shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 25, 2016 22:57:36 GMT -5
Finished Church & State I tonight (after all, Church & State II unlocks next week, for anyone still doing this with me). I have to say that I enjoyed this volume a lot more on this re-reading. Sure, the plot is generally neither as interesting nor as logical as Sim would have us believe, and sure, Cerebus' behavior is entirely deplorable and makes it impossible for us to root for him (except in the circumstances when he is trying to take down someone even worse than him...though even that's debatable), but there was so much to love here.
While Gerhard's emergence late in this volume is a welcome addition, it's Sim's evolving craft as an artist that impresses me most. His talent for arrangements, for pacing, for communicating so much without words -- whether Cerebus' longing for Jaka or Cerebus taking a late night piss. He manages to make both utterly fascinating.
And, even more than that, he just nails those relationships. We could give a damn about Cerebus himself, but his final meeting with Jaka, his discussions with Bran MacMuffin, his final meeting with Weisshaupt -- each reveal a different and fascinating side of him, each enormously compelling even when they are largely heinously distasteful. The Weisshaupt condemnation especially -- wow. Cerebus' tremendous fear and anger over actually being the chosen one he has been impersonating all this time, it blows me away. From that, to realizing he's his own worst enemy, to knowing that he never knows what he wants until he can't have it anymore, Sim has finally found things that the once unshakable Cerebus truly fears, and that is tremendous.
The story, though -- not so much. It's clear Sim was just making sh*t up as he went in those final few chapters.
But I now prefer this volume to High Society, and that definitely didn't used to be the case.
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Jul 29, 2016 2:31:15 GMT -5
Greetings all!
I found this forum and this thread through google searching this specific answer and, having had a gander at the conversation here, decided to join up because you're still active, I'm reading this book for the first time and thoroughly enjoying it, and I figured you folks will have been paying attention enough (and, unlike me, have the Phonebooks so might have some of the info I'm missing by reading it in single issues) that I might get the answer I'm looking for!
I did try to search the thread for info on this but ended up spoiling myself so while I thoroughly enjoyed the commentary I saw, I figured it best for my reading enjoyment that I simply ask.
I'm in the early pages of Church & State (just got to issue #57) and I'm a little confused about what's happening with President Weisshaupt - last time I remember seeing him was in issue #22, with Cerebus leaving him to the mercy of the Beduin guards, every implication being that he'd get thrown in jail for what he, Cerebus, The Roach and Elrod had been up to. I was also under the impression that he was a self-styled President with no real power...
And now suddenly he's appeared at the Duchess' house in a position of real power (or at least the illusion of one - he may well be lying through his teeth to Cerebus about his ability to change marriage laws but I haven't seen confirmation of that and Cerebus certainly believes him) and very definitely not in jail.
Was this addressed somewhere and I missed it or do I just need to keep reading to get an explanation? The Duchess talked about him bringing Artemis over while crafting the Roach's different personalities so there's implications that he does in fact have some position in the upper class but I'm still feeling confused.
Thanks for any help you can give!
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,418
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Post by shaxper on Jul 29, 2016 2:35:47 GMT -5
Greetings all! I found this forum and this thread through google searching this specific answer and, having had a gander at the conversation here, decided to join up because you're still active, I'm reading this book for the first time and thoroughly enjoying it, and I figured you folks will have been paying attention enough (and, unlike me, have the Phonebooks so might have some of the info I'm missing by reading it in single issues) that I might get the answer I'm looking for! I did try to search the thread for info on this but ended up spoiling myself so while I thoroughly enjoyed the commentary I saw, I figured it best for my reading enjoyment that I simply ask. I'm in the early pages of Church & State (just got to issue #57) and I'm a little confused about what's happening with President Weisshaupt - last time I remember seeing him was in issue #22, with Cerebus leaving him to the mercy of the Beduin guards, every implication being that he'd get thrown in jail for what he, Cerebus, The Roach and Elrod had been up to. I was also under the impression that he was a self-styled President with no real power... And now suddenly he's appeared at the Duchess' house in a position of real power (or at least the illusion of one - he may well be lying through his teeth to Cerebus about his ability to change marriage laws but I haven't seen confirmation of that and Cerebus certainly believes him) and very definitely not in jail. Was this addressed somewhere and I missed it or do I just need to keep reading to get an explanation? The Duchess talked about him bringing Artemis over while crafting the Roach's different personalities so there's implications that he does in fact have some position in the upper class but I'm still feeling confused. Thanks for any help you can give! Weisshaupt is one of the first examples in the Cerebus saga of Sim completely altering characters on a whim to suit his needs. Not only is Weisshaupt's position of power different, but so is his characterization. It feels very much like what's done with Jakka around this point as well, and Theresa for that matter. It could be there's an explanation we both missed, but I suspect Sim wasn't all that concerned with providing one. At any rate, I'm doubly excited both to have you aboard as a new member and (hopefully) as a participant in this ongoing discussion. We're moving on to Church & State II on August 1st
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,418
