shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 12, 2016 8:38:57 GMT -5
Does DC include stuff like Vertigo or are we talking the main "brand" of just DC? For me atleast it makes a huge difference. It does. All aspects of the both companies' legacies.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 12, 2016 9:48:52 GMT -5
The point of this is quite the opposite of choosing an allegiance and clinging to it like a "grade schooler." It's to critically evaluate the output of both companies as a whole, putting aside personal preferences and attempting to be objective. A nearly insurmountable task (Intentionally so) designed to provoke good discussion. I don't want to and you can't make me! Cei-U! I summon the intransigence!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 12, 2016 10:44:48 GMT -5
Continuous numbering is a weird conceit that is almost unique in publishing to comic books. Yes it is! Another reason I like it! It is unique! Like exclamation points at the end of every sentence!
Seriously I do think it is cool because it is unique. Part of my irritation is the reason - always looking at short term sales instead of the longer term view.
I agree! Part of the charm of American comic-book series, when I became aware of them, was the feeling of continuous history and storyline that was made so clear by an uninterrupted numbering! Perry Rhodan is now at issue 2875. I love that!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 12, 2016 10:59:00 GMT -5
Yes it is! Another reason I like it! It is unique! Like exclamation points at the end of every sentence!
Seriously I do think it is cool because it is unique. Part of my irritation is the reason - always looking at short term sales instead of the longer term view.
I agree! Part of the charm of American comic-book series, when I became aware of them, was the feeling of continuous history and storyline that was made so clear by an uninterrupted numbering! Perry Rhodan is now at issue 2875. I love that! I remember, as a kid, beginning with Batman #437 and naively thinking their were 436 previous issues of consistency and continuity, all building up to that very story. What a glorious fantasy. Honestly, I just hate trying to keep volumes straight. "Hey, I've got Green Lantern. #2." "Which?" "Ummm...Hal Jordan Green Lantern." "Which?" "Ummm...modern age." "Which?" "Ummm...Geoff Johns." "Oh. Which?"
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 12, 2016 11:05:52 GMT -5
I agree! Part of the charm of American comic-book series, when I became aware of them, was the feeling of continuous history and storyline that was made so clear by an uninterrupted numbering! Perry Rhodan is now at issue 2875. I love that! I remember, as a kid, beginning with Batman #437 and naively thinking their were 436 previous issues of consistency and continuity, all building up to that very story. What a glorious fantasy. Honestly, I just hate trying to keep volumes straight. "Hey, I've got Green Lantern. #2." "Which?" "Ummm...Hal Jordan Green Lantern." "Which?" "Ummm...modern age." "Which?" "Ummm...Geoff Johns." "Oh...was there more than one of those?" Many old titles had a wonky numbering, that's true; I was shocked when I learned there was no actual "Master of Kung-Fu" #1 in the '70s! Still, better a spotted continuous run than the mess successive renumberings have given us today, as you describe so well! (Heck, there's even an entire volume of Thor that went under my radar).
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 12, 2016 11:18:38 GMT -5
Yes it is! Another reason I like it! It is unique! Like exclamation points at the end of every sentence!
Seriously I do think it is cool because it is unique. Part of my irritation is the reason - always looking at short term sales instead of the longer term view.
I agree! Part of the charm of American comic-book series, when I became aware of them, was the feeling of continuous history and storyline that was made so clear by an uninterrupted numbering! Perry Rhodan is now at issue 2875. I love that! Britain's long running war comic Commando is currently up to #4942. Beano is currently at around #3850, I believe.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 12, 2016 11:25:57 GMT -5
I agree! Part of the charm of American comic-book series, when I became aware of them, was the feeling of continuous history and storyline that was made so clear by an uninterrupted numbering! Perry Rhodan is now at issue 2875. I love that! I remember, as a kid, beginning with Batman #437 and naively thinking their were 436 previous issues of consistency and continuity, all building up to that very story. What a glorious fantasy. Good luck to anyone looking for Hulk #7-101...
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Post by Pól Rua on Aug 12, 2016 12:23:46 GMT -5
DC wins this hands down.
40's: COMICS: DC creates the superhero, the superhero team and the three most iconic superhero characters (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman) to Marvel's One (Captain America). Marvel does, however, have a memorable story arc featuring battles between two of their heroes - The Human Torch and the Sub-Mariner. MEDIA: DC has multiple (mostly forgettable) film serials (Hop Harrigan, Congo Bill, The Vigilante, Batman), a successful radio series (Superman), and a series of amazingly good cartoon shorts (The Fleisher Superman series). Marvel has one largely forgettable serial featuring Captain America. CULTURE: Impact: Superman is a phenomenon. His radio serial helps bring down the KKK. His catchphrases are household words. Captain America hits the cultural zeitgeist, but is swarmed by a host of similarly patriotic heroes. OVERALL: DC.
