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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 10:30:35 GMT -5
One thing I wonder though, honestly : out of the people who voted "leave", there seems to be three categories
- people against "scapegoat" eurocrats
- people who just wanted to express their dissatisfaction in general (most of the people who now regret their vote)
- people against imigration, be them xenophobes or economical "victims"
What else is there?
If you friends over here are as I suppose to be part of the former category, what were the actual issues you think this brexit will resolve, and what do you believe an "allmighty" brit government will be able to achive that the EU couldn't or didn't want to?
I'm genuinely interested.
I think I summed up why I believe the opposite and remained quite rational and specific about it, so I'd like to hear the other side, since all the rational people I'm hearing who support the "leave" seem to do so essentially ou of eu EU disstrust rather then offering any alternative yet, appart from a feel of despair in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2016 10:32:03 GMT -5
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 10:45:43 GMT -5
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 27, 2016 10:50:55 GMT -5
One thing I wonder though, honestly : out of the people who voted "leave", there seems to be three categories - people against "scapegoat" eurocrats - people who just wanted to express their dissatisfaction in general (most of the people who now regret their vote) - people against imigration, be them xenophobes or economical "victims" What else is there? I offer these : people who think that the EU model doesn't deliver on its promise and is little more than an unneeded additional level of regulation and management, and people who do not like the way the EU model seems to favour economy over every other aspect of society. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2016 10:50:58 GMT -5
You talk as if we in Britain are now powerless to stop these things. We are still a democracy and we still all have the vote. It's like those people I've seen on my Facebook newsfeed who point to things like EU Human Rights legislation, or 1 year statutory maternity pay and working time legislation, as if we'll suddenly loose all that. We still live in a democracy. We can still vote for different parties. If we want to protect those rights or influence anything else we dislike, we can do so with our votes. Not that that it's always that easy, I grant you, but at least now the dialogue will be between the British people and those that they have elected, rather than a bunch of Eurocrats. The UK is not headed back into the dark ages. Actually, the UK had a pretty good track record on things like human rights, worker's legislation and anti-discrimination laws in the post-World War II era. Certainly we've historically had a far better track record on that kind of thing than the likes of Hungary, Chzec Republic, Germany and many other EU countries, so why would we suddenly become a less progressive and more barbaric country now? That's nonsense to me. On the subject of farmers, British farmers get a lot of subsidies from the EU, but interestingly, farmers both large and small almost unanimously would prefer to loose those subsidies because what they've actually done is to push the price of everything else associated with farming up, be it agricultural machinery, labour, land prices etc. Not being a farmer myself, I was totally unaware of the level of resentment that most of those making a living in the industry felt towards the EU's subsidies, but I saw a couple of seperate reports on it on TV a few months back.  Where did I say "Britain is now powerless?" Do you really think that the tory or Blair governments of the past 30+ years have had the best interest of the people in mind? More then the europeans?! That is just a bizarre way of thinking IMHO. Just look at the second Irak war, amongst other matters... I didn't mean for it to sound as if I was seriously suggesting that you as saying "Britain is now powerless?" I just meant that it sounds a bit like that's what you're saying, and I then went on to mention how, actually, a number of people I'm friends with on Facebook have adopted that sort of tone. As for the Iraq War, I don't want to get dragged into a discussion about that because it's kind of a separate matter, but what I will say is that, although I think Tony Blair was a power-hungry maniac -- with his eye on the hall of fame and George W. Bush cooing into his ear -- I think that in his own misguided heart, he really did think that he had the UK's best interests at heart. As did most the rest of the Houses of Parliament, by the way -- let's not forget that the Tory's fully ratified the decision to invade Iraq. As someone who has worked closely with politics, it always strikes me as bizarre when people dimiss european officials as "bureaucrats". They still are elected or appointed by elected politicians. And what are most politicians but dignified PR people for actual bureaucrats who have technical knowledge on how things might work? What is this sudden moral superiority of elected politicians??? Hitler, Berlusconi or Oswald Mosley were elected, by the people. I don't see how that prevents a people from heading towards a dark age. True enough, but citing Berlusconi, Oswald Mosley or Hitler (Godwin's law?  ) is stacking the deck and that trio aren't exactly representative of politicians as a whole. To me, the process that we have in the UK of having power returned to the people every four or five years and then the people deciding who will safe guard and bear that power for the next four or five years, is much more democratic that the situation in Brussels, with regards to the UK. So, while it's true that elected politicians don't automatically have a moral superiority, they are inherently more democratic. And your second argument, really, that was a super low blow, comparing Hungary with UK, as if Hungary was representative of Europe. And as there's nothing like the present, UK vs Germany? seriously, you think that the UK is a more democratic place then Germany? No, not at all, I'm just saying that our record in the post-WW2 era on things like human rights, capital punishment, statutory maternity pay, working time legislation etc is not to shabby and often better overall than countries like Hungary, Germany and the Czech Republic. You said that the UK would be more barbaric in the EU then out... This is plainly insance to me. I said no such thing. I don't see any fundamental change on that score in or out of the EU. Our inclusivness is our best way to built a more tolerant society. I don't think Hungary is going to be less homophobic if OUT of the EU, as I don't think the UK is going to be more homophobic with Hungary IN the EU. Again, the main argument i started out with is "Peace" There's no way we're going to sustain it unless we become more and more "together" I don't honestly believe that being in or out of the EU has any bearing on whether a country is more or less tolerant. I think that's something that each society has to work out and work on itself. Your third argument is the most sensible one, an issue EU countries have long struggled with way before the UK joined. Then again, the rest of the farming world is facing similar problems. And small farming are well known to not be the most long sighted industry. Just think about the fishing quotas treaties : with the UK out, all of those will have to be renegotiated, with more exceptions to look "forward", which brings me to my second argument after "Peace" (which I would very much like you fellow CCF "leavers" discuss  ), which is "environement" : There is no discussion that the more politically united we are the more we stand a chance to preserve our environement, and that is a capital that belongs to all of us. Again, I don't see the EU as really being all that effective in dictating how the world treats the environment. The countries having the most detrimental effect to our planet are mostly outside of the EU. And I also question the effectiveness (and the moral implications, to be honest) of us here in the "west" lecturing emerging economies like India and China, or struggling third-world countries like Brazil, on how they should treat the environment, when we had decades -- centuries even! -- of doing as we damn well please. So if what this brexit really achieves is to let the british people take full control of their political decisions (as short sighted as it seems to me), what has the recent history of the british choices shown us that would lead us to believe they will take more inteligent decisions then when they stand bigger with a larger sum of people and inteligence (and grant you, stupidity as well...)? Ha! None at all! But we will be the captains of our own ship, for better or for worse, and I believe that has got to be a good thing. I'll just conclude this post with this : when you leave, that's the end of discussion  It is, but if that move to leave comes after years of trying to change things for the better -- something that simply hasn't happened for large numbers of the UK public -- then it really doesn't matter much. The EU weren't prepared to listen or acquiesce in any meaningful way to our demands, so for many people here, they left us with little choice. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 27, 2016 10:56:27 GMT -5
Diference is, we are not the United States, and we never wanted to be a United States of Europe. Totally different mindset. I don't know what you put behind that "we", but I'm sure the people who created and supported the EU did so to put war behind them, be it actual war, economical, sociological, cultural, no matter what the cost. Whatever the drawbacks, if it garanties my family and friends peace between the countries, sign me in. And moraly, as with France, after being the biggest colonialist power in the world for centuries, it strikes me as "odd" that hte UK wouldn't tkae its share of responsabilities with the state of the world, but that's probably more subjective and just me. The organisation Britain voted to join was te European Economic Community, a trading partnership, not the European Union. It had nothing to do with peacekeeping, and as far as I can see, neither does the EU. The UK has more than done its bit to maintain world peace over the years and no doubt it will continue to do so, but it doesn't need to be a part of the EU to do it. It has nothng to do with peacekeeping. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2016 10:57:41 GMT -5
