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Post by rberman on May 5, 2018 22:49:30 GMT -5
You do have to hand it to Morrison though for not suing the shit out of WB for lifting so many of his concepts from The Invisibles for The Matrix. The guy was just happy to see his work out there and good for him Moore on the other hand absolutely detests anyone's adaptations of work Well that would just expose Morrison to lawsuits for all the esoteric ideas he stole form the books he was reading. The core mythology of the Invisibles is taken straightfrom Rosicrucian treatises, blended with Terrence McKenna's ideas, sprinkle in a little Moorock Eternal Champion and add a couple other books that Morrison mentioned inthe letters pages and if you read them all you've already read everything in the Invisibles ecept some of the characters that act as tour guides. It's essentially Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code and a guided tour of Templar mythology except Morrison's Invisibles gives you a guided tour of Rosicrucian esoteric mythology, and that would revela him to be the intellectual poser that he is. And I say that with the Invisibles being one of my favorite Vertigo series. All I know about the Rosicrucians is from Umberto Eco's novel "Foucault's Pendulum." Was that a likely Morrison source?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 23:15:20 GMT -5
Well that would just expose Morrison to lawsuits for all the esoteric ideas he stole form the books he was reading. The core mythology of the Invisibles is taken straightfrom Rosicrucian treatises, blended with Terrence McKenna's ideas, sprinkle in a little Moorock Eternal Champion and add a couple other books that Morrison mentioned inthe letters pages and if you read them all you've already read everything in the Invisibles ecept some of the characters that act as tour guides. It's essentially Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code and a guided tour of Templar mythology except Morrison's Invisibles gives you a guided tour of Rosicrucian esoteric mythology, and that would revela him to be the intellectual poser that he is. And I say that with the Invisibles being one of my favorite Vertigo series. All I know about the Rosicrucians is from Umberto Eco's novel "Foucault's Pendulum." Was that a likely Morrison source? Morrison likely read the obscure Rosicrucian treatises from the ealry modern period plus the works of others who wrote about them. There's a lot of Robert Anton Wilson on his stuff too. The entirety of the Invisibles is built on the allegory of the Invisible College (hence the name of the series) and their ideas on how to transform the world and their struggle in secret against those who oppose them. The whole of the Et in Acadia Ego sequence is based on the many esoteric works claiming secret meaning of Poussin painting (which also plays a large role in Templar mythology, especially those who place the Rosicrucians as a survival of the Templars who went into hiding after they were suppressed by the puppet pope of the French monarchy. When Invisibles started I was wrapping up my Master's thesis which touched on more historical aspects of the Templars but I had also done a lot of grad research on the Hermetic movement, the Rosicrucian Manifestos, and the influence of millennialism (see Norman Cohn's Pursuit of the Millennium for a guidebook to the movement through history), the prophetic writings of Joachim of Fiore, and more, plus I had been turned on to Wilson's Illuminati trilogy and his other writings, and part of the reason I liked Invisibles so much was that it seemed Morrison had taken a bunch of my research notebooks and turned them into a ripping comic book adventure. I had encountered but McKenna's ideas but never read McKenna before Morrison talked about his stuff int he letters pages of the Invisibles and had tracked them down. I had been a fan of Grant's stuff on Animal Man and Doom Patrol before Invisibles, and really enjoyed Invisibles when it hit, as I said, but when I first started encountering comic chatter on the net a few years into Invisibles, and saw everyone praising Grant for all these wild original ideas, I was like WTF? Don't you people read the kind of weird stuff Invisibles is based on? There's nothing much original there. It may be "new" to comics but it's hardly original stuff he was putting int he books. It was tapped into a tradition that was centuries old and had been passed on through allegorical stories purporting to be original and often true stories based on personal experiences (things like the Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkruetz by Andrae) by those within the traidition to speak to others in the tradition without revealing the tradition itself. I was able to track down most of Morrison's sources and influences in the pre-internet age when you had to rely on university interlibrary loans, occult bookstories and antiquarian societies to find some of the stuff, and frankly it surprises me in the ease of access to information age that is the internet era more people having tracked down the stuff Morrison cribs form for this series and called out the claims of originality. But then most folks are too lazy or don't care enough to, and the lie that Morrison is a great original idea man has been repeated often enough that it has become a "truth" for those who want to believe it. Morrison is an entertaining comic writer. He has a knack for taking obscure esoteric ideas outside the mainstream and turning them into comic stories that seem deeper and more original than they are. He would have been an interesting the subject to a great sequel to Orson Welles F is for Fake. -M
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Post by Batflunkie on May 5, 2018 23:38:59 GMT -5
I'd be interested in a copy of that thesis MRP if you still have one. I'm also highly interested in the Knights Templar, hence my admiration and love for Batman's Azrael.
