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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 16:53:37 GMT -5
Question: what do people think is the likelihood that Scotland, in the not too distant future, will try to hold another vote about independence from the U.K.? It seems that, at least according to the Sunday Post (a newspaper that I know nothing about), 59% of Scots surveyed after the Brexit referendum are in favor of leaving.
So do you think another vote will happen at some point before long? I'm not saying next month anything but in the next couple of years?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 17:10:42 GMT -5
The Jocks want a referendum, but ultimately their parliament doesn't have the authority to call one or to secede from the Union - I think it is extremely unlikely that they can muster enough votes in parliament to achieve either. There will undoubtedly be a large groundswell of support for independence, but there's no obvious mechanism for that to be granted unless parliament agrees to it.
There have been a number of politicians who have tried to make a case for a 2nd referendum to accept or reject the terms of the divorce from the EC - ie Leave under these terms or Stay in after all.
Who knows what's going to happen - they Tories are now in hock to their right wing, with the (relatively) left end of their support appalled by what's happened; the Labour party are in total disarray with the leader just getting slaughtered in a vote of no confidence and with large swathes of their historic support defecting to UKIP; the Liberals barely exist any more.
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 28, 2016 17:14:52 GMT -5
Question: what do people think is the likelihood that Scotland, in the not too distant future, will try to hold another vote about independence from the U.K.? It seems that, at least according to the Sunday Post (a newspaper that I know nothing about), 59% of Scots surveyed after the Brexit referendum are in favor of leaving. So do you think another vote will happen at some point before long? I'm not saying next month anything but in the next couple of years? Undemocratic though it may be (given that they've only just voted to stay in) I think there's a strong possibility. However, I don't really care. I am increasingly seeing myself as English, not British, and if my paternal grandfather's people want to leave the UK, that's up to them as far as I'm concerned. At least the English will no longer be footing the bill for their NHS prescription charges.
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Post by hondobrode on Jun 28, 2016 18:13:53 GMT -5
From the outside looking in from across the pond, I'd bet that Scotland does secede from the UK.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202
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Post by Confessor on Jun 28, 2016 18:13:57 GMT -5
I've never heard it so glowingly described by anyone here in the states and in my travels in Europe the gossip and news I'd hear weren't that positive about the European Union either but that's just my experience as AGS' opinion shows there are obviously those who have a very positive view of the EU and I don't see any polls that would say which view is the more commonly held. The EEC was seen here as purely a trade partnership and the EU as a generally rather less desirable political union. I have never heard anyone, before now, describe it as some sort of symbol of hope or express the view that it was all about maintaining peace in our time. This has slightly astonished me. I would have to concur with the part above that I've bolded. From the outside looking in from across the pond, I'd bet that Scotland does secede from the UK. You might be right...I doubt it, but you might be. Like @simongarth says, I don't think the mechanism for another referendum really exists, unless it's granted by Westminster and, personally, I can't see them doing that anytime soon. I also believe that Scotland would up the creek without a paddle economically, if they broke away from the UK. ...the Liberals barely exist any more. So it's not all doom and gloom!
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Post by spoon on Jun 28, 2016 18:24:28 GMT -5
That occurred to me, too. Considerably more than the EU, in fact, which is not a peacekeeping organisation. Nato is a military organisation, a tool of the US defense department historicaly monitored by the CIA, one that was engineered to face the soviet nations. The EU is an organisation born with the hope of building longlasting peace between former enemies. It's an ideal, a symbol and an organisation, and of course it made war impossible between those countries anymore. So we disagree as I strongly believe that as all of those things, the EU has been a major source of peace throughout the world alonside the UN in the past 60+ years, while I believe that the NATO has at times been usefull and at others highly dangerous. No good deed goes unpunished. NATO was a treaty voluntarily entered into by multiple nations. A number of Western European nations entered into the Brussels Treaty. Because of fears that would be insufficient to dissuade the Eastern Bloc, Western European nations recruited the U.S. for a broader defense treaty. The U.S. on the whole has done a lot of good stuff. We don't exist to be despised by Europeans.
