricing those comics as low as 2 dollars might cut into the creators wages a bit... It could. I have no idea what kind of payment system Alterna uses, but I assume the creators they're working with are satisfied with it. I'm also not advocating that all comics return to newsprint - just the ones that would appeal most to children and new readers who don't think $4/22 pages is a wise use of entertainment dollars. Kids under 10 are going to be more attracted to digital comics they can read on a device than any form of print comic, so newsprint or standard will be irrelevant. And digital comics could be much more affordable if the comics industry didn't engage in protective pricing practices on their digital material to preserve print sales for their retail market, and parents would be much more likely to impulse buy a cheap digital comic that doesn't require any physical travel or cost outlay for such than having to travel somewhere to buy a print copy ot ordering a print copy and having to make their child wait for it to arrive by which time interest could have been lost to distraction or other reasons. A huge source or license revenue for Marvel and DC right now is their children's books, such as this one.. or these... or these... that I see all the time at the library, in Wal*Mart's book section, in the book aisle of Kroger's and Meijers, and other places where people actually shop and they sell well in stores and circulate well in libraries. They are actually doing a good job or marketing these characters to kids, the problem being, these aren't comics and they do nothing to promote comics literacy or provide skills for readers to read and enjoy comics. They will make kids fans of the characters, but not readers of the comic format, which are two separate things. So that under 10 audience is being well-served with "comic book" content, just not with actual comic books. they are more illustrated chapter books or illustrated kids books, which is a different animal than learning to decipher visual storytelling that is part and parcel of comic books themselves. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 22, 2017 15:21:12 GMT -5
I've heard that others looked at newsprint before and found the same thing you did - I was surprised to see Alterna found a way for it to work. However they've done it, it seems to be a long term plan. I figured others could piggy back on it. You make some valid points about people seeing newsprint as a downgrade and the limits of licensed material's appeal, but I think you're imagining a different potential reader than I am. I'm thinking entirely of children under 10. They have no connection with newsprint, but they don't have connections with glossy paper either. The main appeal, in my eye, is that a parent will be more willing to impulse buy a $1 comic for their kid than a $4 one. The age difference also impacts the appeal of licensed material. If a kid likes a cartoon, they'll desire pretty much any product featuring that property. Reaching kids at a young age circumvents the issue of comic literacy - they learn to read comics as they learn to read. If you want to talk about how to attract new readers who are college-aged or older, it would obviously require different solutions. Are there licensed products that don't have comics already? I ask because I genuinely don't know. My youngest child is 16, so I pay very little attention at this point to stuff for under 10s. But when I look at solicits on Comixology it seems like every cartoon and TV show has a comic book from someone.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 22, 2017 15:25:11 GMT -5
If publishers want to reach new fans and expand sales, they need to do two things. The first is offer newsprint editions. Alterna Comics recently started printing their comics on newsprint, which is 1/3 the cost of the nice glossy papers used by most publishers. They pass this savings on to customers and price most of their books at $2. Some are as low as $1. One dollar. For a full size comic with all-new content. In 2017. That's almost unbelievable. This wouldn't be appropriate for every book and artist, but it would certainly increase sales of all-ages books like My Little Pony and Ninja Turtles. There's no reason those should be $4 because parents won't pay that on a regular basis. Newsprint may not offer the same color quality, but the goal is to pull in young readers who will stick with the medium and eventually graduate to content that deserves a better presentation. The second thing they should do is emphasize licensed properties that are popular in other media. Cartoons and video game tie-ins will attract new readers who are already fans of the concept. See Dark Horse's success with the Avatar The Last Airbender books for one example. Not all of the new readers will cross-over to reading comic-original properties, but the percentage who do will be non-zero. When I was a boy, I got into comics through Archie's TMNT Adventures and Sonic the Hedgehog. As a college student, I got back into them through Transformers. Licensed properties will draw in new readers. It's the retailer's job to tell the new readers that if they like this, then they should try that. So to paraphrase David Petersen, creator of Mouseguard, at this year's Ringo awards-how many people have you turned on to comics this week? This Year? This decade? It doesn't need to be super-heroes or Marvel and DC. Oh your son likes dinosaurs? Have you ever seen this (fill in name of comics) about Dinosaurs?