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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 10:39:08 GMT -5
I think era is important as well, my original Silver Age books often still look great to read these days. Whereas a fair number of my beloved Bronze Age newsprint books look like poo, the paper is so bad and the printing can be hard on the eyes. Sometimes the reprints are a relief just so I can comfortably read them. I still want the "originality" of the coloring and all, but a clean printing job. Part of that may be due to attempts to cut costs and keep the product cheap. Around 1975 or so DC went from printing with metal plates to plastic plates as a cost saving measure. The result was visibly worse printing than what Marvel was still getting from printing at the same time. It ultimately did get better as the tech improved. It's honestly funny that DC later became the standard bearer (at least as to the "Big Two") for trying out better paper and better (eventually) printing processes. I didn't realise DC had a period of using better paper or tech than Marvel- when was that? I remember around 1997 some of their comics used nice paper, but by 2000 some used such bad paper I considered dumping them- it made everything muddy and muted. Image at the time kicked their butts.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 2, 2024 10:52:03 GMT -5
Part of that may be due to attempts to cut costs and keep the product cheap. Around 1975 or so DC went from printing with metal plates to plastic plates as a cost saving measure. The result was visibly worse printing than what Marvel was still getting from printing at the same time. It ultimately did get better as the tech improved. It's honestly funny that DC later became the standard bearer (at least as to the "Big Two") for trying out better paper and better (eventually) printing processes. I didn't realise DC had a period of using better paper or tech than Marvel- when was that? I remember around 1997 some of their comics used nice paper, but by 2000 some used such bad paper I considered dumping them- it made everything muddy and muted. Image at the time kicked their butts. Starting in the mid 80s. DC was the first to use Baxter paper. And I'm pretty sure they were the first to move to Mando paper as well. And they started moving to a "better" printing system in '85. That's why the printing on the first few issues of Crisis is wonky as hell. Again this is just between DC and Marvel. The Indies were all over the board. I stopped buying floppies in 1999, so I got nothin' after that. And I didn't buy anything from Image until the Liefield/McFarlane era was over and they stopped sucking.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,187
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Post by Confessor on Oct 2, 2024 10:54:41 GMT -5
I think the coloring is the same, it's just the different between newsprint and glossy white paper. Yeah, this. I worked as a printer and a print finisher for roughly 10 years in the 1990s, and I can tell you that, for the most part, the colours in those reprints are roughly the same as they were in the originals, but it's the cheap, porous nature of newsprint that makes the colours look more muted in the originals. The question is, I suppose, whether the colours in modern reprints -- which are printed on higher quality paper (and in a lot of instances glossier paper too) -- should accurately reflect the original experience of reading these comics on newsprint? That's probably very much a personal choice for old, long-term readers like us. But for newer readers, I think the brighter colours of modern reprints look more like the comics that they've been reading since the late '90s or thereabouts. Anyway, one thing is for sure, the colouring of the Marvel reprints since the '90s doesn't seem to have hurt sales, so you have to assume that most readers or collectors like it. Myself, I'm sort of ambivalent about it all. I grew up with newsprint comics in the late '70s and 1980s, so I naturally really like reading comics like that, with their more muted colours. There's a nostalgia factor in that and I also like the historical authenticity of seeing the way that the colours look in old comics, but that's the armchair historian in me talking. However, I also own a good few Masterworks, Omnibuses, and Epic collections, and I'm perfectly happy to read old comics in those, even with their much brighter colours. I guess it's just not that big an issue for me either way. EDIT: Edited to say that speaking as someone who makes his living from writing, recording, and playing music, as well as being an avid record collector, analogue "warmth" is absolutely a real thing. I love digital formats like CD too, but there is definitely some music -- almost always pre-digital era music -- that absolutely sounds much better on a decent vinyl pressing played on a decent record player/hi-fi set up. Plus, as supercat points out, if we're talking about guitar amps, it's definitely preferrable to use tube-powered amplifiers, rather than ones with solid-state circuitry. Same goes for tube-driven hi-fi amplifiers, actually.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 11:07:28 GMT -5
For what it's worth, the surviving colourists that worked on the original books, that have been asked about the issue, universally dislike seeing their colours look so wrong in reprints. Some have even offered their services to adjust the colours for modern reprints, to no avail.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 11:17:36 GMT -5
. Anyway, one thing is for sure, the colouring of the Marvel reprints since the '90s doesn't seem to have hurt sales, so you have to assume that most readers or collectors like it. I would suspect that 99% are unaware of how much the modern reprints spoil the look and mood of the comics until they do a side by side comparison. I spent years thinking that 60s Marvel art just wasn't very good, for example, only to discover I liked it a lot when I bought some originals! I recall the first eye opening moment I had- the Frank Miller Daredevil reprints, #168-181 most specifically. The colouring looked crappy and flat, and garish and plastic, to me and didn't seem to fit the mood of the story. I compared it to the original comics. The art looked waaaay more somber, and very grown up, especially once Janson began colouring. (Also, Miller's art was frequently designed to match left page to right page, with repeated layouts- in the reprints Marvel shat on that and had it out of synch, further spoiling the storytelling. 😡 )
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2024 11:23:25 GMT -5
I would suspect that 99% are unaware of how much the modern reprints spoil the look and mood of the comics until they do a side by side comparison.