50's: COMICS: Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman all continue publication. Marvel produces mostly forgettable work. MEDIA: DC has the hugely successful Superman TV series with George Reeves. CULTURE: Impact: "Look! Up In The Sky!"... yeah, Superman still rules. Marvel? Who even are they? OVERALL: DC.
60's: COMICS: DC launches the Silver Age with the reworked Flash. While inspired by DC's reworked Justice Society, the Fantastic Four from Marvel proves very successful. Spider-Man even moreso. Marvel's young, hep and grounded approach, the showmanship and jazzy presentation of Stan Lee and the unrivalled imaginations of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko really connect with existing comics readers and college aged kids. Marvel's more raw approach is seen as cool, DC is seen as corny, conventional and staid. MEDIA: A TV series and feature film based on Batman becomes a global phenomenon. There's a fairly successful Spider-Man cartoon. CULTURE: College aged kids are drawn to Marvel's characters and approach making comics cool again. On the other hand, Batmania. OVERALL: Marvel hits it straight out of the gate.
70's: COMICS: Both companies attempt to diversify. DC has some successes (Sergeant Rock, Jonah Hex, House of Mystery), but too much too fast leads to a catastrophic meltdown. Neal Adams becomes the first 'superstar' creator for DC. Marvel counters with Jim Steranko, P.Craig Russell, Barry Windsor Smith. Marvel's attempts at diversity are more successful, with titles like Man-Thing, Ghost Rider, Tomb of Dracula, Howard the Duck and Master of Kung Fu. Marvel scores two licensing coups in Conan the Barbarian and Star Wars. DC successfully lures Jack Kirby away from Marvel but fails to capitalize. A revitalized version of The Uncanny X-Men proves incredibly successful for Marvel. MEDIA: DC has a big success in 'Wonder Woman' with Lynda Carter, and the animated series 'The Super Friends', which is popular despite a heavy censorial burden. Marvel has a big success with 'The Incredible Hulk' with Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno. The 'Spider-Man' series by contrast is pretty awful. CULTURE: Marvel's cool factor continues with characters like Conan and the Silver Surfer. Wonder Woman is name-checked by Gloria Steinem and the Women's Lib Movement. Attempts by both companies to consciously tap into cultural movements are mostly done pretty ham-fistedly. OVERALL: A mixed bag, but Marvel definitely has the edge. DC is increasingly looking desperate for ideas, and trying to play catch-up or unsuccessfully attempting to ape Marvel's winning tactics.
80's: COMICS: Both companies settle into a kind of holding pattern, with Marvel somewhat ahead. DC has several substantial spikes in experimental titles like 'Dark Knight Returns', and Alan Moore's 'Swamp Thing' and 'Watchmen'. Wolfman & Perez' 'New Teen Titans' mimics the X-Men formula successfully with DC's teenage heroes, and the two creators go on to shake up the DC universe and transform it into something more resembling Marvel's universe in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths'. At Marvel, Archie Goodwin's 'Epic' imprint begins attempting to ape 'Heavy Metal' and ends up bringing manga (Akira), European comics (The works of Moebius), and independent US works (Elfquest) to a wider audience. It's hit-and-miss. John Byrne' having made his name on X-Men, has an extremely succesful run on 'Fantastic Four', until he is wooed away by DC to relaunch 'Superman'. MEDIA: DC pretty much rules this decade, opening with 1980's 'Superman: The Movie' and ending with 1989's 'Batman'. CULTURE: Suddenly comics are cool... but for the most part, the comics people are talking about are Indie titles like Cerebus, American Flagg, Love & Rockets, and not necessarily the mainstream monthlies being put out by the 'Big Two'. OVERALL: The differences between the two companies start to look increasingly cosmetic as both companies mainstream titles are increasingly settled into their respective holding patterns.
