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Post by batlaw on May 27, 2016 5:29:01 GMT -5
... This is very disturbing... I remember when Brubaker first hinted of Bucky still being alive and all the vitriol he got from it. I don't remember if there was death threats, but there sure were some very nasty attacks on that decision. After the story was finally told, it became the universaly loved cap story, or at least one of the top ones ever. Why would we instantly believe this is just a publicity stunt and not a well thought story that will unfold in a spectacular way (a good one I mean)? Nick Spencer just launched one of the most acclaimed titles of 2016 (The Fix) and has been responsible for many well regarded books. I personnaly haven't been that exposed to his work, mostly because a reality check on the amout of time available to me, but one thing I'm sure Spencer isn't is a Scott Lobdell or a Fabian Nicieza, so I really dont understand this reflex-like lack of faith. What I suspect is that the vast majority of those who criticize this haven't bought the issue in question and never would have whatever content it withholds. This obviously is such a bold move that it must have been initiated at editorial level, and Spencer has on the record stated that this had been the core of discussions during the past two Marvel summits, so that wouldn't be some whim just carelessly thrown at the gossip sites to generate hype. But, really, when did we get that impatient that we start to dismiss anything after the first 20 pages of a several hundred pages story if it hints at temporary shake of the status quo, when we as comic readers know all too well that there will be new shakes at least every consecutive 20 pages? by and large how I think too. I haven't read it or know if I will, and without doing so, there could be reason for me to like or care for it. Could be plenty issues beyond just the shock twist that'd rub me wrong. At any rate, I'm inclined to think a big reason for the negative blowback is simply timing. The characters popularity is at an all time high (no doubt in large part thanks to movies) and part of the reason I think is people are happy to have a positive character like cap amongst all the current grit. And now their seemingly darkening him too. I dunno. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 27, 2016 6:26:21 GMT -5
You probably have a point with the timing issue. Which should remind all that the current success of the character is largely due to the Work Ed Brubaker did with him, one that was originaly dismissed as treason of the roots of the characters in its initial issues by many old time fans. Before that run, it seemed that no one knew how to broaden the appeal of Cap and his seemingly old school values (well, I was a huge fan of the previous Robert Morales run with Bachalo and Eddie Campbell, my favorite Cap run ever, but I might have been the only one), and the storyline Brubaker told started on a grim path, with a complete flip on the history of a beloved character, also changing his alligiance in a very disturbing way (And I'm pretty sure you'd find way more Hydra supporters in real contemporary USA than ones supporting soviet communists...).
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Post by The Captain on May 27, 2016 6:59:21 GMT -5
Everything old is new again.... Cap saluting Hitler...as drawn by Jack Kirby himself...  and this page from Cap #234 published in 1979...  yes this new Marvel has no respect for the past and will do anything in a story to get a rise out of it's audience... Nick Spencer gets death threats from comics fans and proud Americans for making Cap a Nazi sympathizer Hydra agent, Joe Simon got death threats for having Cap punch Hitler on the cover of Captain America Comics #1 in 1941 from comics fans and proud Americans. Yes, we've never seen anything like this ever before in a Captain America comic book... Cue Santayana's quote or something like that here... -M Both of these examples were different than the current situation, however, because both of them showed beforehand that Cap was under the influence of mind control. In the first example (which I have already covered in my review thread), Steve has been captured by the Red Skull and is subjected to an entire issue of being broken through a combination of torture and drugging, and he attempts to resist until the last moment when his will is finally broken. The second example is in the middle of an ongoing storyline in which Doctor Faustus has already brainwashed Sharon Carter and eventually captures Steve, at which point he administers mind control drugs and his brainwashing techniques (the drugs are mentioned at the end of issue #233, and the brainwashing takes place between issues). This is being handled in the exact opposite way. Nick Spencer has gone for the shock at the outset with no inkling it is coming, and then he will most likely peel back the layers to reveal what happened. It's a different style of storytelling more prevalent in modern works, and while it is not my cup of tea, it does appeal to some. I've calmed down after my original hot take and will give this a chance, but I certainly understand why some people would not be thrilled with it. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 27, 2016 7:21:18 GMT -5