In quite a number of instances, people who buy current Hardcovers don't have the originals so they'd be completely indifferent to it. Like the schoolboys who own virtually no comics prior to 2000 but pick up current Omnibus.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 11:24:14 GMT -5
I didn't realise DC had a period of using better paper or tech than Marvel- when was that? I remember around 1997 some of their comics used nice paper, but by 2000 some used such bad paper I considered dumping them- it made everything muddy and muted. Image at the time kicked their butts. Starting in the mid 80s. DC was the first to use Baxter paper. And I'm pretty sure they were the first to move to Mando paper as well. And they started moving to a "better" printing system in '85. That's why the printing on the first few issues of Crisis is wonky as hell. Again this is just between DC and Marvel. The Indies were all over the board. I stopped buying floppies in 1999, so I got nothin' after that. And I didn't buy anything from Image until the Liefield/McFarlane era was over and they stopped sucking. Ah, yes, I do have the odd nicer looking 80s DC comic, along with many with bad paper/printing. Some Marvel printed really badly, but tended not to have such cheap/poor separations? I don't know how long that issue lasted with the colouring. I outlasted you by 2 years on the floppies, by the way. 2001 was the year I packed that in.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 11:28:02 GMT -5
I would suspect that 99% are unaware of how much the modern reprints spoil the look and mood of the comics until they do a side by side comparison.
In quite a number of instances, people who buy current Hardcovers don't have the originals so they'd be completely indifferent to it. Like the schoolboys who own virtually no comics prior to 2000 but pick up current Omnibus.
Exactly my point. Until you see it, you won't know. However, there's lot of creators that bring it up now, when they whinge about the state of reprint colours, and a cursory Google will bring up hundreds of side by side examples. Taschen and IDW and Dark Horse and various others, and even DC now, are reprinting more faithfully and shining a bright light on the differences- and getting critical acclaim and public praise for it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 2, 2024 12:03:21 GMT -5
"And another thing..." (old man rant haha) If it was just the paper, then why in my Spidey example did Taschen have to do all that restoration work to the coloring itself? Got to be more than paper mojo going on here even though I'm sure that adds to the equation. Taschen is a prestige publishing house, built around collections of cultural art, rather than publishing stories. They are more concerned with the best visual representation, on the best paper, while still making it accessible to an audience that doesn't earn 6 figures. Benedikt Taschen started the company to make art and photography books more accessible to middle income enthusiasts; but, while maintaining a standard of quality. Over the past few decades, they branched out into special gimmick publications, like Helmut Newton's Sumo (a massive coffee table collection of his photography, that came with a metal stand, to hold it, making it a literal coffee table book) and the Ali book, GOAT (also massive). They also publish books on pop culture topics, both "mainstream" and more specialized, like advertising art or men's magazines and the like (including both adventure material and skin magazines). Marvel is publishing stories and is more interested in selling the collected stories, in the best format they can, that a micro-audience will support. Could they have better color? Sure. Would it drive the price up more? Probably. Could they improve while maintaining economies of scale? Probably. Is the audience big enough and demanding enough to force a change? Not likely. I see similar arguments about audio products and video products. To the afficionado, there are significant differences; to a lot of us "civilians," it's perfectly fine and not that noticeably different enough to fork over the higher price. I grew up with black & white, grainy tv, scratchy records, cassette tapes that got chewed in the player, and VHS with damaged tapes from a video store. If the story is good and the reproduction is good enough, I am satisfied. I think you will find that most who buy these omnibus volumes are more happy to have the stories, than carp over the reprint details, unless there is a major divergence. Also, having worked at a printing company for 8 years, paper does make a difference, at a basic level, but so does the original intent in the creative process. Comics were made, technically, for newsprint, for generations, with the inherent flaws and methods developed to compensate for them. As white papers were introduced things changed, including color processes. I constantly have to explain to art students why their projects look one way on a computer monitor and another on paper, especially mid-grade paper. It's more than just the image, it's the media for display. Quality costs money; and, with a niche market, you can only milk your audience for so much of it.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 12:18:00 GMT -5