90's: COMICS: Flush from the 'Crisis', DC takes the lead, with superstar creators Byrne, Miller and Perez reworking Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman respectively. The success of Alan Moore on Swamp Thing and Watchmen leads DC editorial to the UK to recruit more British talent and eventually to the creation of the Vertigo imprint. By contrast, Marvel circles the wagons, and seems to be trying to rely on the proven success of their X-Men characters to lift them out of their slump. Both companies, fearing the rise of popular independents, artificially inflate demand for comics and create a speculator bubble with things like Variant Covers, and similar Gimmicks. An attempt to create a new batch of superstars backfires when the superstars leave Marvel and form Image. DC has a massive financial success with their (otherwise intellectually bankrupt) 'Death of Superman' event, while Marvel ACTUALLY goes bankrupt. MEDIA: Like the Superman films, the Batman films start to run out of steam after the first two installments. A short-lived Flash TV series is well-regarded but not terribly successful. An X-Men Animated Series by Fox Kids becomes widely popular. However, the big news is the Bruce Timm and Paul Dini's 'Batman: The Animated Series' which, drawing on the aesthetic of the old Fleisher Superman Cartoons, revitalizes tv animation in a big way and paves the way for a DC Animated Universe. CULTURE: Comics are big news, but it's chiefly an illusion, build around false ideas of economic speculation and collectability. Tonnes of unsold copies of 'Superman' #75 and 'X-Force' #1 languish in comic stores and landfills across the world. Everyone's looking for the NEW thing, and increasingly, that's NOT looking like the decades old properties being peddled by Marvel and DC. OVERALL: DC takes the lead again.
2000's: COMICS: Under Joe Quesada and Bill Jemas, Marvel attempted to crawl back from bankruptcy. They recruited a host of creators from indie titles, and released some more experimental stuff. Sometimes the experiments worked (X-Statix, Runaways) sometimes they didn't (Tsunami, Marville). DC, meanwhile, in trying to maintain its lead, started repeating its previous successful moves. Killing Superman sold lots of comics? Let's Cripple Batman! Green Lantern Goes Crazy! When these didn't work, they looked back to the start of their success, 'Crisis' and hit the history eraser button. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. The Vertigo Imprint, on the other hand, was having a lot of success. Titles like Sandman, Preacher, Hellblazer and Transmetropolitan were starting to draw in the sort of crowd that normally read those indie titles that were so encroaching on DC's and Marvel's Market Share. But that didn't stop it from happening. Companies like Dark Horse and Image were beginning to seriously threaten the previously unassailable two-company system. MEDIA: Marvel finally got out of the gates with Spider-Man and X-Men films which people liked... unfortunately, as with DC's efforts in prior decades, both did really well in their first two installments and then kind of lost their way. An attempt to relaunch Superman by relentlessly aping the earlier films failed to engage audiences, however, oddly enough, a TV series reimagining the character as a high school soap opera managed to do quite well. A gritty reworking of Batman's origin, however, was a major success. Meanwhile, the DCAU kept merrily trundling along, with a Superman series, two Justice League series and a second, more futuristic version of Batman. CULTURE: Despite successfully engaging mainstream audiences, successful movies and tv series didn't translate into comics sales. The comics market was widening and diversifying, and in response, both Marvel and DC began increasingly to focus on retaining existing readers rather than acquiring new ones. OVERALL: DC's maybe a hair ahead at this stage, but it's probably more due to Vertigo than its increasingly stale DC Universe stuff.
2010's: COMICS: In seeking to gain new audiences, Marvel began pushing outward to try and gain new readers, adopting a similar approach to that used by the Quesada/Jemas team (indie creators, diverse titles). Meanwhile, DC tightened their circle and doubled down on the things which had succeeded before - periodic reboots, and an increased focus on continuity and edgy, 'mature' storytelling. To this end, spin-offs of Watchmen and Dark Knight were both solicited. MEDIA: DC had a major success with 'The Dark Knight', the follow-up to 'Batman Begins', but Marvel overwhelmed them with a Cinematic Universe, a series of solo films featuring Iron Man, Thor, Captain America and the Hulk and designed to build to The Avengers, and then roll on into a second, and third phase after that. Attempts by DC to license non-superhero films were largely unsuccessful 'Red', 'The Losers', 'Jonah Hex', and their attempts to build a DC Cinematic Universe have been met with a mixed response. They are, however, having some success with the fusion of superhero action and teen-soap, applying the 'Smallville' model to Green Arrow, the Flash, Supergirl and others. CULTURE: The Marvel Cinematic Universe has turned masses of the mainstream audience into comic book fans, though whether the companies can convert that into comics SALES is another matter. One big concern is whether this current superhero fascination is another bubble, like the speculator bubble of the 90's... and if so, when will it burst? OVERALL: The MCU had allowed Marvel to take the lead... but to what end?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 13:16:01 GMT -5
Pól Rua: Great Analysis here and I'm very impressed of how you laid it out by decades ... nicely done BTW!