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Post by shaxper on Jul 29, 2016 2:38:57 GMT -5
Heck, Cerebus went from being entirely asexual in the first volume to "needing" Red Sophia for only one reason in this one. I just don't think consistency of character mattered all that much to Sim.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 29, 2016 5:43:20 GMT -5
Greetings all! I found this forum and this thread through google searching this specific answer and, having had a gander at the conversation here, decided to join up because you're still active, I'm reading this book for the first time and thoroughly enjoying it, and I figured you folks will have been paying attention enough (and, unlike me, have the Phonebooks so might have some of the info I'm missing by reading it in single issues) that I might get the answer I'm looking for! I did try to search the thread for info on this but ended up spoiling myself so while I thoroughly enjoyed the commentary I saw, I figured it best for my reading enjoyment that I simply ask. I'm in the early pages of Church & State (just got to issue #57) and I'm a little confused about what's happening with President Weisshaupt - last time I remember seeing him was in issue #22, with Cerebus leaving him to the mercy of the Beduin guards, every implication being that he'd get thrown in jail for what he, Cerebus, The Roach and Elrod had been up to. I was also under the impression that he was a self-styled President with no real power... And now suddenly he's appeared at the Duchess' house in a position of real power (or at least the illusion of one - he may well be lying through his teeth to Cerebus about his ability to change marriage laws but I haven't seen confirmation of that and Cerebus certainly believes him) and very definitely not in jail. Was this addressed somewhere and I missed it or do I just need to keep reading to get an explanation? The Duchess talked about him bringing Artemis over while crafting the Roach's different personalities so there's implications that he does in fact have some position in the upper class but I'm still feeling confused. Thanks for any help you can give! Welcome to the board, josephwyatt! Weisshaupt is a man whose reach often exceeds his grasp. Back in Beduin he was indeed a president without power, intent on toppling the Beduin goverment. He ended up in jail for his efforts, but managed to convince the Beduinese that his talents would be better used to further their own interest than wasted in prison. That meant a 180 degree change in Weisshaupt's political message : far from the man of the people he had first presented himself at, he became an elitist (which he had always been, in any case; the only thing that interests him is his own position). As part of his activities, he came up with the idea of the United Feldwar States, an accord that was supposed to make the leaders of those states filthy rich. Weisshaupt himself managed to be made president of the UFS, even if his position is extremly vulnerable to the whims of real powers like the church, the armies of Serrea or the deep pockets of Lord Julius. When we see him again in Church and state, he is surfing his appearance of power and acting like he controls the chessboard, but we see glimpses of his actual weakness from time to time. He's also a boor, as Theresa pointed out to him; an individual who likes to act like part of the gentry, but one who is really a parvenu.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,418
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Post by shaxper on Jul 29, 2016 5:49:33 GMT -5
Wow. Impressive analysis. How much of that came from Sim, and how much of that came from you?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 29, 2016 7:20:08 GMT -5
Wow. Impressive analysis. How much of that came from Sim, and how much of that came from you? It's all from Sim, shax; part of it we learn when Weisshaupt reappears in Church & State and he explains to Cerebus why he's no longer in prison, part of it comes from his exchanges with Theresa. There's also a very telling scene in which he stares down a bishop in an argument about who really holds power in the UFS (I think it was Powers, but I'd have to check) only to collapse nervously and reach for a drink once the bishop leaves. The frailty of Weisshaupt's self-image is also apparent during the scene with the cannons; all his careful planning and suave facade fall aside as he tries to bully Pope Cerebus into giving him his gold. This resort to violence shows that he's not as shrewd a manipulator as he thinks, and that he can let his ego get the better of his common sense.
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Jul 29, 2016 18:00:24 GMT -5
Weisshaupt is one of the first examples in the Cerebus saga of Sim completely altering characters on a whim to suit his needs. Not only is Weisshaupt's position of power different, but so is his characterization. It feels very much like what's done with Jakka around this point as well, and Theresa for that matter. It could be there's an explanation we both missed, but I suspect Sim wasn't all that concerned with providing one. At any rate, I'm doubly excited both to have you aboard as a new member and (hopefully) as a participant in this ongoing discussion. We're moving on to Church & State II on August 1st Ah okay, if it's just something I'm going to have to get used to, that makes it easier to deal with then - I get bothered and distracted if I feel I've missed an important detail and it sends me on a search through the book and the internet trying to find an answer before I can continue. It's happened in Cerebus once already - Lord Julius' very sudden first appearance in issue #15 completely threw me off until I found out that he, his son and their connection to our favourite aardvark had been established in the "Silverspoon" comics, which, seeing as I only have issues from the main book and not any of the little tie-ins published elsewhere, I haven't read. It makes for slightly frustrating reading, though luckily everything else about it is good enough that it doesn't turn me off reading it. Many thanks for the warm welcome, at the rate I'm currently reading I can see myself joining the conversation on Church & State II maybe when you're mid-way through it, as there's no way I'm going to get through 50+ issues worth of Church & State I in just 48 hours!