Also, saying that Morrison is a "hack fraud" is a bit much when there are far worse out there like Bendis and Slott. I however won't argue that Morrison might not be wholly original. Because at the end of the day, who is?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2018 0:02:05 GMT -5
I'd be interested in a copy of that thesis MRP if you still have one. I'm also highly interested in the Knights Templar, hence my admiration and love for Batman's Azrael. Also, saying that Morrison is a "hack fraud" is a bit much when there are far worse out there like Bendis and Slott. I however won't argue that Morrison might not be wholly original. Because at the end of the day, who is? I was more of an economic historian by training and the thesis itself focused on the development of banking mechanisms (the Templars are now often credited as being the first international bankers or the first multinational, but in the mid-90s when I was doing the thesis the Medici and other Renaissance bankers were often credited with the feat of introducing banking to Europe, but I traced the financial mechanism back form the Renaissance to the Templars and further back to Arab and Jewish merchants operating in the levant pre-Crusades (and only stopped there because I could not read original sources in Arabic or Aramaic), so that thesis doesn't revolve around the esoteric stuff I mentioned, but I was also interested in intellectual history, and doing independent studies with my thesis adviser and other work with him researching the influence of the Hermetic tradition on the scientific revolution (both Newton and Francis Bacon were Hermetic alchemists and potentially part of the movement that became known as Rosicrucianism-check out the works of Dame Francine Yates for a foundational work on the subject) and on the influence of milleniallism on several of the intellectual traditions of the late medieval and early modern period which is where I encountered a lot of the more esoteric stuff. Ironically, it was encountering Eco's Foucault's Pendulum as a senior at university that introduced me to the Templars and the esoeteric traditions that laid the groundwork for a lot of my graduate work and had led me to the Robert Anton Wilson stuff during the 3 years I took off between undergrad and grad school. I am not sure I still have copies of the thesis-I haven't touched on it since an offer to turn it into a monograph by a non-profit educational outreach organization fell through about 15 years ago. If I do, it's a print hard copy not a digital file as it was done on a Mac and I haven't used a Mac since the turn of the century. -M
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Post by rberman on May 6, 2018 6:44:31 GMT -5
When Invisibles started I was wrapping up my Master's thesis which touched on more historical aspects of the Templars but I had also done a lot of grad research on the Hermetic movement, the Rosicrucian Manifestos, and the influence of millennialism (see Norman Cohn's Pursuit of the Millennium for a guidebook to the movement through history), the prophetic writings of Joachim of Fiore, and more, plus I had been turned on to Wilson's Illuminati trilogy and his other writings, and part of the reason I liked Invisibles so much was that it seemed Morrison had taken a bunch of my research notebooks and turned them into a ripping comic book adventure. I had encountered but McKenna's ideas but never read McKenna before Morrison talked about his stuff int he letters pages of the Invisibles and had tracked them down. I had been a fan of Grant's stuff on Animal Man and Doom Patrol before Invisibles, and really enjoyed Invisibles when it hit, as I said, but when I first started encountering comic chatter on the net a few years into Invisibles, and saw everyone praising Grant for all these wild original ideas, I was like WTF? Don't you people read the kind of weird stuff Invisibles is based on? There's nothing much original there. It may be "new" to comics but it's hardly original stuff he was putting int he books. It was tapped into a tradition that was centuries old and had been passed on through allegorical stories purporting to be original and often true stories based on personal experiences (things like the Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkruetz by Andrae) by those within the traidition to speak to others in the tradition without revealing the tradition itself. I was able to track down most of Morrison's sources and influences in the pre-internet age when you had to rely on university interlibrary loans, occult bookstories and antiquarian societies to find some of the stuff, and frankly it surprises me in the ease of access to information