|
Post by earl on Sept 18, 2020 1:24:56 GMT -5
That first Star Wars prequel is so bad. Company I was working for rented a theater when "Episode 1" came out and gave us a free early viewing and I have never seen an audience go from being so psyched to see something to leaving completely deflated 'wow, that was not good'. I never saw the other two.
I've seen "Episode 5", "Rogue One" and "Solo". Solo seems to be not all that popular, but I thought it was a best of the lot. Rogue One was almost as good too. Ep1 and Ep5 seemed like they never really had a story and was still figuring it out way into the shooting of the pictures.
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Sept 18, 2020 8:32:40 GMT -5
Ep5 as in Empire Strikes Back didn't have a story? WHA?!
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Sept 18, 2020 9:38:05 GMT -5
{Rogue One spoiler}
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 23:37:10 GMT -5
Too soon.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 7:28:44 GMT -5
John Byrne’s Man of Steel mini-series is still my definitive Superman origin. I don’t think it’s been topped, nor should they have ever tried.
There, I said it.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,555
Member is Online
|
Post by Confessor on Sept 19, 2020 11:40:19 GMT -5
John Byrne’s Man of Steel mini-series is still my definitive Superman origin. I don’t think it’s been topped, nor should they have ever tried. There, I said it. Funny, I was thinking about this just this morning in the shower. As you do. Man of Steel was a really great Superman origin and is definitely more detailed and focused that the origin was back in the Golden Age, not least because Superman's powers and origin evolved organically over a number of years back then. Byrne had the benefit of seeing what other creators had done before him and taking that and fashioning it into a much more cohesive and definitive origin story. On an attendant matter, I think that when long-term DC fans complain about Crisis on Infinite Earths as being unnecessary (which I'm quite prepared to accept it was), they are forgetting that Crisis probably brought on board a whole lot of new readers of around my age for DC. I mean, I had sporadically bought some pre-Crisis Batman and Superman comics, but both Batman: Year One and Byrne's Man of Steel mini-series ignited my desire to collect each series on a regular basis. For a good year or two afterwards, I was buying Batman, Detective Comics, Action Comics, The Adventures of Superman, and Byrne's Superman title as regularly as distribution would allow. Without the reboot, I'm not sure that would've been the case.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 11:46:26 GMT -5
Good point (all of it, but particularly your last sentence).
I have to say, Confessor, there was one thing I found a tad peculiar about pre-Crisis Superman (yes, I was a pedantic fool even as a kid) - and that was him using Kryptonian phrases such as, “Great Rao.” I suppose I thought about it more as I got older, but it made no sense. Byrne’s Superman acknowledged that he felt more like an earthman due to being raised in the United States. I think he had a slight interest in his heritage, but not to the extent where he used Kryptonian phrases or pined over Krypton.
I suppose the analogy I would use would be if I’d left the UK as a baby - and been raised in the United States. I might have some interest in my heritage, but I’d have an American mindset. I doubt I’d utter British phrases so readily.
So I definitely liked the emphasis on the MAN in Byrne’s Superman.
And, yes, how many jumped on board those titles you mentioned because of Crisis?
|
|
|
Post by brutalis on Sept 19, 2020 12:26:47 GMT -5
I can verify and testify that there were several "stunt" moments that brought in "new" readers. There were 2 types: investor for resale that could care less in reading or following a series/character and only looking for a big cash payoff down the line and never read comics before but interest was derived from news/articles/television, so they jumped on board if only for a very short while. The other was actual folks that never read comics until they became aware from all the hype on television and news or magazine articles.
Byrne's Superman reboot, Crisis, Death of Superman and Death of Batman all delivered new readers. I had adults and friends and family who used to laughed at me in reading and collecting comics, and yet suddenly they all wanted me to grab multiple copies for them. Investment money seekers is the Key point here as they wanted ME to buy them copies. NONE offered me cash up front for getting them copies and ALL were too lazy for going to an LCS to get copies of their own. Suffice to say, I did NOT buy more than single copies for myself, but let the leeches/barracuda fend for themselves.