Both of these examples were different than the current situation, however, because both of them showed beforehand that Cap was under the influence of mind control. In the first example (which I have already covered in my review thread), Steve has been captured by the Red Skull and is subjected to an entire issue of being broken through a combination of torture and drugging, and he attempts to resist until the last moment when his will is finally broken. The second example is in the middle of an ongoing storyline in which Doctor Faustus has already brainwashed Sharon Carter and eventually captures Steve, at which point he administers mind control drugs and his brainwashing techniques (the drugs are mentioned at the end of issue #233, and the brainwashing takes place between issues). This is being handled in the exact opposite way. Nick Spencer has gone for the shock at the outset with no inkling it is coming, and then he will most likely peel back the layers to reveal what happened. It's a different style of storytelling more prevalent in modern works, and while it is not my cup of tea, it does appeal to some. I've calmed down after my original hot take and will give this a chance, but I certainly understand why some people would not be thrilled with it. That is very true, Spencer is using a more modern storytelling technique. Back when the two given exemples were published, those comics were essentially read by young kids. Modern readers are way older and would probably be born by the over-exposition. Where is the suspense if you know the plot before it even happens? I read this yesterday on CBR, from the buy pile : "No, just ... no ... These comics? Not so much ... "Captain America Steve Rogers" #1 builds itself up to be a plain Jane, jingoistic regular Cap comic until it gets to the ending, which is undoubtably the worst Captain America idea in the history of Captain America. Worse than CapWolf, worse than The Captain, this digs a hole in the core of the character and poops in it. After the extraordinary success of Chris Evans' cinematic version, this undercuts that ideal and muddies the water in a way that wouldn't even be entertaining if it was US Agent, let alone (as of today) possibly the biggest super hero in the entire world. Fantastic artwork, some cute pop culture and continuity references, but an idea that will shock and disgust long time fans and leave neophytes befuddled. Kirby and Simon would not have wanted this. Awful, terrible, monstrously bad." I guess this is a good exemple of why comic book fans still struggle to get taken seriously by mainstream medias... I almost find it schyzophrenic when I read all those critics craving for simple good fun entertainment that doesn't challenge anything but the supervillain of the week... I seem to remember that the appeal of comics to kids used to be a sense that does weren't liked by the parents and therefore hold a sense of freedom if not rebellion, at least for a young kid, right? |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 7:53:57 GMT -5
The problem with this as a story is that it is so patently unbelievable. Brubaker skilfully reintegrated Bucky into the series and won over the sceptics, but he did it by using an established hole in continuity - no-one really knew what had happened to Bucky, we just assumed he'd been killed by the missile he was trying to stop.
But with this story, we've got 70+ years of Captain America stories where he patently isn't Hydra, deep cover or otherwise (though as a contra-argument, I guess that history is potentially all invalidated by the aftermath of Secret Wars, where reality got overwritten for the 8th Universe, as currently playing out in Ultimates amongst other places). Maybe Spencer can sell this in a clever way, but the immediate assumption is that this is more Red Skull / Cosmic Cube shenanigans, following on from the Skull's appearance in the recent (dire) Avengers Pleasant Hill storyline.