age that is the internet era more people having tracked down the stuff Morrison cribs form for this series and called out the claims of originality. But then most folks are too lazy or don't care enough to, and the lie that Morrison is a great original idea man has been repeated often enough that it has become a "truth" for those who want to believe it. Morrison is an entertaining comic writer. He has a knack for taking obscure esoteric ideas outside the mainstream and turning them into comic stories that seem deeper and more original than they are. He would have been an interesting the subject to a great sequel to Orson Welles F is for Fake. This forum never ceases to amaze and inspire me with the erudition of its contributors! As Bono once said: "Every artist is a cannibal/Every poet is a thief." He was probably paraphrasing something he read. Leonard Cohen loved the poetry of the Spanish poet Federico Garcia Lorca so much that he named his daughter Lorca. Joni Mitchell was impressed with Cohen's poetry, then was "disappointed" when she eventually read Lorca and saw how much of him was in Cohen. Yet she herself copied Cohen, and then lived to see her own work admired and emulated by subsequent female songwriters from Emily Saliers (who also drew from Virginia Woolf), Suzanne Vega, Alanis Morrisette, and even Taylor Swift. The line of blues music in recordings can be traced generationally from Bessie Smith and Robert Johnson to Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Muddy Waters to the Rolling Stones to Led Zeppelin to Van Halen to Motley Crue to Soundgarden to Korn to Disturbd until it's like the tenth generation photocopy of a painting, only resembling the original in the vaguest details. So too in comic books we find novel recombinations of the DNA of (mostly) Western culture. Lobo and Punisher and Wolverine are Achilles, still sulking in his tent over the insulting behavior of King Agammemnon. Batman is Odysseus, the "man of twists and turns" equally at home on a battlefield or in a laboratory, but flavored by the distinct urban dread of the Great Depression era that birthed a hundred noir gumshoes. The Hulk is Heracles by way of Dr. Jekyll, his mighty deeds regularly undone by fits of rage. For Morrison, Cyclops was Samson or Launcelot, the noble warrior brought to ruin by sexual indiscretion. Half the fun (for the educated reader) is figuring out where to place each character and story, like a police task force connecting photos and news clippings with yarn on the wall.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2018 16:15:04 GMT -5
When I read Morrison's Supergods, I realized Morrison styles himself s the Aleister Crowley of the comic book set-playing at being the chosen of some higher consciousness to be the messenger of some hidden revelation designed change the world and allow some transcendence but what it it's true goal is, is to accumulate as much adulation for himself as possible, all of it boiling down to bullshit to dazzle the masses who want something to believe in outside "the norm" but really just looking for a different standard to conform to and get a sense of belonging. Morrison is great at peddling that vibe, and he's a decent storyteller so it works for him. The cult of Morrison is legion.
-M
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 7, 2018 11:58:45 GMT -5
I like Morrison's comics but Supergods was so dreadful and self-serving. Not only presenting DC's hyped 'events' written by his friends as seminal parts of comics history, but the whole 'my hallucinations are cooler than yours' vibe.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 7, 2018 12:15:05 GMT -5
Supergods is hands down the worst book I've read in the last 25-30 years. I'll preface by saying that I'm very good at reading books that I'm pretty sure I'll at least like. I know what I like and what I don't and I'm not wrong very often. So it's rare that I read a prose book that I actively dislike. Supergods was one of them.
The "history" section of the book was trite and poorly researched and significantly inferior to a not-particularly-good website. The remainder of the book was the type of self-involved navel-gazing that makes me want to alternately pull my hair out and throat-punch the author. I'm not a Morrison hater. I'm also not one to deify him. I've loved some of his comic work. I've been indifferent to some of it. And there's been some I haven't cared for. But Supergods is a new level of God Awful.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 7, 2018 18:02:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Morrison uses his comics writing to process the stuff that he's reading/listening/thinking about.