(he suggested a book on the rivalries in the early days of paleontology whose name escapes me right now). Oh, you like samurai-have you ever seen (fill in the blank comic). Oh, you like horror, have you tried this...? Or whatever thing they like, then follow up with something like I can lend you a copy or hey the library has a copy you can check out of this for free, or I can send you a link for it form Amazon, or recommend a shop where you can get it (but the last one is probably a better second step after they read and like something than a first step) or whatever. That's how comics will get new readers in this day and age. Not formats. Not pricing. Not digital or newsprint, but people who love comics introducing comics to people who are unfamiliar with comics. And don't try to shove your favorites on them, introduce them to things they already like that happen to be in comics format. It's the personal relationship and trust of the people, not the product, that will get them to try it, but you want them to have a positive experience with what you introduce them to or they will never take another recommendation for comics from you again. Remember it's not about you, it's about them and finding something that works for them even if it doesn't work for you the same way. -M I have to agree with this, as well. In fact I'd say that Big Two superhero comics are generally a terrible recommendation for most people. Even if you have people who love, for instance, Marvel movies, the comics are such a continuity heavy, incestuous, rat's nest of stories that they're unlikely to be interested in them anyway.
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Post by drewbie on Oct 22, 2017 15:34:20 GMT -5
Are there licensed products that don't have comics already? I ask because I genuinely don't know. My youngest child is 16, so I pay very little attention at this point to stuff for under 10s. But when I look at solicits on Comixology it seems like every cartoon and TV show has a comic book from someone. There's some. IDW does a lot of current stuff based on current shows (MLP, Transformers). Boom has been doing a lot, but they're more nostalgia-driven (Power Rangers, Rugrats, Fraggle Rock) than current. To my knowledge, modern shows like PJ Masks and Dinotrucks only have picture books, not comics.
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Post by drewbie on Oct 22, 2017 15:40:31 GMT -5
Kids under 10 are going to be more attracted to digital comics they can read on a device than any form of print comic, so newsprint or standard will be irrelevant. You may have a point here. I don't give digital much thought. So that under 10 audience is being well-served with "comic book" content, just not with actual comic books. they are more illustrated chapter books or illustrated kids books, which is a different animal than learning to decipher visual storytelling that is part and parcel of comic books themselves. -M Just because picture books with superheroes exist doesn't mean a child wouldn't want to have a comic too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 16:59:21 GMT -5
Kids under 10 are going to be more attracted to digital comics they can read on a device than any form of print comic, so newsprint or standard will be irrelevant. You may have a point here. I don't give digital much thought. So that under 10 audience is being well-served with "comic book" content, just not with actual comic books. they are more illustrated chapter books or illustrated kids books, which is a different animal than learning to decipher visual storytelling that is part and parcel of comic books themselves. -M Just because picture books with superheroes exist doesn't mean a child wouldn't want to have a comic too. How are they going to develop a want for something they don't know exists and have no clue what to do with? When I was a kid I wanted comics because I was familiar with them through reading adventure and humor strips with my dad from the Sunday papers. I read comic books at the barber shop while I dad was getting a haircut (usually Kubert Tarzan though I only knew Tarzan not Kubert then) before I had comics of my own, and read comic strips contained in magazines like Highlights in the waiting room of the doctor's office all before I ever saw a spinner rack or had an actual comic bought for me. I didn't develop a want for comics until I had experienced comics. I wanted more picture books as I had those, I wanted more View Master reels featuring super-heroes because I had those, and knew what to do with them, but I never wanted comics until I experienced comics. Before kids can want comics they have to experience comics and learn how to read comics or follow the visual story being told. Nothing in picture books, cartoons, or anything else provides that experience except comics themselves, but where are kids going to experience comics first? Where is anyone who hasn't already experienced comics going to experience them and develop the love of them and the desire for more comics? Movies and TV shows haven't done it in the 20 years of the age of the big budget super-hero on the screen. Why would an illustrated prose book do it? -M
