shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 31, 2016 23:31:47 GMT -5
Happy August. Church & State II is now unlocked for discussion.
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 1, 2016 1:11:28 GMT -5
So, I'm reading through Church & State I at a snails pace, but I just thought I'd share my first laugh-out-loud moment at a comic book in a very long time. A page from issue #59: imgur.com/Y4LDlnKAnd its follow-up in issue #61: imgur.com/bZlBESoThere's a part of me, a 28-year-old grown adult, that feels guilty for chortling so hard at a basic joke about body parts. But there's also a thirteen-year-old somewhere deep inside my heart that's still sniggering as I type this. I probably laughed for two minutes straight after the second one. For all the seriousness and depth Sim finds in Cerebus, he's an amazing comedian when he wants to be. Have you read the one-shots he did for epic illustrated and in the Cerebus World Tour Book? Indeed he is. I'm also thoroughly enjoying every scene with Sophia's mother. Her choice insults and bouts of murderous rage over the smallest of infractions, not to mention her verbal sparring matches with Cerebus, are just a delight. The way he draws the body language in some of the more charicatured characters is great too - Archbishop Posey cringing away from anyone who so much as looks at him funny, Boobah being a klutz, Weisshaupt's desperately-restrained panic attacks (played for drama half the time, but still wonderfully realised). I hear this book gets increasingly more serious as it goes on, and I think that's a shame. It's the way the comedy plays off against the more dramatic beats that makes the dramatic moments all the more effective for me - I think the first truly dramatic moment is at the beginning of High Society, when Jaka turns up again. We've just come out of the kidnapping/ransom shenanigans and the appearance of the Moon Roach, Elrod coming back and the Regency Elf being introduced, all of which is absurd and lighthearted, and then Cerebus sees Jaka. Cerebus tries desperately to keep his composure in front of her, prancing about and making grand promises, overcompensating because he doesn't want to break down and look vulnerable in front of her, and it's like the comedy side of the book is fighting not to be downed out by the drama... And completely loses when he opens Jaka's gift and we get that beautiful shot of the tears running across the sword she gave him. Anyway, rambling over. I haven't read the one-shots yet but I have a bunch of them, plan on doing it at some point if I get burnt out on the main book.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 1, 2016 1:37:55 GMT -5
I probably laughed for two minutes straight after the second one. For all the seriousness and depth Sim finds in Cerebus, he's an amazing comedian when he wants to be. Have you read the one-shots he did for epic illustrated and in the Cerebus World Tour Book? Indeed he is. I'm also thoroughly enjoying every scene with Sophia's mother. Her choice insults and bouts of murderous rage over the smallest of infractions, not to mention her verbal sparring matches with Cerebus, are just a delight. The way he draws the body language in some of the more charicatured characters is great too - Archbishop Posey cringing away from anyone who so much as looks at him funny, Boobah being a klutz, Weisshaupt's desperately-restrained panic attacks (played for drama half the time, but still wonderfully realised). I hear this book gets increasingly more serious as it goes on, and I think that's a shame. It's the way the comedy plays off against the more dramatic beats that makes the dramatic moments all the more effective for me - I think the first truly dramatic moment is at the beginning of High Society, when Jaka turns up again. We've just come out of the kidnapping/ransom shenanigans and the appearance of the Moon Roach, Elrod coming back and the Regency Elf being introduced, all of which is absurd and lighthearted, and then Cerebus sees Jaka. Cerebus tries desperately to keep his composure in front of her, prancing about and making grand promises, overcompensating because he doesn't want to break down and look vulnerable in front of her, and it's like the comedy side of the book is fighting not to be downed out by the drama... And completely loses when he opens Jaka's gift and we get that beautiful shot of the tears running across the sword she gave him. Anyway, rambling over. I haven't read the one-shots yet but I have a bunch of them, plan on doing it at some point if I get burnt out on the main book. That contrast between dramatic moments and comedy, it's what the old horror films used to do to relieve the tension. I think Sim, like Hollywood, began to see those moments as cop-outs; giving the reader a break from the tension is also giving them an opportunity to divorce themselves from the full impact of the art, or so I speculate Sim may have thought. But yes, the wonder of those stories is that they do provide such a break when Sim isn't otherwise planning to give you one.