I appreciated MRP's notes on the Invisibles and Roschurian myth (which I have no background in) but there's a lot more going on in the Invisibles than MRP notes - There's a bunch of music and fashion and (if I'm remembering right, this was really dense) visual arts. And A BUNCH of sociology.
And very, very little from Moorcock.)
And, yeah, I think he's brilliantly original. Every artist has influences - being able to process and utilize influences in your chosen field from non-fiction and completely different media like music COUNTS as brilliantly original in my book. It's the same kind of creativity as Shakespeare or the Beatles or Robert Frost. (How many artists can you think of that are really, truly, original in any form? Kirby? John Coltrane, kinda, in his later stuff and I'm not ever sure about that? Old Dirty Bastard? That is my list!)
And he changes and switches influences on every project. It's not just that he's reading the same dudes and gals over and over, but Doom Patrol is a whole different set of influences than the Invisibles is a whole different set of influences than SeaGuy and 7 Soldiers and Vinamarama, is a whole different set of influences than Klaus. And then you have Batman using his venture capital to turn "Batman" into a franchise and fight Prince. (Batman v. Prince is the best idea.) Also Morrison's very open about his influences - It's not like he's copping ideas from esoteric sources and hoping no-one notices; he's trying to turn his audience on to this cool new book/album/concept that he's excited about.
And some of the creativity is that, when he's on, he can be a brilliant structural and formal comics writer. JLA was fairly simple in concept, but nothing in comics was ever paced and constructed (story-wise) like JLA before JLA. And WE3 was developing new formal ways to show fight scenes on the comic page. (And after at least 100,000 fight scenes in mainstream comics since the golden age, that is saying something!) Aand his comics work functions as counterpoint-to-the-dominant-storytelling-styles/criticism in really interesting ways.
He also has huge problems with pacing and, sometimes, basic narrative coherency. His characters pretty much all speak with the exact same rhythm, and too often have similar diction and word choice. He didn't learn how to write for/collaborate with his artists AT ALL 'till Seven Soldiers. Aaaand much of his recent creator owned work has been... what's the word I'm looking for here.... somewhere between "disappointing" and "bad." And his insistence on staying in character all the time means that he's never really written anything really heaartfelt.
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Post by Batflunkie on May 7, 2018 23:35:02 GMT -5
I appreciated MRP's notes on the Invisibles and Roschurian myth (which I have no background in) but there's a lot more going on in the Invisibles than MRP notes - There's a bunch of music and fashion and (if I'm remembering right, this was really dense) visual arts. And A BUNCH of sociology. And very, very little from Moorcock.) Moorcock seems to have inspired a lot of English writers, which is strange to me considering that he's not very well known in America unfortunately except in certain circles that are fans of the high fantasy/hard science fiction genre. Gaiman also penned a whole friggin' comic about him and Elric. Though to be perfectly honest, it feels weirdly surreal and uncomfortable almost for the sake of it just like the Comical Tragedy Of Mr. Punch. But it is from the perspective of a child after all, and recollections of childhood experiences, traumatic or otherwise, are almost always 95% over interpretation and exaggeration
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2018 23:37:13 GMT -5
I appreciated MRP's notes on the Invisibles and Roschurian myth (which I have no background in) but there's a lot more going on in the Invisibles than MRP notes - There's a bunch of music and fashion and (if I'm remembering right, this was really dense) visual arts. And A BUNCH of sociology. And very, very little from Moorcock.) Moorcock seems to have inspired a lot of people, which is strange to me considering that he's not very well known unfortunately except in certain circles that are fans of the high fantasy/hard science fiction genre. Gaiman also penned a whole friggin' comic about him and Elric. Though to be perfectly honest, it feels weirdly surreal and uncomfortable almost for the sake of it just like the Comical Tragedy Of Mr. Punch. But it is from the perspective of a child after all, and recollections childhood experiences are almost always 95% over interpretation and exaggeration Minor correction: Gaiman wrote a short story. P. Craig Russell adapted it into a comic. First appeared as a short story in 1994 in the Tales of the White Wolf Anthology. Adapted in 1996 by P. CRaig Russell as the zero issue for Topps/Dark Horses adaptation of Stormbringer. First appeared in a Gaiman short story collection in 1998 (Smoke & Mirrors). -M
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 9, 2018 1:24:28 GMT -5
Huh. I should be on the look out for that. I've enjoyed all the other adaptation of Gaiman's prose. I must have read the story, but don't remember anything about it.