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 13:21:59 GMT -5
To follow up on my poor memory, the dinosaur series David Pedersen recommended was Bone Sharps, Cowboys, and Thunder Lizards by Jim Ottavani (whose Dignifying Science and Two-Fisted Science I am well familiar with and adore). -M
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 23, 2017 13:56:53 GMT -5
To follow up on my poor memory, the dinosaur series David Pedersen recommended was Bone Sharps, Cowboys, and Thunder Lizards by Jim Ottavani (whose Dignifying Science and Two-Fisted Science I am well familiar with and adore). -M I think I may need to pick this up
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 23, 2017 14:29:20 GMT -5
To follow up on my poor memory, the dinosaur series David Pedersen recommended was Bone Sharps, Cowboys, and Thunder Lizards by Jim Ottavani (whose Dignifying Science and Two-Fisted Science I am well familiar with and adore). -M I think I may need to pick this up Yeah, me too. Cei-U! I summon the "Wow!"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2017 15:16:41 GMT -5
To follow up on my poor memory, the dinosaur series David Pedersen recommended was Bone Sharps, Cowboys, and Thunder Lizards by Jim Ottavani (whose Dignifying Science and Two-Fisted Science I am well familiar with and adore). -M I think I may need to pick this up I think I may need to pick this up Yeah, me too. Cei-U! I summon the "Wow!" Seems Petersen has made a good choice. It's one of the things Ia m keeping an eye out for at Champion City this weekend, and if I don't find it will likely order next time I place an Amazon order. -M
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Post by drewbie on Nov 2, 2017 7:45:14 GMT -5
How are they going to develop a want for something they don't know exists and have no clue what to do with? This is exactly why licensing properties is so important - it provides a link between something a kid does want, like Paw Patrol, with something new, like comics. My oldest daughter loves the How to Train Your Dragon movies/cartoons, and will ask for any product she sees with a Dragon on it. That includes things she knows, like plastic toys and picture books, and extends to things she has no other experience with, like trading cards and chapter books. As to how they know it exists - they have to be advertised and available outside the DM. Bookstores still rack single issues, and some action figures have had comics packaged with them. A lower price point will increase the likelyhood of a parent buying one on impulse. You seem to be arguing that children will not want or care about comics. Do you think the 10&U demographic is lost to the comic industry?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 10:16:12 GMT -5
How are they going to develop a want for something they don't know exists and have no clue what to do with? This is exactly why licensing properties is so important - it provides a link between something a kid does want, like Paw Patrol, with something new, like comics. My oldest daughter loves the How to Train Your Dragon movies/cartoons, and will ask for any product she sees with a Dragon on it. That includes things she knows, like plastic toys and picture books, and extends to things she has no other experience with, like trading cards and chapter books. As to how they know it exists - they have to be advertised and available outside the DM. Bookstores still rack single issues, and some action figures have had comics packaged with them. A lower price point will increase the likelyhood of a parent buying one on impulse. You seem to be arguing that children will not want or care about comics. Do you think the 10&U demographic is lost to the comic industry? That's the thing, we have already lost 2 possibly 3 generations of potential new readers since the direct market rose to ascendancy and the newsstands disappeared. Comics could only be discovered by those going to specialty destination shops (and bookstores are that too, though not as niche as a comic shop). We can see the effect of this already in circulation numbers where currently only the top 2-3 books break 100k is sales (for perspective, X-Men was selling about 150K when it was demoted to a bi-monthly reprint book in the early 70s and Power Man and Iron Fist had sales of about 108K in the last statement of ownership when it was a bi-monthly book that cancelled in the 80s). That's 2-3 generations of not repopulating the reader base. Worse though is that's 2-3 generations of parents not introducing their kids to comics either, and not passing on the basics of comic literacy to those kids, so the effects will last more than those generations themselves. It makes the task of introducing new younger readers to comics even more difficult, as cognitive studies and educational research shows that children develop their reading proclivities, aptitudes, and interests before they enter kindergarten and the primary source of those factors is the