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Post by MDG on Aug 12, 2016 15:41:53 GMT -5
Pól Rua: Great Analysis here and I'm very impressed of how you laid it out by decades ... nicely done BTW! I agree, though I'd have to give DC the edge for the 80s--while the X-men juggernaut continued to build, I don't see much else from Marvel after Miller leaves DD (except a lot of sales--you got me there. but creatively...) Also, while Marvel consolidated its fan base, with Vertigo, DC started making "comics for the cool kids." And, again, while they may have tarnished in the past 30 years, Watchmen and Dark Knight are still the high watermarks and general cultural touchstones. (and, hell, look at the recent fuss because Killing Joke was being adapted.) And while, ultimately, some of the more singular experiments of this time--Nathaniel Dusk, Helix, DC Challenge, lots more, etc.--didn't make much of a lasting change, they showed DC really trying to engage creators. This was also the time they first started to regularly credit artists and writers on the cover of the whole line, right? Plus the Batman movie....
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 12, 2016 18:06:46 GMT -5
This is tough.
From my limited experience (The 1970s is something I've barely dipped my toes into and anything further back remains almost totally uncharted territory), the 1980s is neck-and-neck in terms of sheer quality of comics - Marvel has Roger Stern's Spider-Man, Frank Miller's Daredevil, Simonson's Thor and Claremont's X-Men among others, while DC has the likes of Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, plus Saga of The Swamp Thing and the early days of the Vertigo imprint, though in terms of actual influence, as important as those Marvel books were I don't think any of them really matches Watchmen, TDK and Vertigo as far as their impact on comics in the years afterward. In other media DC very clearly has the edge - Batman and Superman make their big movie debuts and dwarf anything Marvel puts out. The X-Men animated series does pretty well for itself but not quite in the same league.
DC gets the edge for the 80s with respectable competition from Marvel.
The 1990s is a clear win for DC - while the Bat movies peter out fast, they have roaring success with Bruce Timm's animated series, plus Vertigo goes into full swing, bringing the likes of Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis and Grant Morrison into the big leagues. Mainstream DC does a roaring trade as well, particularly with Mark Waid's Kingdom Come. Marvel goes through something of a crisis and almost goes under. Good stuff comes out like Kurt Busiek's Avengers but it's not quite enough.
2000s - Marvel comes back in a big way with the launch of the Ultimate imprint which breathes new life into their mainstream comics, plus they start to take after DC's lead with more experimental stuff, plus they release the highly successful Spider-Man movies and, of course, there's the advent of the Marvel Cinematic Universe with Iron Man. DC start to putter out a little with their mainstream comics, though Vertigo is still going strong. DC's television and movie game is strong - the animation department puts out the Justice League, and Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy comes out.
Marvel wins, with DC putting in a strong fight everywhere except their main comics line.
2010s - Something of a mixed bag. Marvel has the inarguably clear edge in the film department with the roaring success of the MCU, while both companies are successful in Television to different degrees - Marvel's live action work is arguably more cerebral and the integration of the television and movie universe is admirable, but DC taps into a sense of undeniable fun and adventure in their TV shows even if the results are arguably shallower. Still, it's hard to argue that seeing Gorilla Grodd onscreen given the serious treatment isn't a total thrill.
Comics-wise, DC launches the New 52 which is polarizing and a mixed success, I personally rather enjoyed Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Wonder Woman and a number of other books but I still rank Marvel's output higher. The All-New All-Different and Rebirth events have been a similar mixed bag - I *love* a handful of ANAD Marvel books but there's a fair number I'm not impressed with, and I haven't loved anything from Rebirth.
Overall, probably a stronger showing from Marvel on a personal level, but I can't call that objective seeing as Rebirth has been a roaring success by all other accounts.
So yeah. I'd give the 80s & 90s to DC and 2000s & 2010s to Marvel.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 20:12:30 GMT -5
Pól Rua: Great Analysis here and I'm very impressed of how you laid it out by decades ... nicely done BTW! I agree, though I'd have to give DC the edge for the 80s--while the X-men juggernaut continued to build, I don't see much else from Marvel after Miller leaves DD (except a lot of sales--you got me there. but creatively...) Also, while Marvel consolidated its fan base, with Vertigo, DC started making "comics for the cool kids." And, again, while they may have tarnished in the past 30 years, Watchmen and Dark Knight are still the high watermarks and general cultural touchstones. (and, hell, look at the recent fuss because Killing Joke was being adapted.) And while, ultimately, some of the more singular experiments of this time--Nathaniel Dusk, Helix, DC Challenge, lots more, etc.--didn't make much of a lasting change, they showed DC really trying to engage creators. This was also the time they first started to regularly credit artists and writers on the cover of the whole line, right? Plus the Batman movie.... Frankly, I don't know anything about the 3rd paragraph ... And while, ultimately ... could you please clarify that for me so I can understand what you are saying here?