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Post by The Captain on May 27, 2016 8:49:42 GMT -5
Both of these examples were different than the current situation, however, because both of them showed beforehand that Cap was under the influence of mind control. In the first example (which I have already covered in my review thread), Steve has been captured by the Red Skull and is subjected to an entire issue of being broken through a combination of torture and drugging, and he attempts to resist until the last moment when his will is finally broken. The second example is in the middle of an ongoing storyline in which Doctor Faustus has already brainwashed Sharon Carter and eventually captures Steve, at which point he administers mind control drugs and his brainwashing techniques (the drugs are mentioned at the end of issue #233, and the brainwashing takes place between issues). This is being handled in the exact opposite way. Nick Spencer has gone for the shock at the outset with no inkling it is coming, and then he will most likely peel back the layers to reveal what happened. It's a different style of storytelling more prevalent in modern works, and while it is not my cup of tea, it does appeal to some. I've calmed down after my original hot take and will give this a chance, but I certainly understand why some people would not be thrilled with it. That is very true, Spencer is using a more modern storytelling technique. Back when the two given exemples were published, those comics were essentially read by young kids. Modern readers are way older and would probably be born by the over-exposition. Where is the suspense if you know the plot before it even happens? It's not about knowing the plot before it happens, but rather making sure the twist is believable. For fans of pro wrestling, the best heel turns are the ones that you can see coming due to the build-up of many small occurrences, so that when The Masked Marvel hits his partner Captain Stupendous in the back with a chair during a tag-team match and says it was because he was always pushed to the back of their partnership, fans can point to certain events and map out the progression. Having just finished Season 3 of Game of Thrones, the Red Wedding made sense from the standpoint of motivation by the perpetrator. It was shocking because it was unexpected, but looking back, the pieces were all there for it to make sense. At least for me, I couldn't believe they pulled the trigger on an event that monumental, but I could umderstand how they got to that point. This requires us, at least for now, to disregard EVERYTHING we have ever known about Steve Rogers and accept that his mother got him involved with Hydra as a child. It makes no sense and goes against the grain of the character's established history for the sake of creating buzz and selling books, and that is what a lot of people are upset with. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 27, 2016 9:37:09 GMT -5
The sense of déjà vu is also a turndown.
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Post by DE Sinclair on May 27, 2016 9:47:32 GMT -5
That is very true, Spencer is using a more modern storytelling technique. Back when the two given exemples were published, those comics were essentially read by young kids. Modern readers are way older and would probably be born by the over-exposition. Where is the suspense if you know the plot before it even happens? It's not about knowing the plot before it happens, but rather making sure the twist is believable. For fans of pro wrestling, the best heel turns are the ones that you can see coming due to the build-up of many small occurrences, so that when The Masked Marvel hits his partner Captain Stupendous in the back with a chair during a tag-team match and says it was because he was always pushed to the back of their partnership, fans can point to certain events and map out the progression. Having just finished Season 3 of Game of Thrones, the Red Wedding made sense from the standpoint of motivation by the perpetrator. It was shocking because it was unexpected, but looking back, the pieces were all there for it to make sense. At least for me, I couldn't believe they pulled the trigger on an event that monumental, but I could umderstand how they got to that point. This requires us, at least for now, to disregard EVERYTHING we have ever known about Steve Rogers and accept that his mother got him involved with Hydra as a child. It makes no sense and goes against the grain of the character's established history for the sake of creating buzz and selling books, and that is what a lot of people are upset with. You have accurately summed up how I feel about it as well. Clearly this is something that isn't going to stick. Even before they were making Cap movies that do billion dollar box-office, a change like this would never be permanent. He's successfully generated buzz for his new series with the now-traditional "everything you always knew has changed forever" stunt that will be soon negated by some complicated plot-gymnastics, because there's no way he stays a life-long Hydra/Nazi. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on May 27, 2016 9:54:12 GMT -5
