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Post by gothos on Oct 5, 2014 12:19:21 GMT -5
The status of WW as JSA secretary is one of those curiosities that may never be adequately explained. To the extent that I thought about it, I too probably would have regarded the relegation as sexism. However, in recent years I've tended to think that it looks more like a business maneuver than the degradation of a character who was making a lot of money for DC Comics. I'll admit straight out that no DC employee, to my knowledge, has ever commented publicly on the fine points of contractural interactions between DC and William Marston, one of the few comics-creators who managed to get a contract with DC. All that has leaked down to fans is that DC was supposed to keep the character in print in order to maintain their right to publish the character. I think these days DC owns the character outright, but 'twas not always so. The theory has been advanced-- I don't know who came up with it first-- that Marston might have responsible for limiting WW's participation in the JSA, except in those instances where Marston and Peter were called upon to contribute a story. Most of the creators who worked for Golden Age DC didn't sign contracts and had no control over when or where their creations were used. Marston was an exception, and it's possible that, while he didn't mind if WW sat around in the JSA meeting room-- since that might in theory coax a few readers to check out the ongoing WW features-- the good doctor may have nixed the idea of WW being active in the group unless he Marston and his favored artist made some folding-green from it. It's a highly speculative theory, I confess. But remember that to DC Comics, the primary function of the JSA was to persuade readers to purchase other DC features over the competition. A few comments on this. I've spoken with Christie Marston(William's granddaughter) and she confirmed to me about 6 months ago that the deal that DC has to publish Wonder Woman at least 4 times per year is still in place. As for Wonder Woman's status in the JSA, William was outraged when he found out WW would only be the team's secretary. He wanted her to be a full-blown member. Very interesting info. Yet it doesn't entirely contradict my original speculation. It's a fact that some JSA stories do feature WW in her own separate stories, so at some point, the editors were working with Marston and Peter. I don't have the whole set of stories available, so I can't check to see the frequency with which WW was either a featured character or "just a secretary." The latter could have been a strategy used by the editors to marginalize Marston while still giving face-time to his creation for their own profit. I just don't think pure sexism is the whole explanation. If it were, the editors never would have featured any WW stories in JSA at all, IMO.
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Post by misterintensity on Oct 5, 2014 13:31:59 GMT -5
A few comments on this. I've spoken with Christie Marston(William's granddaughter) and she confirmed to me about 6 months ago that the deal that DC has to publish Wonder Woman at least 4 times per year is still in place. As for Wonder Woman's status in the JSA, William was outraged when he found out WW would only be the team's secretary. He wanted her to be a full-blown member. Very interesting info. Yet it doesn't entirely contradict my original speculation. It's a fact that some JSA stories do feature WW in her own separate stories, so at some point, the editors were working with Marston and Peter. I don't have the whole set of stories available, so I can't check to see the frequency with which WW was either a featured character or "just a secretary." The latter could have been a strategy used by the editors to marginalize Marston while still giving face-time to his creation for their own profit. I just don't think pure sexism is the whole explanation. If it were, the editors never would have featured any WW stories in JSA at all, IMO. I recall in an issue in Alter Ego which stated that the real reason Wonder Woman was the JSA secretary was because in her first JSA story where she did have a role that Marston rewrote the Wonder Woman portion to fit in with his philosophies that it did not fit the story being told. The editors were so incensed that they basically limit Wonder Woman's involvement in the JSA to that of secretary for the rest of Marston's life. As soon as Marston died, Wonder Woman participated in stories fully and became a full member. It seems it was a case where Marston had so much control over the character that rather than dealing with him they just limited the character's participation.
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Post by misterintensity on Oct 5, 2014 13:50:20 GMT -5
The story in question is Shanghaied into Space in All-Star Comics #8 by Gardner Fox. A summary is provided at www.comics.org/issue/2422/. As noted the Wonder Woman chapter was rewritten by William Moulton Marston. Even the summary reads more like a Wonder Woman story than a Justice Society story. It seems like the intention was to make her a full member but Marston's interference ended any chance of that.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 5, 2014 14:10:21 GMT -5
So they wanted to sideline Wonder Woman because they were mad at Moulton. But they still wanted her in the book. And the only thing they could think of to achieve this was to make her the secretary. And there's no sexism involved no how.
I am dubious. To me, it looks like somebody is bending over backwards to minimize any hint that sexism might be involved when a powerful entity like Wonder Woman is made the secretary of a group of super-heroes.