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Jul 29, 2016 18:12:43 GMT -5
part of it we learn when Weisshaupt reappears in Church & State and he explains to Cerebus why he's no longer in prison. Hey, thanks for your analysis, it shed a light on what I've read so far, and your kind welcome, but I have a question about this bit - Has this explanation happened at the point I'm at (End of issue# 57, Weisshaupt has just sprung the Sophia trap on Cerebus, dressed him up in his new outfit and explained his plan of manipulating people with trashy romantic fiction), or is it yet to come? Because I've just skimmed through the issues I've already read and while there's a lot explanation of Weisshaupts plans and what his position of power is, I can't find anything referring to his time in prison.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 29, 2016 19:07:42 GMT -5
Yes, it has happened (in fact, most of it happens earlier than I remembered, back when Weisshaupt shows up at the Countess's place).
I doubt Weisshaupt ever was in prison; he must have negociated with the Beduinese immediately after his being arrested (and as I can't find that scene, perhaps shax is right: maybe I misremember it! Or it comes from an interview with Dave Sim. I just know I'm not clever enough to have analyzed Weisshaupt's character so carefully).
In any case, Lower Felda is part of the UFS, so it's a good guess that Weisshaupt started pushing his ideas right there. I'm sure the rulers of Beduin must have liked the idea of filling their pockets thanks to his plan.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,418
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Post by shaxper on Jul 29, 2016 22:10:20 GMT -5
Weisshaupt is one of the first examples in the Cerebus saga of Sim completely altering characters on a whim to suit his needs. Not only is Weisshaupt's position of power different, but so is his characterization. It feels very much like what's done with Jakka around this point as well, and Theresa for that matter. It could be there's an explanation we both missed, but I suspect Sim wasn't all that concerned with providing one. At any rate, I'm doubly excited both to have you aboard as a new member and (hopefully) as a participant in this ongoing discussion. We're moving on to Church & State II on August 1st Ah okay, if it's just something I'm going to have to get used to, that makes it easier to deal with then - I get bothered and distracted if I feel I've missed an important detail and it sends me on a search through the book and the internet trying to find an answer before I can continue. It's happened in Cerebus once already - Lord Julius' very sudden first appearance in issue #15 completely threw me off until I found out that he, his son and their connection to our favourite aardvark had been established in the "Silverspoon" comics, which, seeing as I only have issues from the main book and not any of the little tie-ins published elsewhere, I haven't read. It makes for slightly frustrating reading, though luckily everything else about it is good enough that it doesn't turn me off reading it. the later printings of Cerebus Book 1 include the Silver Spoon stories. My copy from 2001 has it. I can imagine how confusing it must have been not to have them. Really excited to have you aboard!
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Post by Overlord Thundersnow on Jul 31, 2016 16:54:56 GMT -5
As a kid, I always saw the Cerebus books and was intrigued. They looked really interesting, but I knew it was a 'long haul' book with tons of content. Sadly I couldn't afford them at the time. Ironically, 30 years later, I find myself in the same predicament. . Save
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Jul 31, 2016 18:22:34 GMT -5
So, I'm reading through Church & State I at a snails pace, but I just thought I'd share my first laugh-out-loud moment at a comic book in a very long time. A page from issue #59: imgur.com/Y4LDlnKAnd its follow-up in issue #61: imgur.com/bZlBESoThere's a part of me, a 28-year-old grown adult, that feels guilty for chortling so hard at a basic joke about body parts. But there's also a thirteen-year-old somewhere deep inside my heart that's still sniggering as I type this. (Images linked to rather than posted in the comment because while the joke is fairly mild, I still thought it better to toe the "family and workplace friendly" line)
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,418
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Post by shaxper on Jul 31, 2016 20:04:30 GMT -5
As a kid, I always saw the Cerebus books and was intrigued. They looked really interesting, but I knew it was a 'long haul' book with tons of content. Sadly I couldn't afford them at the time. Ironically, 30 years later, I find myself in the same predicament. The first two volumes are now available digitally for free, and Dave Sim has given his blessing to download the rest from other sources. He does not plan to enforce his copyright in that respect.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,418
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Post by shaxper on Jul 31, 2016 20:07:29 GMT -5
So, I'm reading through Church & State I at a snails pace, but I just thought I'd share my first laugh-out-loud moment at a comic book in a very long time. A page from issue #59: imgur.com/Y4LDlnKAnd its follow-up in issue #61: imgur.com/bZlBESoThere's a part of me, a 28-year-old grown adult, that feels guilty for chortling so hard at a basic joke about body parts. But there's also a thirteen-year-old somewhere deep inside my heart that's still sniggering as I type this. I probably laughed for two minutes straight after the second one. For all the seriousness and depth Sim finds in Cerebus, he's an amazing comedian when he wants to be. Have you read the one-shots he did for epic illustrated and in the Cerebus World Tour Book?
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