... This is very disturbing... I remember when Brubaker first hinted of Bucky still being alive and all the vitriol he got from it. I don't remember if there was death threats, but there sure were some very nasty attacks on that decision. After the story was finally told, it became the universaly loved cap story, or at least one of the top ones ever. Why would we instantly believe this is just a publicity stunt and not a well thought story that will unfold in a spectacular way (a good one I mean)? Nick Spencer just launched one of the most acclaimed titles of 2016 (The Fix) and has been responsible for many well regarded books. I personnaly haven't been that exposed to his work, mostly because a reality check on the amout of time available to me, but one thing I'm sure Spencer isn't is a Scott Lobdell or a Fabian Nicieza, so I really dont understand this reflex-like lack of faith. What I suspect is that the vast majority of those who criticize this haven't bought the issue in question and never would have whatever content it withholds. This obviously is such a bold move that it must have been initiated at editorial level, and Spencer has on the record stated that this had been the core of discussions during the past two Marvel summits, so that wouldn't be some whim just carelessly thrown at the gossip sites to generate hype. But, really, when did we get that impatient that we start to dismiss anything after the first 20 pages of a several hundred pages story if it hints at temporary shake of the status quo, when we as comic readers know all too well that there will be new shakes at least every consecutive 20 pages? I took the liberty of bolding the particular statement that I'm responding to, hope you don't mind. But the reason why we would automatically believe that it's a publicity stunt (which I still believe after reading the story) is that we've seen the same sort of thing done many, many times before. There's only so many times you can be led down the "everything you thought you knew was wrong" path before your faith falters and you're not willing to jump in the windowless van when the stranger offers you candy. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 10:26:43 GMT -5
... This is very disturbing... I remember when Brubaker first hinted of Bucky still being alive and all the vitriol he got from it. I don't remember if there was death threats, but there sure were some very nasty attacks on that decision. After the story was finally told, it became the universaly loved cap story, or at least one of the top ones ever. Why would we instantly believe this is just a publicity stunt and not a well thought story that will unfold in a spectacular way (a good one I mean)? Nick Spencer just launched one of the most acclaimed titles of 2016 (The Fix) and has been responsible for many well regarded books. I personnaly haven't been that exposed to his work, mostly because a reality check on the amout of time available to me, but one thing I'm sure Spencer isn't is a Scott Lobdell or a Fabian Nicieza, so I really dont understand this reflex-like lack of faith. What I suspect is that the vast majority of those who criticize this haven't bought the issue in question and never would have whatever content it withholds. This obviously is such a bold move that it must have been initiated at editorial level, and Spencer has on the record stated that this had been the core of discussions during the past two Marvel summits, so that wouldn't be some whim just carelessly thrown at the gossip sites to generate hype. But, really, when did we get that impatient that we start to dismiss anything after the first 20 pages of a several hundred pages story if it hints at temporary shake of the status quo, when we as comic readers know all too well that there will be new shakes at least every consecutive 20 pages? I took the liberty of bolding the particular statement that I'm responding to, hope you don't mind. But the reason why we would automatically believe that it's a publicity stunt (which I still believe after reading the story) is that we've seen the same sort of thing done many, many times before. There's only so many times you can be led down the "everything you thought you knew was wrong" path before your faith falters and you're not willing to jump in the windowless van when the stranger offers you candy. See that's the thing though, we have seen it before (i.e. Cap turned against his traditional values for a shocker story twist) but everyone is reacting like gasp this is the first time it's ever happened and somebody kicked my puppy/pissed in my Cheerios how dare they this is the worst thing that ever happened, let's grab torches and pitchforks and hunt down Spencer/head to the Marvel offices, etc. etc. It's par for the course mainstream comic book storytelling in the 21st century, nothing more, nothing less, the status quo gets flipped on its head every other arc or so then put back together, and this too shall pass. Status quo changing stories for Cap (or any other big 2 characters) rarely stay i place past the end of the story-line-Cap's still not the Nomad or The Captain while someone else wears the Cap suit, the super-soldier serum isn't still killing his Cap so he has to wear a suit of Cap armor, etc. etc. etc. (though each of those tropes has been revistied/redone/rehashed several times since the first time they were trotted out by a writer working on Marvel. It's not new to current Marvel, it's pretty much business as usual in comics, just some stories happened in an era we have fond memories of wo get looked at with rose-colored glasses and given a pass because we want to like the era, and others get the stink eye because we don't have rose colored glasses for the era they were done in and aren't predisposed to try to like them because of it. We can saw it's different this time, or that's not they way they did this type of story back then, but hey guess what, change is constant and now is not then, very little in any entertainment form is done now the way it was done then and the way entertainment is done changes as the audience changes to keep up. For me, it doesn't look like a good start to a story-line, but I haven't read it yet myself (don't plan to until it hits Unlimited) but it seems to have stirred up a tempest in a tea pot. -M |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 27, 2016 10:42:01 GMT -5