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 2, 2016 15:15:31 GMT -5
Church & State I = finished in the nick of time. Got Church & State II ready to be opened and read once I finish typing this. shaxper , I agree with a lot of what you've already said about this volume - the story is far less tightly plotted than High Society was and in pure writing terms is probably a less impressive book. It's a lot more episodic and tonally uneven. On the flipside, though, I found Church & State far funnier - High Society had its moments but it felt like a lot of that got thrown to the wayside with the political shenanigans in the second half, which weren't exactly played straight but I found them less amusing than other areas of comedy in this book. I particularly got worn out by Cerebus' bid to be Prime Minister. Also, while I've said that the plotting and writing in HS was probably better overall, that doesn't mean Church & State I doesn't have glorious moments in it - Weisshaupt's end, and his final conversation with Cerebus, Jaka's return, THAT twist with Bran Macmufin... Art-wise I also think C&S has the edge - Gerhard joining the fray really kicked things up a notch and Sim's continued experimentation with storytelling techniques, panel layouts and physical comedy helps keep everything fresh and exciting. I'll also give props to this book for reducing the amount of times I suffered the confusion that brought me to this board seeking answers in the first place to just two occasions - the Weisshaupt business, and I'm still not entirely sure what the significance of the coin forged by Tarim himself was; was that Cerebus realising he truly was the chosen one? I must have missed the setup for it. I'm in two minds over which book I prefer. I think High Society's better written and probably the more impressive book overall, but I just enjoyed Church & State more. It'll probably need a reread once the dust has settled for me to truly get a handle on it.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 2, 2016 19:57:01 GMT -5
Church & State I = finished in the nick of time. Got Church & State II ready to be opened and read once I finish typing this. shaxper , I agree with a lot of what you've already said about this volume - the story is far less tightly plotted than High Society was and in pure writing terms is probably a less impressive book. It's a lot more episodic and tonally uneven. On the flipside, though, I found Church & State far funnier - High Society had its moments but it felt like a lot of that got thrown to the wayside with the political shenanigans in the second half, which weren't exactly played straight but I found them less amusing than other areas of comedy in this book. I particularly got worn out by Cerebus' bid to be Prime Minister. Also, while I've said that the plotting and writing in HS was probably better overall, that doesn't mean Church & State I doesn't have glorious moments in it - Weisshaupt's end, and his final conversation with Cerebus, Jaka's return, THAT twist with Bran Macmufin... Art-wise I also think C&S has the edge - Gerhard joining the fray really kicked things up a notch and Sim's continued experimentation with storytelling techniques, panel layouts and physical comedy helps keep everything fresh and exciting. I thoroughly and completely agree with your synopsis here. Yes, I took the golden coin to be proof that Bran MacMuffin had been (mostly) right all along. And I don't believe there was a setup beyond the idea that the ultimate climax to a story in which a conman continually wins by conning everyone else is the revelation that he was only actually ever conning himself. I think High Society is more consistent/even, but Church & State exceeds it at its best moments in terms of writing, art, characterization, humor, and depth/seriousness. Sim is maturing as an artist, and (as we'll see more clearly down the road) Sim's growing pains are often messy and uneven.
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 2, 2016 20:29:00 GMT -5
Yes, I took the golden coin to be proof that Bran MacMuffin had been (mostly) right all along. And I don't believe there was a setup beyond the idea that the ultimate climax to a story in which a conman continually wins by conning everyone else is the revelation that he was only actually ever conning himself. I think High Society is more consistent/even, but Church & State exceeds it at its best moments in terms of writing, art, characterization, humor, and depth/seriousness. Sim is maturing as an artist, and (as we'll see more clearly down the road) Sim's growing pains are often messy and uneven. I guess I'm slowly learning that paying attention to the small details and rereading older issues for clues is less important to understanding this book than interpreting things through context. Seems obvious now I that I say it but I guess things like the significance of the Albatross in High Society threw me for a loop. I also think you've nailed it with Church & State vs High Society - I've already shared my favourite comedy moments from Church & State and I can't think of anything from High Society that made me laugh as hard besides the Moon Roach's antics, and the only serious moment from High Society that can touch stuff like the Weisshaupt confrontation is the Jaka scene.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 2, 2016 20:33:24 GMT -5
I guess I'm slowly learning that paying attention to the small details and rereading older issues for clues is less important to understanding this book than interpreting things through context. Well you are ahead of me in that respect. It took reading all of this a second time for me to arrive at that understanding. I'd always previously assumed I just wasn't paying enough attention.
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 2, 2016 20:46:13 GMT -5
I guess I'm slowly learning that paying attention to the small details and rereading older issues for clues is less important to understanding this book than interpreting things through context. Well you are ahead of me in that respect. It took reading all of this a second time for me to arrive at that understanding. I'd always previously assumed I just wasn't paying enough attention. Ha, that's exactly how I felt reading through High Society. "Wait, the Cirinists were mentioned in that one issue a while back... Who are the Kevillists again? What's Theresa doing there, did I miss that?" I look forward to rereading it and not being so concerned about that.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 3, 2016 14:45:31 GMT -5
There is an important difference between the Cirinists and the Kevillists, but it doesn't come into play until we get far closer to the 200th issue ... for right now, it isn't terribly important.
But to give you a brief overview: Cirinism is an oppressive feminist cult founded by Cirin. Kevillism is a more libertarian feminist movement founded by Astoria in rebellion to Cirin (the word come from an ancient Estarcion book of meditation, the Kevil, whose guidings Astoria has somewhat twisted to suit her own needs).
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 6, 2016 19:08:36 GMT -5
Early observations on Church & State II:
- To boldly go/to go boldly. Hehehe. Nice to see that that's not a recent nitpick.
- The nasal congestion running joke ran on just a little too long for my liking.
- Sacred Wars Roach doesn't leave as big a goofy smile on my face as Moon Roach does (yes, I admit it, I might have a problem) but, as always, Artemis and his delusional insanity is a hoot.
- "Boom."
