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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2021 14:22:30 GMT -5
It's best in small doses. I love a lot of Silver Age DC, but it's not material suited for binge reading. Read one or two stories, move on to something else, come back the next day read one or two more, wash, rinse, repeat. Don't try to sit and read an entire volume in one sitting, you'll burn out quickly. -M Why do you think that is? I have been able to read 2,3,4 issues at a time of X-men and Avengers DC in the Silver Age assumed a young customer base with a high turnover rate. There were things that sold well and things that didn't, so there were "winning formulas" for stories and the titles became very formulaic. They are fine, fun adventure stories most told in single issues. Too many issues in a row and they take on a sameness and you start too see the formula more than the story or the characters. They were meant to be read individually a month or two apart. They are not telling one big story in serialized fashion, each one stands on its own as a story, but there is a lot of similarity between stories. Early Marvel, especially driven by the Kirby creation engine, were created with a different creative mindset. Jack wasn't as interested in formula as in telling stories that interested him. A lot of the early Marvel stuff that wasn't driven by the Kirby creative engine relies just as much on formula as the DC stuff and is just as hard to read in succession (early Ant-Man, the Thor stories during the period Kirby wasn't on the book, the Torch stuff from Strange Tales for example). It was a matter of approach and writing for an intended audience. Most were writing for kids who didn't stick around long. Kirby was writing for himself and his own enjoyment (that just happened to entertain a lot of others as well). Writing for an audience often falls into that formulaic trap of repeating what works ad nauseum. Writing for oneself leads to a little more variety as you don't want to bore yourself. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 13, 2021 14:25:00 GMT -5
Why do you think that is? I have been able to read 2,3,4 issues at a time of X-men and Avengers DC in the Silver Age assumed a young customer base with a high turnover rate. There were things that sold well and things that didn't, so there were "winning formulas" for stories and the titles became very formulaic. The fine, fun adventure stories most told in single issues. Too many issues in a row and they take on a sameness and you start too see the formula more than the story or the characters. They were meant to be read individually a month or two apart. They are not telling one big story in serialized fashion, each one stands on its own as a story, but there is a lot of similarity between stories. Early Marvel, especially driven by the Kirby creation engine, were created with a different creative mindset. Jack wasn't as interested in formula as in telling stories that interested him. A lot of the early Marvel stuff that wasn't driven by the Kirby creative engine relies just as much on formula as the DC stuff and is just as hard to read in succession (early Ant-Man, the Thor stories during the period Kirby wasn't on the book, the Torch stuff from Strange Tales for example). It was a matter of approach and writing for an intended audience. Most were writing for kids who didn't stick around long. Kirby was writing for himself and his own enjoyment (that just happened to entertain a lot of others as well). Writing for an audience often falls into that formulaic trap of repeating what works ad nauseum. Writing for oneself leads to a little more variety as you don't want to bore yourself. -M DC's war books are super bad in this regard even well in to the Bronze Age. You can even start seeing them recycle plots if you read a year or so in a row.
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Post by MDG on Dec 13, 2021 15:50:45 GMT -5
Why do you think that is? I have been able to read 2,3,4 issues at a time of X-men and Avengers DC in the Silver Age assumed a young customer base with a high turnover rate. There were things that sold well and things that didn't, so there were "winning formulas" for stories and the titles became very formulaic. They are fine, fun adventure stories most told in single issues. Too many issues in a row and they take on a sameness and you start too see the formula more than the story or the characters. They were meant to be read individually a month or two apart. They are not telling one big story in serialized fashion, each one stands on its own as a story, but there is a lot of similarity between stories. Early Marvel, especially driven by the Kirby creation engine, were created with a different creative mindset. Jack wasn't as interested in formula as in telling stories that interested him. A lot of the early Marvel stuff that wasn't driven by the Kirby creative engine relies just as much on formula as the DC stuff and is just as hard to read in succession (early Ant-Man, the Thor stories during the period Kirby wasn't on the book, the Torch stuff from Strange Tales for example). It was a matter of approach and writing for an intended audience. Most were writing for kids who didn't stick around long. Kirby was writing for himself and his own enjoyment (that just happened to entertain a lot of others as well). Writing for an audience often falls into that formulaic trap of repeating what works ad nauseum. Writing for oneself leads to a little more variety as you don't want to bore yourself. -M Yeah, this is it, and as much as I love Silver Age DC, they're not made for binge reading.
Also, even though Fox, Broome, Binder, Hamilton worked steadily and contributed to the "mythos" of DC characters, I don't think they harbored any illusion that they were anything more or less than hired hands on company-owned characters.
During the 60s, I think Kirby--and Ditko to a lesser extent--felt they were working on "their" characters and were moving forward with the characters in a way closer to newspaper strip creators than comic book workers.
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Post by badwolf on Dec 13, 2021 16:15:18 GMT -5
To each his own. I loved his Avengers stories and he did good work in the Valiant / Broadway companies. That second Avengers run covered by the podcast was okay, but for me the quality improved after Roger Stern took over. I like the second run although I wish Tigra had been treated a bit better. But yes Rog made the book great again.