(In DC's defense, Wonder Woman was probably the only one of the members who had any secretarial training. You know, because as Diana Prince she was a woman in the military and women couldn't be in combat or anything so she had to be a secretary to make herself useful. No sexism there either.)
Ladies and gentlemen, I present the 1940s ...
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Post by gothos on Oct 5, 2014 18:25:09 GMT -5
The story in question is Shanghaied into Space in All-Star Comics #8 by Gardner Fox. A summary is provided at www.comics.org/issue/2422/. As noted the Wonder Woman chapter was rewritten by William Moulton Marston. Even the summary reads more like a Wonder Woman story than a Justice Society story. It seems like the intention was to make her a full member but Marston's interference ended any chance of that. Thanks for the info. This picture of DC editors as grudge-holding control freaks is IMO substantiated by recollections by other Golden Age pros, particularly those of Siegel and Kirby.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 18:26:06 GMT -5
The story in question is Shanghaied into Space in All-Star Comics #8 by Gardner Fox. A summary is provided at www.comics.org/issue/2422/. As noted the Wonder Woman chapter was rewritten by William Moulton Marston. Even the summary reads more like a Wonder Woman story than a Justice Society story. It seems like the intention was to make her a full member but Marston's interference ended any chance of that. Thanks for the info. This picture of DC editors as grudge-holding control freaks is IMO substantiated by recollections by other Golden Age pros, particularly those of Siegel and Kirby. The more things change..... -M
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Post by gothos on Oct 5, 2014 18:27:44 GMT -5
So they wanted to sideline Wonder Woman because they were mad at Moulton. But they still wanted her in the book. And the only thing they could think of to achieve this was to make her the secretary. And there's no sexism involved no how. I am dubious. To me, it looks like somebody is bending over backwards to minimize any hint that sexism might be involved when a powerful entity like Wonder Woman is made the secretary of a group of super-heroes. (In DC's defense, Wonder Woman was probably the only one of the members who had any secretarial training. You know, because as Diana Prince she was a woman in the military and women couldn't be in combat or anything so she had to be a secretary to make herself useful. No sexism there either.) Ladies and gentlemen, I present the 1940s ... I don't dismiss the possibility that sexism played a role in the specific assignment given WW. But, barring further evidence, I tend to believe that a well-oiled business was the first concern of the editors.
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Post by fanboystranger on Oct 5, 2014 22:24:14 GMT -5
To be honest, as a guy who has never really gotten WW, Azz' run is my favorite. It's pretty much the only one that's consolidated her mythological roots with her superhero standing, something that always rubbed me wrong about previous incarnations. (It seemed like a superhero book with some mythological trappings, something that Thor has often suffered from.) I can't deny there's been some mis-steps, particularly involving the Amazons, but Wonder Women herself has never seemed as vital a character as she has under Azz' pen. She's seems a true leader-- someone who is willing to all her soldiers viewpoints, then formulate a strategy-- and I'm not sure there's ever been a storyline where she's been more caring. If that's sexism, I'm living in a different world. I'd follow this WW into Hades itself (and blow out his candles).
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Post by Dr. Poison on Oct 6, 2014 6:58:27 GMT -5
To be honest, as a guy who has never really gotten WW, Azz' run is my favorite. It's pretty much the only one that's consolidated her mythological roots with her superhero standing, something that always rubbed me wrong about previous incarnations. (It seemed like a superhero book with some mythological trappings, something that Thor has often suffered from.) I can't deny there's been some mis-steps, particularly involving the Amazons, but Wonder Women herself has never seemed as vital a character as she has under Azz' pen. She's seems a true leader-- someone who is willing to all her soldiers viewpoints, then formulate a strategy-- and I'm not sure there's ever been a storyline where she's been more caring. If that's sexism, I'm living in a different world. I'd follow this WW into Hades itself (and blow out his candles). I don't find Wonder Woman being a leader as sexist. Some of the parts that I find to be sexist are that her classical female gods that she patronized have been replaced with mostly male deities and Orion's treatment of Diana and Aleka. In your defense, as a new reader to Wonder Woman, I can see why all of the changes Azz made wouldn't bother you but that's the thing, a lot of the current readership of Azz's Wonder Woman are new fans who don't know a lot about Wonder Woman's history or what her creator intended her to be and while Azz has brought in some new fans, he's also alienated a lot of long-time fans such as myself. Sales of Azz's run are basically the same as most of the runs in the last 10 to 15 years so it's basically a wash.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 14:18:42 GMT -5