"And another thing..." (old man rant haha) If it was just the paper, then why in my Spidey example did Taschen have to do all that restoration work to the coloring itself? Got to be more than paper mojo going on here even though I'm sure that adds to the equation. Taschen is a prestige publishing house, built around collections of cultural art, rather than publishing stories. They are more concerned with the best visual representation, on the best paper, while still making it accessible to an audience that doesn't earn 6 figures. Benedikt Taschen started the company to make art and photography books more accessible to middle income enthusiasts; but, while maintaining a standard of quality. Over the past few decades, they branched out into special gimmick publications, like Helmut Newton's Sumo (a massive coffee table collection of his photography, that came with a metal stand, to hold it, making it a literal coffee table book) and the Ali book, GOAT (also massive). They also publish books on pop culture topics, both "mainstream" and more specialized, like advertising art or men's magazines and the like (including both adventure material and skin magazines). Marvel is publishing stories and is more interested in selling the collected stories, in the best format they can, that a micro-audience will support. Could they have better color? Sure. Would it drive the price up more? Probably. Could they improve while maintaining economies of scale? Probably. Is the audience big enough and demanding enough to force a change? Not likely. I see similar arguments about audio products and video products. To the afficionado, there are significant differences; to a lot of us "civilians," it's perfectly fine and not that noticeably different enough to fork over the higher price. I grew up with black & white, grainy tv, scratchy records, cassette tapes that got chewed in the player, and VHS with damaged tapes from a video store. If the story is good and the reproduction is good enough, I am satisfied. I think you will find that most who buy these omnibus volumes are more happy to have the stories, than carp over the reprint details, unless there is a major divergence. Also, having worked at a printing company for 8 years, paper does make a difference, at a basic level, but so does the original intent in the creative process. Comics were made, technically, for newsprint, for generations, with the inherent flaws and methods developed to compensate for them. As white papers were introduced things changed, including color processes. I constantly have to explain to art students why their projects look one way on a computer monitor and another on paper, especially mid-grade paper. It's more than just the image, it's the media for display. Quality costs money; and, with a niche market, you can only milk your audience for so much of it. According to some of the actual colourists, the garish colours rather than faithful colours is a style preference at Marvel much more than a cost cutting measure. Using their practice of hiring folks on minimum wage to do the job with faithful colours rather than colour code garish colours would have cost $0 more. Of course, a Taschen or Folio Society level job would require hiring a proper colourist to do the work. That's still not too pricey, though.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 2, 2024 12:19:00 GMT -5
Maybe that's the difference... I don't have alot of silver age originals... I have a few here and there, but for the most part my collection starts in the Bronze age (I didn't start buying comics until I had my own money in the early 90s).
Art is 100% subjective, and you are certainly allowed not to like the colors. I personally find them to be a nice, inexpensive alternative to read stories I wouldn't be able to otherwise have access to.
I have quite a few Essentials/Showcase volumes as well in black and white, which works really well for some things, but for others the color can be missed for sure.