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Post by spoon on Jun 28, 2016 18:33:39 GMT -5
Now I'm proud of us!!! A whole page of significant opinions and info shared with respect and aknowledgment of where we all come from in this discussion Now alright, I really thought the US constitution formely forbid this kind of military aliances during peace time. Think it comes from the time I was studying constituational law, the french one, mind you. Now doing some research about it, I struggle to find where I got this from, but I found a german and a french site and wiki pages stating that as well. It might probably be inaccurate, but do you feellow US friends have any idea where that misconception might come from? You may be thinking of Washington's Farewell Address, in which he warned against permanent foreign alliances. However, that was just an opinion in a speech by an outgoing President. It didn't have the force of law. But I think the bigger misconception in your prior post is that somehow an act of Congress could trump the U.S. Constitution. That's contrary to one of the main principles of the Constitution - namely that it is the supreme law of the land.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 28, 2016 19:11:52 GMT -5
Hahah, you may be right, your constitution is so f****d up anyways. That a legislative text is hold as sacred scripture always sounded nutty to me I know I'm hyperboling, but when a text of law & rights constantly has to be interpreted, something has IMHO gone wrong. And I wasnt talking about the good or bad deeds of the US but the possible ones of NATO and CIA. Just one, thing, though : the idea that europeans recruited the US to form NATO is... somewhat at odds with history. But about the US though, I guess that some of us will never forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but that's another story...
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 28, 2016 20:17:07 GMT -5
Hahah, you may be right, your constitution is so fucked up anyways. That a legislative text is hold as sacred scripture always sounded nutty to me I know I'm hyperboling, but when a text of law & rights constantly has to be interpreted, something has IMHO gone wrong. And I wasnt talking about the good or bad deeds of the US but the possible ones of NATO and CIA. Just one, thing, though : the idea that europeans recruited the US to form NATO is... somewhat at odds with history. But about the US though, I guess that some of us will never forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but that's another story... You're welcome for D-Day. But maybe I'm hyperbolizing.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 28, 2016 22:38:33 GMT -5
Hey, sure, It's great that lots of countries got together (in the end...) to fight facism, and France is far far far from perfect in that matter (I still think that the fact that France didn't stand by its serbian allies at the dawn of WWI made it far worse then it should have been... thank god France at least sent Lafayette and his army to help the US fight the british, at least we don't have this on our conscience ). But I still don't see how that makes it alright for nations to use atom bombs on civilians. D-Day has nothing to do with Hiroshima or Nagasaki, unless you're hyperbolizing To summ up my philosophy about this, a good deed doesn't erase a bad one, I think and hope we can agree on this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2016 23:37:23 GMT -5
Hey, sure, It's great that lots of countries got together (in the end...) to fight facism, and France is far far far from perfect in that matter (I still think that the fact that France didn't stand by its serbian allies at the dawn of WWI made it far worse then it should have been... thank god France at least sent Lafayette and his army to help the US fight the british, at least we don't have this on our conscience ). But I still don't see how that makes it alright for nations to use atom bombs on civilians. D-Day has nothing to do with Hiroshima or Nagasaki, unless you're hyperbolizing To summ up my philosophy about this, a good deed doesn't erase a bad one, I think and hope we can agree on this. As sad as the loss of civilian life was in these horrific and tragic events, President Truman was faced with a tough choice. Japan itself was working on an atomic bomb, a main component of which was scheduled to be completed on August 19th, just a few weeks after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If completed, it would have been used on the U.S. Unfortunately, the war could have gone on much longer and killed many more Americans and Japanese. It was considered very dishonorable in Japanese culture to surrender (which is why American POWs were treated so poorly in their POW camps) and it would have dragged out much longer without a quick end. Truman's decision unquestionably saved the lives of many Allies. Unfortunately, civilians were killed by the two bombs. Again, horrific, but in the end they probably saved many more lives than the bombs took. That is why President Obama went to Hiroshima and met with survivors and spoke against the usage of nuclear weapons, but he did not in any way apologize for the U.S. or Harry Truman. I do agree with you that a good deed doesn't erase a bad one, but in this circumstance I think that the bombings, while tragic, were necessary.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on Jun 29, 2016 0:15:13 GMT -5