What's your point? Hateful far-right, racist a***holes continue to act like far-right, racist a***holes, shocker! In other news, the sky is blue. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 11:01:15 GMT -5
Of course it does, the symbolic aspect is the most important one.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 11:04:40 GMT -5
What's your point? Hateful far-right, racist a***holes act continue to act like far-right, racist a***holes, shocker! In other news, the sky is blue. The point of the article and reporting on what competant observers have noticed is a troubling incease in those behaviors since the vote, as it gave those people legitimity, or so they think. That's one of the very predictable side effects. Some people might have voted "leave" because they don't trust the EU, some because they're racists, in the end they both "helped" each other. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2016 11:17:45 GMT -5
What's your point? Hateful far-right, racist a***holes act continue to act like far-right, racist a***holes, shocker! In other news, the sky is blue. The point of the article and reporting on what competant observers have noticed is a troubling incease in those behaviors since the vote, as it gave those people legitimity, or so they think. That's one of the very predictable side effects. Racist idiots are racist idiots. ...and also a tiny minority. That news story is a total non-story. It's figures are vague ("over a hundred incidents", well, how many's that? 100,000 or 101?) I'm gonna assume that it's only just over 100 or the Independent would've put 150 or 200, so that's 25 reported instances of racial abuse a day...that's hardly a "wave of hate crime and racial abuse", as the article claims. In other news, millions of people from ethnic backgrounds have a perfectly nice few days and didn't get any abuse. Like I say, it's just one of those stories. If those 100 instances of racial abuse had occurred three weeks ago, nobody would've reported it. People are just looking for this stuff now and so are the media because it makes a good headline. Some people might have voted "leave" because they don't trust the EU, some because they're racists, in the end they both "helped" each other. That's a very bizarre way of looking at it, Arthur. As if the tiny, tiny minority of proper right-wing nutjob bigots should somehow dictate the country's political direction. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2016 11:23:32 GMT -5
The organisation Britain voted to join was te European Economic Community, a trading partnership, not the European Union. This is a very, VERY important distinction to make and one that a lot of people seem to misunderstand. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 11:25:58 GMT -5
And your second argument, really, that was a super low blow, comparing Hungary with UK, as if Hungary was representative of Europe. And as there's nothing like the present, UK vs Germany? seriously, you think that the UK is a more democratic place then Germany? No, not at all, I'm just saying that our record in the post-WW2 era on things like human rights, capital punishment, statutory maternity pay, working time legislation etc is not to shabby and often better overall than countries like Hungary, Germany and the Czech Republic. You said that the UK would be more barbaric in the EU then out... This is plainly insance to me. I said no such thing. I don't see any fundamental change on that score in or out of the EU. Our inclusivness is our best way to built a more tolerant society. I don't think Hungary is going to be less homophobic if OUT of the EU, as I don't think the UK is going to be more homophobic with Hungary IN the EU. Again, the main argument i started out with is "Peace" There's no way we're going to sustain it unless we become more and more "together" I don't honestly believe that being in or out of the EU has any bearing on whether a country is more or less tolerant. I think that's something that each society has to work out and work on itself. Your third argument is the most sensible one, an issue EU countries have long struggled with way before the UK joined. Then again, the rest of the farming world is facing similar problems. And small farming are well known to not be the most long sighted industry. Just think about the fishing quotas treaties : with the UK out, all of those will have to be renegotiated, with more exceptions to look "forward", which brings me to my second argument after "Peace" (which I would very much like you fellow CCF "leavers" discuss ), which is "environement" : There is no discussion that the more politically united we are the more we stand a chance to preserve our environement, and that is a capital that belongs to all of us. Again, I don't see the EU as really being all that effective in dictating how the world treats the environment. The countries having the most detrimental effect to our planet are mostly outside of the EU. And I also question the effectiveness (and the moral implications, to be honest) of us here in the "west" lecturing emerging economies like India and China, or struggling third-world countries like Brazil, on how they should treat the environment, when we had decades -- centuries even! -- of doing as we damn well please. So if what this brexit really achieves is to let the british people take full control of their political decisions (as short sighted as it seems to me), what has the recent history of the british choices shown us that would lead us to believe they will take more inteligent decisions then when they stand bigger with a larger sum of people and inteligence (and grant you, stupidity as well...)