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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 26, 2016 10:10:04 GMT -5
I voted to leave. Because unlike your generation (18-30) mine (38-50) has seen from the beginning how membership in the EU has adversely affected Britain, and how it was likely to continue to do so. Do you imagine that someone in their forties or fifties somehow has no future to be concerned about? Do you imagine that British farmers and fishermen whose livelihoods are endangered by ridiculous EU directives, or those on low incomes, or no incomes, competing in a dwindling job market with thousands of economic migrants from the EU are motivated solely by "nationalism"? I've heard a lot of this kind of stuff from the Remain supporters recently, sour grapes because the majority saw things differently and voted accordingly. And I can't help thinking their "overall picture" is missing a few pieces. Ting, I've respected your opinion on topics on multiple different occassions, so let's just agree to disagree here. I live in America and obviously I have very little understanding of how, when, or why this is even going to effect me, if at all. I think it has more to do with my own personal feelings of constantly having things so grossly out of my own reach or control because I had things "decided for me" by others who thought they knew better than I did And I'll be the first to admit that I have a very "let the world burn" level anarchistic approach to politics thats tempered with my own new-age flower child system of beliefs But this isn't a case of others deciding things for you because"they knew better than you", if say Parliament decided on its own to just up and leave against the will of the people I could understand your frustration but that's not what happened here as it was a fair and open election. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 26, 2016 10:13:47 GMT -5
I voted to leave. Because unlike your generation (18-30) mine (38-50) has seen from the beginning how membership in the EU has adversely affected Britain, and how it was likely to continue to do so. Do you imagine that someone in their forties or fifties somehow has no future to be concerned about? Do you imagine that British farmers and fishermen whose livelihoods are endangered by ridiculous EU directives, or those on low incomes, or no incomes, competing in a dwindling job market with thousands of economic migrants from the EU are motivated solely by "nationalism"? I've heard a lot of this kind of stuff from the Remain supporters recently, sour grapes because the majority saw things differently and voted accordingly. And I can't help thinking their "overall picture" is missing a few pieces. Ting, I've respected your opinion on topics on multiple different occassions, so let's just agree to disagree here. I live in America and obviously I have very little understanding of how, when, or why this is even going to effect me, if at all. I think it has more to do with my own personal feelings of constantly having things so grossly out of my own reach or control because I had things "decided for me" by others who thought they knew better than I did And I'll be the first to admit that I have a very "let the world burn" level anarchistic approach to politics thats tempered with my own new-age flower child system of beliefs It's not about anyone "deciding for" anyone else. Everyone eligible to vote in the UK had the opportunity to do so. Some chose not to, effectively denying themselves a voice. Of those that did vote, 52% voted to leave, so we have to leave. That's democracy. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 26, 2016 10:20:45 GMT -5
Ting, I've respected your opinion on topics on multiple different occassions, so let's just agree to disagree here. I live in America and obviously I have very little understanding of how, when, or why this is even going to effect me, if at all. I think it has more to do with my own personal feelings of constantly having things so grossly out of my own reach or control because I had things "decided for me" by others who thought they knew better than I did And I'll be the first to admit that I have a very "let the world burn" level anarchistic approach to politics thats tempered with my own new-age flower child system of beliefs It's not about anyone "deciding for" anyone else. Everyone eligible to vote in the UK had the opportunity to do so. Some chose not to, effectively denying themselves a voice. Of those that did vote, 52% voted to leave, so we have to leave. That's democracy. And also turnout was high. 72% or so, I believe, which may not sound much, but in terms of turnout for UK General Elections over the last 20 years it is pretty high. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 26, 2016 10:26:12 GMT -5
It's not about anyone "deciding for" anyone else. Everyone eligible to vote in the UK had the opportunity to do so. Some chose not to, effectively denying themselves a voice. Of those that did vote, 52% voted to leave, so we have to leave. That's democracy. And also turnout was high. 72% or so, I believe, which may not sound much, but in terms of turnout for UK General Elections over the last 20 years it is pretty high. It's actually pretty phenomenal given our usual collective general apathy about elections in this country. |
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 26, 2016 12:00:35 GMT -5
The online petition demanding a second referendum is being investigated after certain anomalies were noticed. Supposedly, more than three million Remain supporters had signed it in the last two days, but it was noticed that a significant number of them appeared to originate outside the UK. In fact, some 39, 000 of them allegedly originated in the Vatican...which has a population of just 800. At the last count, so far 77, 000 have been removed as fake...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 14:27:49 GMT -5
I was completely undecided right to the end - pro-Exit because of the democratic deficit and lack of accountability of the EU, and against further integration or enlargement / pro-EU due to some beneficial laws and single market. At the end of the day, I voted remain because I couldn't bring myself to vote with Farage and the right-wing media.