The problem with this as a story is that it is so patently unbelievable. Brubaker skilfully reintegrated Bucky into the series and won over the sceptics, but he did it by using an established hole in continuity - no-one really knew what had happened to Bucky, we just assumed he'd been killed by the missile he was trying to stop. But with this story, we've got 70+ years of Captain America stories where he patently isn't Hydra, deep cover or otherwise (though as a contra-argument, I guess that history is potentially all invalidated by the aftermath of Secret Wars, where reality got overwritten for the 8th Universe, as currently playing out in Ultimates amongst other places). Maybe Spencer can sell this in a clever way, but the immediate assumption is that this is more Red Skull / Cosmic Cube shenanigans, following on from the Skull's appearance in the recent (dire) Avengers Pleasant Hill storyline. My question remains : why would you even have any immadiate assumption when you know very well, that this only is the very first tiny chapter of a hundreds page long story and that Marvel would never throw the cash cow that Cap has now become down the toilet?! Nick Spencer has been hired by marvel to be one of its architects, not you, me or the other fans. He is a professionnal creative writer, I can only assume he'll seek plots and answers elsewhere than us regular comic audiences will look for. He already proved that with where he's looking for the questions  |
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Post by Warmonger on May 27, 2016 10:53:10 GMT -5
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 27, 2016 11:12:15 GMT -5
I took the liberty of bolding the particular statement that I'm responding to, hope you don't mind. But the reason why we would automatically believe that it's a publicity stunt (which I still believe after reading the story) is that we've seen the same sort of thing done many, many times before. There's only so many times you can be led down the "everything you thought you knew was wrong" path before your faith falters and you're not willing to jump in the windowless van when the stranger offers you candy. Se that's the thing though, we have seen it before (i.e. Cap turned against his traditional values for a shocker story twist) but everyone is reacting like gasp this is the first time it's ever happened and somebody kicked my puppy/pissed in my Cheerios how dare they this is the worst thing that ever happened, let's grab torches and pitchforks and hunt down Spencer/head to the Marvel offices, etc. etc. It's par for the course mainstream comic book storytelling in the 21st century, nothing more, nothing less, the status quo gets flipped on its head every other arc or so then put back together, and this too shall pass. Status quo changing stories for Cap (or any other big 2 characters) rarely stay i place past the end of the story-line-Cap's still not the Nomad or The Captain while someone else wears the Cap suit, the super-soldier serum isn't still killing his Cap so he has to wear a suit of Cap armor, etc. etc. etc. (though each of those tropes has been revistied/redone/rehashed several times since the first time they were trotted out by a writer working on Marvel. It's not new to current Marvel, it's pretty much business as usual in comics, just some stories happened in an era we have fond memories of wo get looked at with rose-colored glasses and given a pass because we want to like the era, and others get the stink eye because we don't have rose colored glasses for the era they were done in and aren't predisposed to try to like them because of it. We can saw it's different this time, or that's not they way they did this type of story back then, but hey guess what, change is constant and now is not then, very little in any entertainment form is done now the way it was done then and the way entertainment is done changes as the audience changes to keep up. For me, it doesn't look like a good start to a story-line, but I haven't read it yet myself (don't plan to until it hits Unlimited) but it seems to have stirred up a tempest in a tea pot. -M This is really simply a manifestation of the Sturm und Drang that is endemic to the internet and social media. Everything must be "The worst thing evah!" or "The best thing evah!" or it must "Blow yur mind!" or any of a dozen other clickbait superlatives. And it's not just people who have come to the character from the movies and don't know the history of serial story-telling or bloggers who are trying to make political hay from it (yes that is happening), but it's also comic book readers who should damn well know that this isn't going to last and it almost certainly isn't "real." What is important is that there be something to be outraged about RIGHT DAMN NOW!!! |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 27, 2016 12:12:07 GMT -5
Exactly : ME and Now... Additionnaly, I'm prety sure that if this really was the very first offensive Cap story to be that offensive, there'd be enough old stories to read or re-read to last a lifetime for those outraged "readers". This would only mean Marvel is smart, trying to craft something to those readers who crave for something else that hasn't been done before. But as it has already been pointed out several times, this is hardly that much "outside the box" or even completly alien to the nature of the title. Especially since again, WE STILL KNOW NOTHING about what is really going on! There's just a storytelling choice that gives us some context and new informations, ones that our knowledge of this industry and especially Marvel should be reminders that in the end, they'll find a deus ex machina, especially since the property still is hot! We can only hope that DEM will be fun and interesting |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 14:47:53 GMT -5
And now people who despise this story because it ties Cap to Naziism are burning copies of the book and filming/uploading it....hmmmm let's protest Nazism by using a tactic the Nazis were really good at-burning books....does anyone see the irony or the sheer stupidity in this?
-M
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