Ultimately, though, what anyone would prefer is irrelevant, it's what do you BUY. The Epics are pretty good sellers it seems, so while perhaps there are legions of fans out there that would like more muted colors, either a) they are willing to buy what's produced or b) there aren't enough out there to warrant their production.
Price point and ease of reading are more important to me than how bright the colors are.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 2, 2024 12:28:13 GMT -5
Sometimes, for sure! I LOVE Tomb of Dracula in black and white, as well as some Savage Sword of Conan collections (some of that was probably black and white originally, of course). Jonah Hex is pretty great too. Even some of the client Marvel silver age stuff is pretty good, like Spidey. Kirby in black and white is OK, but definitely not as good.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 12:35:29 GMT -5
Sometimes, for sure! I LOVE Tomb of Dracula in black and white, as well as some Savage Sword of Conan collections (some of that was probably black and white originally, of course). Jonah Hex is pretty great too. Even some of the client Marvel silver age stuff is pretty good, like Spidey. Kirby in black and white is OK, but definitely not as good. I'm glad someone mentioned Tomb of Dracula- even though I own the originals I still purchased the Essential B&W trades. I love Colan and Palmer's art- Colan never looked better than inked by the masterful Palmer, and I think he knew this and upped his game because of it. I discovered he disliked Palmer's use of zip-a-tone, but I loved that. Overall I probably like ToD even better in the original colouring, but still, it had to be seen in original line art form too... now THAT book I'd hate to see in a garish reprint!! Fully agree Kirby looks better in colour, by the way. Edit: I should have mentioned they're the only Essential trades I own, as usually I like colour on books intended to be coloured.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 13:29:43 GMT -5
Ok, now in the spirit of keeping this topic fun, anybody want to "confess" if they initially noticed the coloring differences when they first started buying stuff like the Masterworks? I first started picking them up probably in the late 90's along with DC Archives. And NO, I did not haha. But when I first read something online about it and started to compare myself, it was like "oh (censored), yeah, I can totally see that". So in fairness, it didn't "blind me" to start reading them, but it became more of now that I'm aware, I can't help but notice. Yeah, totally, I had no idea the colour was different to the originals, but I always disliked the colour, even as a young teen! I still bought and enjoyed a bunch of old trades, but the colour always really put me off. I was obsessed with colouring as a child and contemplated trying to do it professionally when I was a teen. I think I was always sensitive to colouring as I grew up with Marvel UK comics on better paper and a more advanced printing process than their US counterparts. Even at about 6 years old I would choose Marvel UK comics over the US ones I could buy from a shop that opened up next to my school. (Plus the US ones cost more). When Marvel UK reprinted Marvel US strips the colour was always sooo much uglier on the glossier UK paper.
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Post by rich on Oct 2, 2024 13:41:04 GMT -5
That's probably very much a personal choice for old, long-term readers like us. But for newer readers, I think the brighter colours of modern reprints look more like the comics that they've been reading since the late '90s or thereabouts. Anyway, one thing is for sure, the colouring of the Marvel reprints since the '90s doesn't seem to have hurt sales, so you have to assume that most readers or collectors like it. I suspect a number of us older readers "take what we can get", the fact that the Masterworks coloring has been complained about so many times on the Internet for years and years suggests it's not a trivial issue. But at the same time, what are we going to do, not read absolutely classic material that we can't easily access in other ways because the coloring is "off"? I own 135 Masterworks at present, along with about 100 Epic Collections and 65 DC Archive Editions. They are not "perfect", but they are an absolute joy still since when I was a kid I couldn't have remotely imagined having access to this much classic material. But if you could make them look like that Taschen Spidey volume I mentioned? Oh heck yes, that would be the icing on the cake. I've still enjoyed loads of collected editions- maybe not quite as many as you, but a lot- despite the faults. Yes, many have crap colouring, many have cheap crappy binding and don't lie flat, every Omnibus is annoyingly heavy, etc, but I can get enjoyment from them. For 20 years I've been at a point where I own so much that I've not yet read that I can now be pickier and focus on well bound premium books. DC's Absolutes, for example. I have lots of Taschen books at this point, most not comics related. Have you also seen the Folio Society's Marvel reprint books, supercat ? You'd like them I suspect!!
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