In general though, it was an appalling campaign - an utter lack of facts or useful information and masses of hyperbole and outright lies from both sides all the way through. Shameless populist nationalism and xenophobia from the Leave campaign and massive complacency, fear-mongering and outright incompetence from the Remain side.
The follow-up petitiion for a 2nd referendum is a farce - sour grapes from Remain voters who can't accept that they lost the vote that counted.
We are going to live in interesting times as a result - both in the UK and the remainder of the EU, For the UK, it's potentially a seismic shift in politics - a lurch to the right from the Tories, and completely misreading of their voter base by Labour towards UKIP, but UKIP's reason to exist eliminated by achieving their prime aim. For the EU, they've lost their 2nd largest economy and a major nett donor, and will spark nationlist exit motions in severa other countries - notably Netherlands, France, Hungary, Denmark and possibly Sweden, maybe others; they now have to either (a) hold a tough line and keep on as they were before - impacts their budget from loss of UK, and doesn't address anti-EU concerns; or (b) attempt to reform to address issues - but have shown themselves completely unable to reform previously.
Ultimately, I think this is another step to a break-up of the EU, which is probably a good thing. It has never made sense to me to try to run a mass of wildly divergent economies on common policies - the idea that the same rules work for Germany, Greece and Rumania, for example, is just ridiculous.
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 27, 2016 0:49:54 GMT -5
Ultimately, I think this is another step to a break-up of the EU, which is probably a good thing. It has never made sense to me to try to run a mass of wildly divergent economies on common policies - the idea that the same rules work for Germany, Greece and Rumania, for example, is just ridiculous. That has always been the huge flaw that nobody ever seemed willing to acknowledge. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 5:37:18 GMT -5
Sweden and France will never go out of the EU. Never. To think so shows a huge lack of understanding of both those countries. And I could safely add Germany, Belgium, Netherland, Danemark or Polland to the list.
But I think some of you guys occult many factors, one being such a big elephant in the room that it kind of saddens me : peace.
I strongly believe that our enjoying peace in the past 70 years or so is largely due to the EU building and existance. The EU is a major factor of peace in the world as well.A strong EU prevents Russia from becoming less democratic. I've been traveling to the UK almost every other month in the past 6 years, and quite often before that, mostly because I was booked there. That will come to a halt as I will now be too expensive. But that's alright as the EU is still a big market and will be able to adjust. It will also make that market nurture its own talent much more when there always was a tendency to favor brit artists who will now struggle a little to get bookings in the EU. Whether you're left wing or right wing, I don't see how being in favor of brexit isn't a nationalist move, and I really don't see what benefits there is to gain from it as taxes will automaticly increase, amongst other things. It also feels like Irland and Scotland were put in a hostage situation with this referundum, which shows it wasn't carefully concieved or planned.
The thing now is that we already see with the Cameron exit that it wil be up to the brexit camp to implement it. And rightly so as I don't see why ayone who sees this as a vast catastrophy would want to be in charge of implementing it. So we'll see if Boris, the brexit labor or farrage are able (wanting?) to take up that task. Cameron sure didn't.
In 2005, the french people voted "no" to the signing and abiding to the then newly crafted european constitution. The governement and most of the opposition decided to sign it nevertheless, as they felt it was in the best interest of the people. They just tried to fight a little to get a few things in or out of it. We didn't see the millions of promissed angry people in the streets. And I don't believe anyone would say the french people are shy from hitting the pavment!.
The EU will always struggle, but remember : it's an ideal, one of peace and freedom. Our old sovereign countries never were "ideals". War already knowked at our doors in the 90ies with the the non EU yougoslavia. What happened in Ukraine in the past couple of years is also a sign that a strong Europe is crucial, especially since war is currently taking several new forms (policy, economy, terrorism, health, crime....).
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 27, 2016 5:56:13 GMT -5
The benefit is that we will no longer be under the thumb of Eurocrats who do not have our best interests at heart, and never have. I'm in Suffolk, a county dominated by farmig and fishing, and almost 60% of it voted 'Leave'. The EU may have been good for big business, but not for my neighbours.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 6:09:16 GMT -5
Ting... you're talking business and I'm talking peace. But right, farming it is then : indy100.independent.co.uk/article/five-laws-the-european-union-helped-stop-the-tories-from-passing--ZygyRM8GAEZ"The UK government had attempted to block the EU from enacting legislation that would limit imports of tar sand oils from Canada, which are a greenhouse gas heavy method of making oil for transportation. Additionally, the British government tried (and failed) to block the EU pesticide ban, which protects bees. " ... Amongst other things. The question then is "do you really think that britocrats have your best interests at heart?" Probably sometimes, but not that often as history has shown us. Same goes with eurocrats. They might have more distance though, which in some case will be great and maybe less in some others. |
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Post by hondobrode on Jun 27, 2016 8:42:30 GMT -5
Obviously being American I don't know all the intricacies and politics involved, but, it seems to me that Arthur has a point.