To be honest, as a guy who has never really gotten WW, Azz' run is my favorite. It's pretty much the only one that's consolidated her mythological roots with her superhero standing, something that always rubbed me wrong about previous incarnations. (It seemed like a superhero book with some mythological trappings, something that Thor has often suffered from.) I can't deny there's been some mis-steps, particularly involving the Amazons, but Wonder Women herself has never seemed as vital a character as she has under Azz' pen. She's seems a true leader-- someone who is willing to all her soldiers viewpoints, then formulate a strategy-- and I'm not sure there's ever been a storyline where she's been more caring. If that's sexism, I'm living in a different world. I'd follow this WW into Hades itself (and blow out his candles). I don't find Wonder Woman being a leader as sexist. Some of the parts that I find to be sexist are that her classical female gods that she patronized have been replaced with mostly male deities and Orion's treatment of Diana and Aleka. In your defense, as a new reader to Wonder Woman, I can see why all of the changes Azz made wouldn't bother you but that's the thing, a lot of the current readership of Azz's Wonder Woman are new fans who don't know a lot about Wonder Woman's history or what her creator intended her to be and while Azz has brought in some new fans, he's also alienated a lot of long-time fans such as myself. Sales of Azz's run are basically the same as most of the runs in the last 10 to 15 years so it's basically a wash. Ahem, to this post - I find Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman destroyed all my love of her from 1965 to 2011 - At 2011 he took over Wonder Woman and it's took DC Comics 3 years to realize that his books are angering old fans like me and alienating fans that knows her history/lineage/heritage and that bothers me too. When you change a character you got to be careful with it and that's why many fans like me are disgusted by Brian Azz when he took over as the New 52 version of Wonder Woman back in 2011. As far as Dr. Poison - and I will back him up Sales of his book/run are basically the same as most of the runs in the past 10 years and like he said it's basically a wash and I know exactly what he means here. I just can't wait for the Finches take over and restore Wonder Woman back to greatness - I'm a big fan of David Finch's art and Meredith's writing as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 14:55:49 GMT -5
At 2011 he took over Wonder Woman and it's took DC Comics 3 years to realize that his books are angering old fans like me and alienating fans that knows her history/lineage/heritage and that bothers me too. Are you suggesting DC took Azz off the book because old fans didn't like it? Everything I've read made it seem like Azz was just done telling the stories he wanted to tell.
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Post by Dr. Poison on Oct 6, 2014 15:07:21 GMT -5
At 2011 he took over Wonder Woman and it's took DC Comics 3 years to realize that his books are angering old fans like me and alienating fans that knows her history/lineage/heritage and that bothers me too. Are you suggesting DC took Azz off the book because old fans didn't like it? Everything I've read made it seem like Azz was just done telling the stories he wanted to tell. As much as I don't like Azzarello's run, mars is correct here. Azzarello signed a 3 year contract with DC on Wonder Woman and that contract is up with issue #36 which comes out in a few weeks. I am thankful though that DC didn't ask Azz to extend that contract or get him to sign a brand new one on the book. I fear for whatever DC character he gets a hold of next.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 15:28:57 GMT -5
I don't find Wonder Woman being a leader as sexist. Some of the parts that I find to be sexist are that her classical female gods that she patronized have been replaced with mostly male deities and Orion's treatment of Diana and Aleka. In your defense, as a new reader to Wonder Woman, I can see why all of the changes Azz made wouldn't bother you but that's the thing, a lot of the current readership of Azz's Wonder Woman are new fans who don't know a lot about Wonder Woman's history or what her creator intended her to be and while Azz has brought in some new fans, he's also alienated a lot of long-time fans such as myself. Sales of Azz's run are basically the same as most of the runs in the last 10 to 15 years so it's basically a wash. Ahem, to this post - I find Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman destroyed all my love of her from 1965 to 2011 - At 2011 he took over Wonder Woman and it's took DC Comics 3 years to realize that his books are angering old fans like me and alienating fans that knows her history/lineage/heritage and that bothers me too. When you change a character you got to be careful with it and that's why many fans like me are disgusted by Brian Azz when he took over as the New 52 version of Wonder Woman back in 2011. As far as Dr. Poison - and I will back him up Sales of his book/run are basically the same as most of the runs in the past 10 years and like he said it's basically a wash and I know exactly what he means here. I just can't wait for the Finches take over and restore Wonder Woman back to greatness - I'm a big fan of David Finch's art and Meredith's writing as well. By fan of Meredith's writing, you mean the one published work she had at Zenescope? And Finch's art