- Nice to see Michelle come back, and Astoria's still hanging around so presumably she's going to come back into the plot at some point.
- As an Englishman it's always fascinating watching non-Brits (especially North Americans) make fun of or try to imitate the accent/s. Spinal Tap still did the best job of it that I've seen so far, but I have to say, cartoonish, exaggerated, based off charicatures of The Rolling Stones and played totally for laughs as it is, Dave Sim actually does a pretty good written impersonation of the Mick/Keith patter.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Aug 8, 2016 14:59:10 GMT -5
Astoria's still hanging around so presumably she's going to come back into the plot at some point.
Astoria continues to, in this arc and the next. She goes from being mildly annoying to one of the best defined and sympathetic characters in the entire series.
Dave Sim actually does a pretty good written impersonation of the Mick/Keith patter.
Yeah, when he was on, he wrote some of the best and funniest accents in comics. True also for speech mannerisms ... he is the only comic writer who really 'got' the way Groucho Marx spoke, in my opinion.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 8, 2016 22:43:45 GMT -5
Finally planning to start Church & State II tomorrow evening. Looking forward to it!
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 9, 2016 1:51:01 GMT -5
You all better hurry up, I'm chomping at the bit to discuss a certain event in this volume (and I'm sure you can guess which one it is) but I thought I'd let people catch up so it's fresh in your minds.
Setting that aside, I'm really, *really* impressed by a lot of things about this volume (I'm up to "The Final Ascent"). Dave Sim's artwork especially is the best it's ever been, and the point-of-view dream sequence might just be my favourite moment in the whole series so far. The mind games being played during the trial had me at the edge of my seat. The reveal about a certain enigmatic cult/religious movement leader made my jaw drop (with some more fabulous artwork during the lead up to it).
I'll see how it ends and I need to figure out how I feel about the shock moment in the cell but right now I think this might be the best volume of the book so far.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 22:14:01 GMT -5
Started Church & State II tonight with the first six issues, right up to the introduction of Mic and Keith. I like how Sim is starting this volume off. We're about to go in far darker places than the series has tread before, but we begin with some much-needed levity. I've never found the Roach particularly funny until now, nor the brothers aiding him, but the Secret Sacred Wars bit is non-stop hilarity. Similarly, Mic and Keith are priceless, even if they feel completely out of place in this comic. I recall feeling that their part dragged on for too long in my first reading, but we'll see if that remains my impression.
But it's also clear that Sim is still winging this thing. What's with the reintroduction of Michelle and her ominous confession that everything she told Cerebus was a lie, promising to reveal a truth that gets abandoned/forgotten with the next issue? What was the point of ever bringing her back? I'll admit that my favorite of the issues I read tonight is the one where Cerebus just helps her with the chores while she talks about Weisshaupt. It's an ambitious way to move a comic forward, and it creates a sort of intimacy between Cerebus and Michelle again as he works to help with the mundane details of her private isolated world. Of course, there's a tragedy beneath all this -- their story is done, and thus there's more a sense of "what could have been" surrounding the two as they talk, even though we know there was no way these two ever would have worked out.
I still think much of Cerebus' struggle to understand people and events around him is Sim's struggle as well, and so when Sim reunites him with the women who have come close to meaning something to him, Sim is as clueless what to do with the narrative as Cerebus is. There's a brief connection, tragedy ensues, and we're all left to wonder what the heck that was all about. Why bring Michelle back just to provide a coda to Weisshaupt's life that really wasn't needed? Her story with Cerebus was done, so that wasn't a reason for a reunion either.
And, speaking of Sim's intentions with Cerebus, I found a veiled meaning in the Roach's motto about conflict creating character. He says this just as Cerebus is thrown into yet another emerging conflict, and that's where I gain further insight into what makes Cerebus such a fascinating protagonist. With all the conflicts he is thrown into, with all he experiences and bares witnesss to, does he ever develop any true character? Does Cerebus ever change in response to what he experiences? Sure, he grows a little more clever during High Society, and he wears his regrets on his sleeve, but he continues to make the same mistakes, manifest the same character flaws, and remain completely in the dark both about who he is and what he wants, even as he shapes the directions of kingdoms and possibly even the cosmos itself. Cerebus is no hero; he's a deeply flawed human. Maybe Dave Sim.
By the way, what's up with the faces on the cliffside? I've never understood that. Did I miss something somewhere, maybe back in Church & State I?
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Post by josephwyatt88 on Aug 10, 2016 1:37:29 GMT -5
By the way, what's up with the faces on the cliffside? I've never understood that. Did I miss something somewhere, maybe back in Church & State I? As far as I can tell there was no setup for it, I just took it as a little self indulgence on Sim's part to add some atmosphere of foreboding to any panels featuring the cliff. Mick comments on them at some point, saying something along the lines of (I'm totally paraphrasing here because I don't have the book on me) "Oo-er, that's a bit weird and I don't like it" - maybe that's all the acknowledgement we'll get from Sim, or maybe some explanation will come up later to prove me wrong. Or perhaps someone with a better memory than either of us or who has read further than I have can come along and correct me, but that's my take on it.
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