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Post by badwolf on Dec 13, 2021 16:39:28 GMT -5
I am about halfway through the Fourth World Omnibus by John Byrne and really enjoying it. It is quite epic and there are many places where I look at a spread and think Kirby--not that he is slavishly imitating him, but it is faithful to his spirit. The only down part so far is the Genesis miniseries stuck in the middle. In the intro Byrne said that it was the only part he didn't enjoy working on and who can blame him--we know how these crossover events are. It was supposed to be handled in the main book but he was forced into this event and apparently things behind the scenes did not go smoothly. Even though he wrote it, it doesn't sound like the same voice as the rest of the book and if his name wasn't there--listed after the artists for some reason--I wouldn't have thought it was him. The art is poor and it's got several regrettable versions of characters, like electric Superman, Guy Gardner Warrior, and savage Aquaman. And to be honest I didn't really understand it--some of this cosmic stuff goes over my head. But now that's over and we're back to the real stuff. Walter Simonson is handling the backup stories. I'm learning a lot about the New Gods that I never knew before.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 14, 2021 16:52:02 GMT -5
I’m still reading Kirby’s Fourth World. Yesterday I read Big Barda’s first appearances in Mister Miracle #4 and #5.
Today I read Mister Miracle #6 with the first Funky Flashman! And Houseroy!
Oh boy! This is so great!
Vinnie’s not inking anymore. Vinnie was doing a pretty good job (for Vinnie), especially on New Gods. But it looks better and more consistent without him.
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Post by kirby101 on Dec 14, 2021 18:19:37 GMT -5
Vinnie's inks did look pretty good, the problem was the pencils he erased before he inked.
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Post by MWGallaher on Dec 14, 2021 18:27:14 GMT -5
I read a couple of issues of HERO, 6 issues of which were published by Marvel in 1990, which, remarkably enough, featured a character named Cody Pace who seems not to have been brought back for anything since, none of the massive events, not even to be killed off. I read it because I'm interested in comics that completely flew under my radar, or at least disappeared entirely from it shortly after blipping on my mental radar screen.
It's written by David Michelinie, whose work I loved on Unknown Soldier, and drawn, for the first four issues, by Steve Purcell. If this is the same Steve Purcell who created Sam & Max, Freelance Police, he's a far better humor artist than adventure artist, because the work here is really rough. HERO is a fantasy about a shmuck transported into a mystical realm of wizards, warriors, and monsters. Michelinie's attempts at humor are cringe-inducing, and while he has some good fantasy ideas (like a character whose eyes can leave his head and ambulate, giving the character the powers of remote viewing), those ideas are presented in a clumsy "Here's a cool idea I had for a fantasy character" manner, rather than feeling skillfully integrated into the storytelling. I skimmed the final two issues, where Richard Howell--a superior penciller for this kind of comics--takes over. Not recommended, unless you want to see a truly forgotten character from one of the big comics publishers.
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 14, 2021 21:28:17 GMT -5
2 of my favorite ESSENTIAL collections were ones that had the entire runs of short-lived series... THE ASTONISHING ANT-MAN and JOHNNY STORM, THE HUMAN TORCH. These are just plain fun. ANT-MAN was a bit erratic, because of the almost constant changing between Jack Kirby, Don Heck, Dick Ayers, and others whose names escape me. When I re-read all my 60s Marvels chronologically, I was reminded that Giant-Man & The Wasp arguably got even better in the early days of THE AVENGERS, first with Kirby, then with Don Heck. Heck probably did my favorite version of The Wasp, especially when he was teamed with Frank Giacoia. The JOHNNY STORM series I enjoyed far, far more than I ever enjoyed any story I have ever read featuring the original HUMAN TORCH. If it were DC, I guess it would be like enjoying an "Earth-1" character more than an "Earth-2" version. There were only 3 real periods on this one-- Kirby (classic stuff), Dick Ayers (MUCH funnier!) and Bob Powell (somehow, nobody involved in those seemed to know what they were doing... it was good thing when the series ended to be replaced by NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD). One rather bizarre (and amusing) bit I was never aware of until I was able to read the entire JOHNNY STORM series, was that the character of Doris Evans, arguably the most "DC"-style bad girlfriend ever seen at Marvel (at least in the 60s) was created by... Jerry Siegel. Well, that figures!
Why would any guy go out with a girl who couldn't stand anything about what he did?
It was wonderful when Johnny finally "grew up" and met somebody who was clearly made for him... Crystal. (My contempt for what Roy Thomas & Gerry Conway later did to that relationship cannot even be put into words. You can tell they didn't create those characters.)
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Post by MWGallaher on Dec 14, 2021 22:16:41 GMT -5
ANT-MAN and HUMAN TORCH were the most eagerly-anticipated Essentials for me, too, Prof. Getting the whole run in a single volume was a big part of the appeal, as was the "underdog" quality of those being the first substantive series of the Marvel Age to get the ax. It's notable that both features underwent major retoolings in an attempt to stave off cancellation, with the addition of the Wasp and the change to Giant-Man, and the addition of The Thing to make Johnny's feature "The Fantastic Two". The only comparable adjustment I can think of among their Marvel contemporaries was the relatively short-lived (and, in retrospect, ill-advised) shift to the WW II setting for Captain America's feature.