parents. Parents who read to pre-schoolers and have their kids interact with books even before the kids can read enculturate literacy and reading skills, building foundation schools can build on and allowing those children to develop the literacy skills faster, and with higher aptitudes. Children learn by watching what parents do. If parents don't interact with comics, have an interest in comics, etc. kids aren't likely to develop it. It was a little different when comics were ubiquitous. Where kids could be introduced to comics at friends' houses, at the local barbershop, at drug stores, newsstands, in the Sunday papers, etc. etc. Comics were everywhere and many people interacted with them on some level or other, so the enculturation of comics literacy could come from many different sources. Such is not the case today. Nothing loses a child's interest quicker than frustration. Even if they somehow discover comics these days, if they lack comic literacy, interacting with them will be a frustrating experience and not one that will likely engender a love of comics. So if I get a licensed Paw Patrol comic (shout out to Nate Lovett who I saw this weekend who works on the property and does a hell of a job) but I lack the fundamental skills to have a pleasant reading experience with it, what's the chance I will look for more comics when there are other options I do get a pleasant experience from? Comics literacy is not the same as regular literacy. It's not just reading the text, it's understanding what all the visual cues (from caption boxes to dialogue balloons, to panel borders to panel order, to breaking panel borders, to what order to move from panel to panel, to understanding visual scene switches, etc. etc. etc.) that are part and parcel of reading comics and not prose. They are often not intuitive or instinctual and depend on previous experiences, which most children (and most people in the lost 2-3 generations of readers) lack. Give someone who is not comics literate a manga collection and an American comics to read. There are different comics literacies required for each. Front to back, back to front, left to right, right to left, different kinds of transitions, different visual storytelling techniques, etc. all making each a different and unique reading experience and different form prose so normal literacy skills are often not enough to decode the comics in a way that makes it a pleasant experience for a new reader. If the experience is unpleasant or frustrating, all the work done to get them to find a comic is wasted, because they won't come back, especially not in a world where there are so many other options available and so many of those available at their fingertips with a push of a button. So yes, I think the current 10-up generation of readers is lost to comics if comics continue to do things the way they always have. The big 2 and the direct market are operating as if it is still the late 20th century, and we are almost 2 decades of technological and market changes from that. And those changes have reshaped the entertainment industry and changed consumer expectations. Comics have to adapt or die. I think future generations of readers will also be lost unless significant and substantial changes are made, especially since the current consumer base will continue to shrink through attrition (loss of interest is the more pleasant attrition cause, but mortality is the other). I have said it before, and will say it again. It is not a case of if you build it, they will come. That's not happening. You have to go out and get them, and you have to have an outreach program that provides them with a way to gain the skills necessary for comics to be a non-frustrating experience. Even if they might be interested in the subject matter of the comics they happen to discover, the actual interaction with them needs to be a positive experience to engender the interest in more comics and eventually the love of comics that will make them regular readers of the medium. Our generation assumes a lot of those comic literacies are in place. They are not. We assume anyone exposed to comics will love them like we did, but the circumstances are different now, the factors which allowed us to develop the love of comics are gone and a new set of circumstances are in place because time has passed and the world has changed. What worked when we were kids isn't going to work now because too many factors are different, and unless you can regress all those market and technological factors (and you can't), new solutions that work in current circumstances have to be developed. Finding a way to get comics in the hands of potential readers is only the smallest of first steps. That's why it is so important to find the right comics to be people's first experiences when you recommend comics to others. Giving them something that will be an unpleasant or frustrating experience for them (remember they don't have your likes, tastes, and experiences or your foundational knowledge of comics and comics literacy) is going to turn them off comics, not turn them on to it. It's important to know the audience and not assume they are a mirror image of yourself. -M
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