? Ha! None at all! But we will be the captains of our own ship, for better or for worse, and I believe that has got to be a good thing. I'll just conclude this post with this : when you leave, that's the end of discussion It is, but if that move to leave comes after years of trying to change things for the better -- something that simply hasn't happened for large numbers of the UK public -- then it really doesn't matter much. The EU weren't prepared to listen or acquiesce in any meaningful way to our demands, so for many people here, they left us with little choice. I still don't see what Germany post war has to do with this, and hungary or Czech certainly started less wars then the UK during that time, but alright... we just disagree on that. The barbaric thing, you wrote that some EU countries where historically more barbaric then the UK and that the proximity would make it more barbaric, your words. But I welcome the precision. "I don't honestly believe that being in or out of the EU has any bearing on whether a country is more or less tolerant. I think that's something that each society has to work out and work on itself." But that's exactly the point : when Hungary is part of EU, it becomes part of our society and has to adapt to it. Why do you think Turkey isn't yet part of the EU?! If one country struggles on those social issues, the community of the others surely helps! "Ha! None at all! But we will be the captains of our own ship, for better or for worse, and I believe that has got to be a good thing." But it's not a good thing.. Or even a bad one for hte matter : it's the exact same situation with politicians and bureayucrats in charge, just probably a little less effective on global matters. "It is, but if that move to leave comes after years of trying to change things for the better -- something that simply hasn't happened for large numbers of the UK public -- then it really doesn't matter much. The EU weren't prepared to listen or acquiesce in any meaningful way to our demands, so for many people here, they left us with little choice." But it has!!! You've lived in a european war free world for many decades now, with the exception of the yougoslavian civil war, one that in 1914, because of the lack of union resulted in millions of deaths! Also on the environement, you're talking about CHina and Brazil, but let's just focus on Europe, where huge progress has mostly resulted from european directives. But even if you were right, what would those "demands" you state were denied be? What are those key factors that if hte UK had it its way would have made the difference? I genuinely want to know since this would obviously what I'm less iinformed off (unless you refer to the recent Cameron discussions?) Sorry for the akward quoting, hasn't yet mastered how you break it down like you did |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 11:33:39 GMT -5
The organisation Britain voted to join was te European Economic Community, a trading partnership, not the European Union. This is a very, VERY important distinction to make and one that a lot of people seem to misunderstand. That is absurd : when the UK joined, the EU had already elvolved many many times, they perfectly knew it was the aim of the organisation. It started out as the European Community of Steel and Coal. What you say is like if Germany suddenly decided to quit an ideal because it's not solely about coal and steel. The UK itself evolved many many times before it became lead by the current english parlementary monarchy. I'm not sure the welsh, scotts or irish ever really had anything to say about this... |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2016 11:45:33 GMT -5
No, not at all, I'm just saying that our record in the post-WW2 era on things like human rights, capital punishment, statutory maternity pay, working time legislation etc is not to shabby and often better overall than countries like Hungary, Germany and the Czech Republic. I said no such thing. I don't see any fundamental change on that score in or out of the EU. I don't honestly believe that being in or out of the EU has any bearing on whether a country is more or less tolerant. I think that's something that each society has to work out and work on itself. Again, I don't see the EU as really being all that effective in dictating how the world treats the environment. The countries having the most detrimental effect to our planet are mostly outside of the EU. And I also question the effectiveness (and the moral implications, to be honest) of us here in the "west" lecturing emerging economies like India and China, or struggling third-world countries like Brazil, on how they should treat the environment, when we had decades -- centuries even! -- of doing as we damn well please. Ha! None at all! But we will be the captains of our own ship, for