Hey, sure, It's great that lots of countries got together (in the end...) to fight facism, and France is far far far from perfect in that matter (I still think that the fact that France didn't stand by its serbian allies at the dawn of WWI made it far worse then it should have been... thank god France at least sent Lafayette and his army to help the US fight the british, at least we don't have this on our conscience ). But I still don't see how that makes it alright for nations to use atom bombs on civilians. D-Day has nothing to do with Hiroshima or Nagasaki, unless you're hyperbolizing To summ up my philosophy about this, a good deed doesn't erase a bad one, I think and hope we can agree on this. As sad as the loss of civilian life was in these horrific and tragic events, President Truman was faced with a tough choice. Japan itself was working on an atomic bomb, a main component of which was scheduled to be completed on August 19th, just a few weeks after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If completed, it would have been used on the U.S. Unfortunately, the war could have gone on much longer and killed many more Americans and Japanese. It was considered very dishonorable in Japanese culture to surrender (which is why American POWs were treated so poorly in their POW camps) and it would have dragged out much longer without a quick end. Truman's decision unquestionably saved the lives of many Allies. Unfortunately, civilians were killed by the two bombs. Again, horrific, but in the end they probably saved many more lives than the bombs took. That is why President Obama went to Hiroshima and met with survivors and spoke against the usage of nuclear weapons, but he did not in any way apologize for the U.S. or Harry Truman. I do agree with you that a good deed doesn't erase a bad one, but in this circumstance I think that the bombings, while tragic, were necessary. Well, obviously I disagree, but I understand the logic of your argument. Appart from the fact that many specialist consider that the dropping of the bombs were unecessary at this point a s Japan was getting crushed in every direction and this probably served no other purpose than testing ones (even more problematicly on civilians...), I happen to have read this book when I was about 18 : www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/anders/Anders1962BurningConscienceEatherlyOCR.pdfThis is a collection of the epistolary conversations between one member of the crew who dropped the bombs and the philosopher Günther Anders. This was one of the most profound reading of my life. There's nothing to agree or disagree with, it's just first hand experience by the only voice of the team that tried to escape the latter monitoring of the defense department (several movie attempts about his life were halted). He may have been a largely sketchy and unreliable character, but his feelings about the affair afterwards seem guenuine, and the distance from Anders is enough to make it highly relevant, a supremely interesting book in many regards, whatever your feelings are about the question. Even if Earthly may have lied about some aspects of his story, the message is more important and was at the time it manifested mostly absent from public debate. edit : here's a critique - librarianshipwreck.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/the-attempt-to-keep-conscience-alive-reflections-on-the-book-burning-conscience/
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Post by tingramretro on Jun 29, 2016 0:51:09 GMT -5
Hahah, you may be right, your constitution is so fucked up anyways. That a legislative text is hold as sacred scripture always sounded nutty to me I know I'm hyperboling, but when a text of law & rights constantly has to be interpreted, something has IMHO gone wrong. And I wasnt talking about the good or bad deeds of the US but the possible ones of NATO and CIA. Just one, thing, though : the idea that europeans recruited the US to form NATO is... somewhat at odds with history. But about the US though, I guess that some of us will never forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but that's another story... You're welcome for D-Day. But maybe I'm hyperbolizing. Actually, I may be misremembering, but I seem to recall that we had something to do with D-Day, too...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 29, 2016 6:43:20 GMT -5
You're welcome for D-Day. But maybe I'm hyperbolizing. Actually, I may be misremembering, but I seem to recall that we had something to do with D-Day, too... "So did we"! say the Canadians in the back row. The thing about the atomic bombs that Arthur mentioned is a very emotional one. Such weapons of mass destruction, with effects that linger and are so terrible, naturally ellicit a reaction of horror. However, if we stop to think about it, when we get to the point where we're ready to kill other beings, the means become something of a detail. As dreadful as atomic bombs are, they are not particularly more inhumane than the kind of standard bombing that razed Dresden. Furthermore, if we get into the sick logic of numbers, killing 50,000 Japanese civilians to save the 1,000,000 + who would have died during a ground invasion (not to mention the U.S. soldiers who would have died, something a responsible president MUST take into account) starts making a lot of sense. Plus there's the ugly realpolitik of the day: the west had to show the Russians that it would be a bad idea to get too greedy after Germany had fallen. The one thing I still do not understand is why the bomb was dropped on cities instead of, say, a few kilometers away... Just to demonstrate what an atomic explosion was and scare the Japanese government into surrendering. Of course that may be wishful thinking (and from an armchair corporal, to boot): after all, even after cities blew up, the Japanese weren't wiling to give up (you don't want those guys as your enemies). A few generals even mounted a coup to topple the govenment after it started considering surrendering! So I don't blame the US for using the atom bomb to quickly put an end to a nightmarish war. It was a terrible thing to do, but war is about doing terrible things to the other guy before terrible things are done to you.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 29, 2016 8:19:35 GMT -5
You're welcome for D-Day. But maybe I'm hyperbolizing. Actually, I may be misremembering, but I seem to recall that we had something to do with D-Day, too... So that this is done, let's be clear. I was responding to Scratch's post, which speaks for itself. I was using parody and understatement to do so. Sorry if the attempt at either was too obtuse. I am far from an apologist for the US, which I think my posts in other threads over the years will demonstrate. I am deeply respectful for the British Empire's contribution to the war against militarism, imperialism and fascism, particularly in Europe and Africa. You want to debate who did what and when during the Second World War, fine. Happy to participate, but that's a discussion for another thread, maybe even another forum. And lest any of us forget, we all have 20 million dead Russian soldiers and civilians to thank.
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