I understand how Brits would resent being dictated to by Brussels, and the resentment of being a more powerful, and wealthy, country than most, therefore, giving up more than they receive from the EU.
I get that, but, ultimately, in the long run, it seems that collectively it's better for all.
Here in the states, a similar analogy would be if California were to become it's own country.
They could, yes, but they're better off with the rest of the US, and the US is better off having California in it's 50 states.
With the thousand year flooding here in West Virginia, they're getting federal tax dollars to help. Some of that comes from California. Does that directly help California ? No, but it helps the US as a whole.
West Virginia being one of the poorest states receives more funds than it pays into, I'm pretty sure. That happens in certain situations, but, we're all united and that's what gives us our strength IMO.
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 27, 2016 9:28:35 GMT -5
Obviously being American I don't know all the intricacies and politics involved, but, it seems to me that Arthur has a point. I understand how Brits would resent being dictated to by Brussels, and the resentment of being a more powerful, and wealthy, country than most, therefore, giving up more than they receive from the EU. I get that, but, ultimately, in the long run, it seems that collectively it's better for all. Here in the states, a similar analogy would be if California were to become it's own country. They could, yes, but they're better off with the rest of the US, and the US is better off having California in it's 50 states. With the thousand year flooding here in West Virginia, they're getting federal tax dollars to help. Some of that comes from California. Does that directly help California ? No, but it helps the US as a whole. West Virginia being one of the poorest states receives more funds than it pays into, I'm pretty sure. That happens in certain situations, but, we're all united and that's what gives us our strength IMO. Diference is, we are not the United States, and we never wanted to be a United States of Europe. Totally different mindset. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 27, 2016 9:50:10 GMT -5
Ting... you're talking business and I'm talking peace. But right, farming it is then : indy100.independent.co.uk/article/five-laws-the-european-union-helped-stop-the-tories-from-passing--ZygyRM8GAEZ"The UK government had attempted to block the EU from enacting legislation that would limit imports of tar sand oils from Canada, which are a greenhouse gas heavy method of making oil for transportation. Additionally, the British government tried (and failed) to block the EU pesticide ban, which protects bees. " ... Amongst other things. The question then is "do you really think that britocrats have your best interests at heart?" Probably sometimes, but not that often as history has shown us. Same goes with eurocrats. They might have more distance though, which in some case will be great and maybe less in some others. You talk as if we in Britain are now powerless to stop these things. We are still a democracy and we still all have the vote. It's like those people I've seen on my Facebook newsfeed who point to things like EU Human Rights legislation, or 1 year statutory maternity pay and working time legislation, as if we'll suddenly loose all that. We still live in a democracy. We can still vote for different parties. If we want to protect those rights or influence anything else we dislike, we can do so with our votes. Not that that it's always that easy, I grant you, but at least now the dialogue will be between the British people and those that they have elected, rather than a bunch of Eurocrats. The UK is not headed back into the dark ages. Actually, the UK had a pretty good track record on things like human rights, worker's legislation and anti-discrimination laws in the post-World War II era. Certainly we've historically had a far better track record on that kind of thing than the likes of Hungary, Chzec Republic, Germany and many other EU countries, so why would we suddenly become a less progressive and more barbaric country now? That's nonsense to me. On the subject of farmers, British farmers get a lot of subsidies from the EU, but interestingly, farmers both large and small almost unanimously would prefer to loose those subsidies because what they've actually done is to push the price of everything else associated with farming up, be it agricultural machinery, labour, land prices etc. Not being a farmer myself, I was totally unaware of the level of resentment that most of those making a living in the industry felt towards the EU's subsidies, but I saw a couple of seperate reports on it on TV a few months back. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 9:53:12 GMT -5
Obviously being American I don't know all the intricacies and politics involved, but, it seems to me that Arthur has a point. I understand how Brits would resent being dictated to by Brussels, and the resentment of being a more powerful, and wealthy, country than most, therefore, giving up more than they receive from the EU. I get that, but, ultimately, in the long run, it seems that collectively it's better for all. Here in the states, a similar analogy would be if California were to become it's own country. They could, yes, but they're better off with the rest of the US, and the US is better off having California in it's 50 states. With the thousand year flooding here in West Virginia, they're getting federal tax dollars to help. Some of that comes from California. Does that directly help California ? No, but it helps the US as a whole. West Virginia being one of the poorest states receives more funds than it pays into, I'm pretty sure. That happens in certain situations, but, we're all united and that's what gives us our strength IMO. Diference is, we are not the United States, and we never wanted to be a United States of Europe. Totally different mindset. I don't know what you put behind that "we", but I'm sure the people who created and supported the EU did so to put war behind them, be it actual war, economical, sociological, cultural, no matter what the cost. Whatever the drawbacks, if it garanties my family and friends peace between the countries, sign me in. And moraly, as with France, after being the biggest colonialist power in the world for centuries, it strikes me as "odd" that hte UK wouldn't tkae its share of responsabilities with the state of the world, but that's probably more subjective and just me. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 27, 2016 10:22:18 GMT -5