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Post by badwolf on Dec 15, 2021 13:26:13 GMT -5
The Fourth World Omnibus also includes the Darkseid issue from that month where they released a bunch of "Villains" one-shots. (The only one I bought was Scarecrow.) The story fits right in with the ongoing FW series so I don't know why they made it a separate book. Damn company events! This issue has a different artist and some of the characters are off-model. Granny Goodness has lost a lot of weight and now qualifies as "thicc."
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Post by profh0011 on Dec 15, 2021 15:47:35 GMT -5
with the addition of the Wasp and the change to Giant-Man It's a nice progression. Wasp added so much on several levels. But NOBODY could ever seem to figure out what to do with Giant-Man... except, in THE AVENGERS. I kinda think, though I'm pretty sure it was never said in the stories, that Pym became Giant-Man because teamed with Iron Man, Thor & Hulk, he was afraid of getting lost, left behind, or stepped on.
One of my favorite Giant-Man sequences remains the 1st I ever read, from AVENGERS #4. Namor's men toss a net over him while he's underwater. HEY, where did he go? He shrunk to Ant-size to escape... then, grew to GIANT-size to clobber the guys who tossed the net. That was cool.
Whenever I look at AVENGERS #4, I think Kirby was really on his game that week. It's like EVERY panel was pin-up worthy... except for George Roussos MURDERING the art with the inks. When I read the interview with him where he admitted he was doing the editor a favor by inking for half-rates on the weekend, my jaw dropped. That explained a lot. He was inking TEN PAGES A DAY. The only nice thing, was his lack of ego, when he admitted that even HE was happy when the guy was able to afford someone better (Chic Stone).
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 15, 2021 16:55:16 GMT -5
Aww, I’ve always liked the Roussos inking on those issues. It helps that it was a bunch of really good stories in a row.
I like the way that the Hulk and the Thing look filthy during that big fight in New York City. The way Roussos inked it, it looks like they really kicked up the dust.
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Post by commond on Dec 16, 2021 9:16:28 GMT -5
I finished the Garth Ennis/Steve Dillon Punisher mini-series. I guess Ennis' take on the Punisher character wasn't bad, and Dillon's art was all right, but the sophomoric attempts at black humour were too much for me.
I also read the re-colourized collection of Dave Stevens' Rocketeer. I normally dislike re-colouring of older comics, but I have to admit it was a pretty good colouring job. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the quality of Stevens' work. It's just a shame that the stories up and end just when it's getting good.
Another thing I finished was Terry Moore's original Strangers in Paradise mini-series. This was a series I was aware of back in the 90s but didn't really know what it was all about. The art was slightly more cartoony than I was expecting, but I liked the overall dynamic. I could easily have seen myself picking this series up in the 90s alongside Bone and the other titles I was reading.
And I also made it to the end of the first arc of John Ostrander & Tom Mandrake's Spectre. I know I've read this series before, but I can't recall if I made it through to the very end. It was so long ago that it feels like I'm reading it again for the first time. I don't entirely love the first arc, but the last three issues are some of the most intense stuff I've read in a while. I guess I had completely forgotten the details of the story because the finale hit me like a ton of bricks and the last panel is flat out amazing. It's a really grim and gritty 90s comic, but the storytelling is uncompromising, especially for a non-Vertigo book.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Dec 16, 2021 9:19:20 GMT -5
I finished the Garth Ennis/Steve Dillon Punisher mini-series. I guess Ennis' take on the Punisher character wasn't bad, and Dillon's art was all right, but the sophomoric attempts at black humour were too much for me. I also read the re-colourized collection of Dave Stevens' Rocketeer. I normally dislike re-colouring of older comics, but I have to admit it was a pretty good colouring job. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the quality of Stevens' work. It's just a shame that the stories up and end just when it's getting good. Another thing I finished was Terry Moore's original Strangers in Paradise mini-series. This was a series I was aware of back in the 90s but didn't really know what it was all about. The art was slightly more cartoony than I was expecting, but I liked the overall dynamic. I could easily have seen myself picking this series up in the 90s alongside Bone and the other titles I was reading. And I also made it to the end of the first arc of John Ostrander & Tom Mandrake's Spectre. I know I've read this series before, but I can't recall if I made it through to the very end. It was so long ago that it feels like I'm reading it again for the first time. I don't entirely love the first arc, but the last three issues are some of the most intense stuff I've read in a while. I guess I had completely forgotten the details of the story because the finale hit me like a ton of bricks and the last panel is flat out amazing. It's a really grim and gritty 90s comic, but the storytelling is uncompromising, especially for a non-Vertigo book. The coloring on the early Rocketeer stories was absolutely dire. An incredible disservice to the art. Which was true of a lot of the 80s Independent books.
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