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Post by Pól Rua on Aug 12, 2016 22:14:22 GMT -5
(And while, ultimately, some of the more singular experiments of this time--Nathaniel Dusk, Helix, DC Challenge, lots more, etc.--didn't make much of a lasting change, they showed DC really trying to engage creators. This was also the time they first started to regularly credit artists and writers on the cover of the whole line, right?)
A bunch of stuff happened in the 1980's, and one of the big ones was the rise of Independent Comic Companies. Spurred on by the creation of the direct market, companies like Pacific, Eclipse, First, Comico, and others sprung up. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was an unexpectedly MASSIVE hit and suddenly there were all these comics around that WEREN'T published by Marvel or DC. The Rocketeer, Concrete, Grimjack, Sabre, American Flagg, Mister X, Love and Rockets, Cerebus the Aardvark, Groo the Wanderer, Elfquest, Nexus, and so many more. Many of these series were new, fresh and different and appealed to readers who were sick of the same old characters and stories, or were looking for something new. Marvel & DC could both see their existing characters and titles losing ground, and so both companies attempted to extend their reach beyond 'more comics featuring Batman & Wolverine', and this led to a bunch of innovation from the 'Big 2' as they attempted to appeal to more varied tastes.
Archie Goodwin at Marvel spearheaded their Epic Comics line with a Heavy Metal Magazine lookalike called 'Epic Illustrated', but also included work like 'Stray Toasters', 'The Bozz Chronicles', 'The One', 'Alien Legion', as well as licensing the rights to indie series 'Groo the Wanderer' and 'Elfquest' and securing the rights to do English Language translations of series from Japan ('Akira'), France ('The Incal' and 'Airtight Garage') and Argentina ('The Eternaut'). In an addition, attempts were made to give their existing characters a more 'indie edge' with Stan Lee and Moebius collaborating on a Silver Surfer story for 'Epic Illustrated' and Frank Miller's work on stuff like 'Daredevil' and 'Elektra: Assassin'.
At DC, much the same thing was happening, with Alan Moore, Steve Bissette and John Totleben revitalizing 'Swamp Thing', Grant Morrison on 'Animal Man' and 'The Doom Patrol', Howard Chaykin's 'Blackhawk', Denny O'Neill and Denys Cowan on 'The Question', Mike Grell's 'The Longbow Hunters' with Green Arrow, projects like 'Watchmen', 'The Dark Knight Returns', 'Ronin' and 'Batman Year One' given the go-ahead. They published a bunch of non-superhero work like Nathanial Dusk, Cinder and Ashe, Thriller, Underworld, Camelot 3000, Warlord, Arak - son of Thunder, Arion - Prince of Atlantis, Night Force, Amethyst - Princess of Gemworld, Skreemer and Wasteland, and weird experiments like DC Challenge, 'Mazing Man and Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew.
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Post by MDG on Aug 13, 2016 7:29:11 GMT -5
I'd add that at DC, there were minis like Nathaniel Dusk, Tailgunner Jo, Spanner's Galaxy, others I can't remember right now (what was that Gulacy thing about the aliens reforming Earth?) that weren't part of the DC universe and never would be part of the DC universe. I don't think many of these were very successful commercially or gained DC many new readers, but I didn't see Marvel making similar efforts to grow the market (rather than just trying to grow their share of the market).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2016 14:39:11 GMT -5
I'd add that at DC, there were minis like Nathaniel Dusk, Tailgunner Jo, Spanner's Galaxy, others I can't remember right now (what was that Gulacy thing about the aliens reforming Earth?) that weren't part of the DC universe and never would be part of the DC universe. I don't think many of these were very successful commercially or gained DC many new readers, but I didn't see Marvel making similar efforts to grow the market (rather than just trying to grow their share of the market). If it had been created, those things would have probably been done under the Vertigo banner not regular DC. Marvel was doing some of that to a lesser extent, but was doing it under the Epic banner or with the Marvel Graphic Novel line-things like Starstruck, Timespirits, Six from Sirius, Void Indigo, Heartburst etc. were in that same kind of vein, not part of the Marvel U, but expanding the marketplace into other genres and creator owned type stuff. You can argue whether they would have sold better with the "pure" Marvel brand behind it rather than the Epic brand, but the DC brand didn't do much to help sales on the stuff they published. I agree DC was pushing the envelope with stuff at this time, but Marvel was producing putting out similar stuff at the time too, just under the Epic banner. -M
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