You talk as if we in Britain are now powerless to stop these things. We are still a democracy and we still all have the vote. It's like those people I've seen on my Facebook newsfeed who point to things like EU Human Rights legislation, or 1 year statutory maternity pay and working time legislation, as if we'll suddenly loose all that. We still live in a democracy. We can still vote for different parties. If we want to protect those rights or influence anything else we dislike, we can do so with our votes. Not that that it's always that easy, I grant you, but at least now the dialogue will be between the British people and those that they have elected, rather than a bunch of Eurocrats. The UK is not headed back into the dark ages. Actually, the UK had a pretty good track record on things like human rights, worker's legislation and anti-discrimination laws in the post-World War II era. Certainly we've historically had a far better track record on that kind of thing than the likes of Hungary, Chzec Republic, Germany and many other EU countries, so why would we suddenly become a less progressive and more barbaric country now? That's nonsense to me. On the subject of farmers, British farmers get a lot of subsidies from the EU, but interestingly, farmers both large and small almost unanimously would prefer to loose those subsidies because what they've actually done is to push the price of everything else associated with farming up, be it agricultural machinery, labour, land prices etc. Not being a farmer myself, I was totally unaware of the level of resentment that most of those making a living in the industry felt towards the EU's subsidies, but I saw a couple of seperate reports on it on TV a few months back.  Where did I say "Britain is now powerless?" Do you really think that the tory or Blair governments of the past 30+ years have had the best interest of the people in mind? More then the europeans?! That is just a bizarre way of thinking IMHO. Just look at the second Irak war, amongst other matters... As someone who has worked closely with politics, it always strikes me as bizarre when people dimiss european officials as "bureaucrats". They still are elected or appointed by elected politicians. And what are most politicians but dignified PR people for actual bureaucrats who have technical knowledge on how things might work? What is this sudden moral superiority of elected politicians??? Hitler, Berlusconi or Oswald Mosley were elected, by the people. I don't see how that prevents a people from heading towards a dark age. And your second argument, really, that was a super low blow, comparing Hungary with UK, as if Hungary was representative of Europe. And as there's nothing like the present, UK vs Germany? seriously, you think that the UK is a more democratic place then Germany? You said that the UK would be more barbaric in the EU then out... This is plainly insance to me. Our inclusivness is our best way to built a more tolerant society. I don't think Hungary is going to be less homophobic if OUT of the EU, as I don't think the UK is going to be more homophobic with Hungary IN the EU. Again, the main argument i started out with is "Peace" There's no way we're going to sustain it unless we become more and more "together" Your third argument is the most sensible one, an issue EU countries have long struggled with way before the UK joined. Then again, the rest of the farming world is facing similar problems. And small farming are well known to not be the most long sighted industry. Just think about the fishing quotas treaties : with the UK out, all of those will have to be renegotiated, with more exceptions to look "forward", which brings me to my second argument after "Peace" (which I would very much like you fellow CCF "leavers" discuss  ), which is "environement" : There is no discussion that the more politically united we are the more we stand a chance to preserve our environement, and that is a capital that belongs to all of us. So if what this brexit really achieves is to let the british people take full control of their political decisions (as short sighted as it seems to me), what has the recent history of the british choices shown us that would lead us to believe they will take more inteligent decisions then when they stand bigger with a larger sum of people and inteligence (and grant you, stupidity as well...)? I guess this is indeed bound to be a little of a heated discussion, but I'm glad to see it remains nothing more then a discussion So I'll just conclude this post with this : when you leave, that's the end of discussion  |
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Where did I say "Britain is now powerless?" Do you really think that the tory or Blair governments of the past 30+ years have had the best interest of the people in mind? More then the europeans?! That is just a bizarre way of thinking IMHO. Just look at the second Irak war, amongst other matters... 
), which is "environement" : There is no discussion that the more politically united we are the more we stand a chance to preserve our environement, and that is a capital that belongs to all of us.