style will not win back the core of fans who see Wonder Woman as a feminist icon that were driven away by Azz's writing, they will see it as further proof that DC doesn't understand what the appeal of the character is. She is not the pin up girl of the DCU, which is basically how Finch draws her. When I attended a seminar a few years back (about 8-10 months into the new52), held at Wright State university looking at Superman and Wonder Woman as metaphors for the immigrant experience, a panel consisting of Mark Waid, Christy Blanch, and several professors of cultural history, women's studies, ethnic studies, Communications and other media related areas, the one thing that incensed them above all others about Azzarello's run was the change of Wonder Woman's origin. The subtext as they saw it, was that in the clay origin Wonder Woman was something wonderful created by women alone-no man had a hand in the creation of her, and she was something wonderful, powerful, and independent, and that by inserting Zeus as her father the powers that be were saying that they could not accept something created solely by woman as being something good and it had to have a masculine presence in it for it to be palatable for them. Add to that the changing of the Amazons from an idyllic race of females to a race that is based on rapine raids on males to perpetuate their kind is basically the company and the writer demeaning anything that women alone could build and insisting it has to have a male contribution in it to be viable. Now take a writer whose only experience is writing for a company that revels in exploitative covers of fairy tale women and an artist who depicts the icon of femininity, strength and independence as a usually submissive cheesecake pin up and tell me that's going to win that audience back? Yeah, not going to happen. The Finch's will get a sales surge just like Azz and Chiang did, and will drop back tot he same old sales numbers WW has gotten forever by the end of the first year of their run (if it lasts that long without constant fill ins creeping in as Finch never met a deadline he could keep up with). Wonder Woman will continue in that rut until DC/WB finds a way to tap into the zeitgeist that made Wonder Woman a cultural icon that has lasted and resonated for 70+ years and do a run on her that appeals to someone other than those fans looking for either cheesecake fan service or cynical anti-superhero counter-runs on the book. By continuing to ignore those things about the character that are continually celebrated in the wider culture and marketing the book towards the fanboy element of the comic buying subset, they are limiting the success they could achieve with the character. Anyone who watches any part of the Independent Lens documentary on Wonder Woman can see the palpable effect she has had on people... These are people dying to spend their money on a Wonder Woman they could support. Azz wasn't it. The Finches aren't either. The problem is, those customers will not be reached by the direct market, and DC will not commit the resources to find an audience beyond it. They are too concerned with getting a bigger slice of the existing pie from Marvel than growing the pie, so sell Wonder Woman cheesecake or bitter anti-heroine Wonder Woman or Superman's girlfriend Wonder Woman to those already buying their comics instead of creating a product that would succeed in a wider market because that is not the market they service. -M
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 15:37:55 GMT -5
I'm totally loss here and furthermore - I'm so frustrated of Brian Azz's storytelling that bothers me so much that I just can't wait for the Finches take over and furthermore Wonder Woman can have a fresh start. Dr. Poison (I do know him for 3 years) calls you correct mars - but knowing that I've been a member here for 3 weeks here and you and I do not have history here and I just wanted to say one thing ... I'm not a fan of Brian Azz's work on Wonder Woman and I just in loss of words of why his book keeps losing customers every single month in the past two years is mind boggling and I just wanted to share that with you that mars and sorry that I just don't understand your point here and having said that - I'm closing the doors here and decided not to bother it anymore.
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Post by gothos on Oct 6, 2014 15:59:52 GMT -5
MRP said:
I agree with this, but with one exception: some of the zeitgeist that made Wonder Woman able to sustain two features at once was a consequence of World War II boosterism. Both Wonder Woman and the Sub-Mariner were in part popular because even though they were not Americans, they made America's cause their own. In an inversion of the trope in which godlike Americans go to Europe to save the Allies, they're godlike Allies defending Americans and other Allies-- and Wonder Woman even drapes herself in the stars and stripes to reduce any sense of her "foreign-ness." It may not be a coincidence that neither character has enjoyed anything like the sales/popularity they once enjoyed.
Wonder Woman was also at her most popular when she was aimed at kids, the primary purchasers of comic books in the Golden Age. Her fame and the complexity of her original setup could make it possible for her to enjoy success with an older audience-- but it would have to be in a format that modern adults would buy, and that ain't the floppy magazine format.
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