better or for worse, and I believe that has got to be a good thing. It is, but if that move to leave comes after years of trying to change things for the better -- something that simply hasn't happened for large numbers of the UK public -- then it really doesn't matter much. The EU weren't prepared to listen or acquiesce in any meaningful way to our demands, so for many people here, they left us with little choice. I still don't see what Germany post war has to do with this, and hungary or Czech certainly started less wars then the UK during that time, but alright... we just disagree on that. I'm just saying, in a somewhat clumsy way perhaps, that I don't understand those who seem to suggest that we will loose our human rights or anti-discrimination legislation, because, actually, our track record on those things was pretty good before the EU. But it's not a good thing.. Or even a bad one for hte matter : it's the exact same situation with politicians and bureayucrats in charge, just probably a little less effective on global matters. Of course it's not. It will be a big change, from an end to the huge amounts that the UK pays into to the EU to prop up other countries to not having to be subject to EU laws and legislation. On the latter point, as I said earlier there are nor no official figures for this, but it's estimated as somewhere between 20% and 70%, depending on which way you want to skew the statistics. But it has!!! You've lived in a european war free world for many decades now Which pretty much has nothing to do with the EU, as far as I can see. We also had 40 years of peace in Europe before the EU as we now know it came into existance in the '80s. The argument that the EU is responsible for 70 years of peace is simply not convincing to me, Arthur. Also on the environement, you're talking about CHina and Brazil, but let's just focus on Europe... Why? It's a much bigger problem than Europe. And as off 2016, the biggest threats to the global environment are located outside of the EU. Again, I don't see how the EU has really been all that effective in dictating how the world treats the environment. I know the whole "leading by example" argument, but I'm not convinced by it. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 11:46:47 GMT -5
The point of the article and reporting on what competant observers have noticed is a troubling incease in those behaviors since the vote, as it gave those people legitimity, or so they think. That's one of the very predictable side effects. Racist idiots are racist idiots. ...and also a tiny minority. That news story is a total non-story. It's figures are vague ("over a hundred incidents", well, how many's that? 100,000 or 101?) I'm gonna assume that it's only just over 100 or the Independent would've put 150 or 200, so that's 25 reported instances of racial abuse a day...that's hardly a "wave of hate crime and racial abuse", as the article claims. In other news, millions of people from ethnic backgrounds have a perfectly nice few days and didn't get any abuse. Like I say, it's just one of those stories. If those 100 instances of racial abuse had occurred three weeks ago, nobody would've reported it. People are just looking for this stuff now and so are the media because it makes a good headline. Some people might have voted "leave" because they don't trust the EU, some because they're racists, in the end they both "helped" each other. That's a very bizarre way of looking at it, Arthur. As if the tiny, tiny minority of proper right-wing nutjob bigots should somehow dictate the country's political direction. So you assume it's nothing out of the ordinary while the article does. It refers to organistations monitoring hate crime on a daily basis having noticed a troubling increase since the vote. You may decide you don't believe the article for a variety of reasons, but it was far more precise then you give it credit. You don't think this vote has given a sense of empowerment to hte racists? I do, it comon sens IMHO. I haven't said that right wing nutters dictate the country's political direction. I only said exactly what I said : that their agenda in this vote met the ones that other people who voted "leave" had, and that this was impossible to ignore. |
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Where did I say "Britain is now powerless?" Do you really think that the tory or Blair governments of the past 30+ years have had the best interest of the people in mind? More then the europeans?! That is just a bizarre way of thinking IMHO. Just look at the second Irak war, amongst other matters...
) is stacking the deck and that trio aren't exactly representative of politicians as a whole. To me, the process that we have in the UK of having power returned to the people every four or five years and then the people deciding who will safe guard and bear that power for the next four or five years, is much more democratic that the situation in Brussels, with regards to the UK. So, while it's true that elected politicians don't automatically have a moral superiority, they are inherently more democratic.
), which is "environement" : There is no discussion that the more politically united we are the more we stand a chance to preserve our environement, and that is a capital that belongs to all of us.