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Post by Batflunkie on May 9, 2018 7:40:48 GMT -5
Huh. I should be on the look out for that. I've enjoyed all the other adaptation of Gaiman's prose. I must have read the story, but don't remember anything about it. It's a lot like Gaiman's "Tragical Comedy Of Mr. Punch", where it's a weirdly surreal and slightly uncomfortable "slice of life" about a man reflecting on his formative years as a boy. Yeah, it is about Moorcock and Elric to an extent, but it more or less takes a backseat to the boy's trials and tribulations in a catholic private school
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Post by rberman on May 12, 2018 15:24:31 GMT -5
So, it's confession time. I started My New X-Men review thread becase what I really wanted to discuss was the Joss Whedon run on Astonishing X-Men, but I felt that it was best contextualized as a continuation of, and rebuttal of, the Grant Morrison run that immediately preceded it. But I didn't anticipate, well, that Grant Morrison is very weird and esoteric. As I mentioned early in this thread, my other readings in Morrison sometimes left me feeling bewildered. This suggested that either I was a bad reader, or he was a bad writer, or both. But there is another possibility (again not to the exclusion of the first two).
When I reviewed Astro City by Kurt Busiek, I knew going in that the whole series was an homage to Silver Age heroism, not only in theme, but also expecting the reader to be familiar with many Silver Age characters and situations on which Busiek was commenting. He could tell parts A and E of the story and reasonably expect the reader to know B,C, and D. He could throw out references to comics creators and use them as wry commentary on various elements of his own fictional world. So Busiek was making lots of in-jokes, but I (having a passing though certainly not encyclopedic familiarity with the Silver Age) was in on the joke.
But with Morrison, I now realize, there's a lot of knowledge he assumes with which I am simply unfamiliar. The Rosicrucian stuff mentioned in this thread is one example. Morrison is also apparently deep into the British underground rock scene as not only a consumer but also a producer, and the world of kinky performance art, and the culture of psychedelic drugs. In 2012, he published a whole 450 page nonfiction book, "Supergods," which apparently explains his personal philosophy and how it came out in works like New X-Men and All-Star Superman. I had no idea, and now I wish I had read it before I started reviewing him. He's into a whole world of pop psychology tied up with "The Sekhmet Hypothesis" and "Prometheus Unchained" that would meet with the approval of his villain John Sublime.
He has a lot of things that he'd like to say in comic book form. But the only way he can get access to the top-tier artists he craves is to work with major publishers like Marvel and DC. And working with Marvel and DC has generally meant toning down the thematic elements, hiding them, hinting at them under the cover of adventure stories about people in tights punching each other. I suspect the major market (such as it is now) has proven more open to his more ambitious ideas than it was twenty years ago.
Anyway, I know now that there's a lot more to know before I'm qualified to really write informative reviews of Morrison works. Seems like there's a Masters or Doctoral thesis in it for someone.
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Post by Batflunkie on May 12, 2018 19:44:23 GMT -5
Multiversity kind of broke that a little. It's pretty daring for a mostly self contained sequential event over trillions of possible universes. I had hoped that we'd see some bleed over into the main DC Universe like with whats happening currently with Dark Knights Metal, but it was probably nixed over how badly New 52 and DCYou did. It's a shame really because Grant's one of the few people out there that can legitimately do a Kirby style cosmos shattering event and not have it read poorly
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