The others who were actually interested for these jumping on points I gladly took them to my LCS so they could get issues. These were teens and adults I worked with at the time in a Physical Therapy office. Most did buy and read through the storyline only for stopping after. One of the Therapists did actually become a collector from this. He was so enthralled he began shopping online and at other LCS picking up issues and/or series he enjoyed. He became a big Batfan and we would buy comics as birthday and Christmas gifts for each other for several years after.
So as noted, these big moments only really brought in new readers for the short term with occasionally a few new fans. MY LCS owner/friend at the time was grateful for all the money coming in and attention that it brought to his shop. He and the shop had their moment of fame for several years as he was the local go to guy for comic news segments and articles but he admits dealing with the investors seeking quick profits and big turnaround became a major pain.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Sept 19, 2020 13:33:47 GMT -5
I missed the Man Of Steel title which introduced the new Byrne Superman, but I did get the first few issues of each regular title, and Wonder Woman #1, I'm sure there were people who started reading WW with that new Perez-drawn version. I saw/borrowed some kind of Batman:Year One but didn't get into it. I was just basically out the door on all super people comics generally at the time. Would Todd McFarlane on Spider-Man have been a similar gateway to new readers for Marvel? It seems like it was from what I remember of the time, but it/he may've gotten more publicity as he was from around where I am. I saw him get hired for, I think, Infinity Inc. by Dick Giordano before that, and saw Erik Larsen who I thought the better artist get some kind of critique on Fantastic Four pages from same. The big hypes of the 'history' making Secret Wars and Crisis rubbed me the wrong way but I can accept they were the entry points for others. I was getting really tired of the heroines getting cancelled, maimed or killed as I've written various times about before. I bet they lost a big chunk of female readers then and that you would see fewer letters from females in the letters pages afterward. I was happy Jean Grey came back before I had entirely quit bothering to look and others say that was the worst thing that ever happened, one small bit saved from the scrap yard anyway I say.
By the time the muscles and everything else got more extreme the whole thing was alien terrain, and the kind of comic shops I knew had become replaced by rather dark places a small group of friends lived in with insanely grinning muscle characters in the window. The first shops I'd frequented were brighter, had some D&D stuff, undergrounds, fantasy posters, sf paperbacks, art books, comic strip collections, a pinball machine... they'd give regulars the promo posters and news handouts instead of say trying to sell them as valuable rarities... some more like the earlier shops, brighter, welcoming, came back with trading cards and toys, so things did get better. I'm finding the late '90s and early '00s comics from both Marvel & DC to be more like what I wanted, although sometimes the computer coloring and lettering isn't the best, and X-Men: The Hidden Years (that Byrne guy again) was my entry point.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 13:56:10 GMT -5
John Byrne’s Man of Steel mini-series is still my definitive Superman origin. I don’t think it’s been topped, nor should they have ever tried. There, I said it. As a long time reader (54 yrs) I can say Byrne's Man of Steel really fired up the readers. I was working in a comic store then and it did get a lot of attention. I agree it was darn near perfect. I do wish he had left time spent as Superboy in the reboot as well as Kara being his cousin. Otherwise I liked it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 14:18:29 GMT -5
John Byrne’s Man of Steel mini-series is still my definitive Superman origin. I don’t think it’s been topped, nor should they have ever tried. There, I said it. I am also A big fan of Byrne's 1990 Namor series. Loved the first 25 issues. And his FF will always be a classic IMO.
|
|
|
Post by Prince Hal on Sept 19, 2020 14:25:02 GMT -5
Good point (all of it, but particularly your last sentence). I have to say, Confessor, there was one thing I found a tad peculiar about pre-Crisis Superman (yes, I was a pedantic fool even as a kid) - and that was him using Kryptonian phrases such as, “Great Rao.” I suppose I thought about it more as I got older, but it made no sense. Byrne’s Superman acknowledged that he felt more like an earthman due to being raised in the United States. I think he had a slight interest in his heritage, but not to the extent where he used Kryptonian phrases or pined over Krypton. I suppose the analogy I would use would be if I’d left the UK as a baby - and been raised in the United States. I might have some interest in my heritage, but I’d have an American mindset. I doubt I’d utter British phrases so readily. You're not really being pedantic here, or at least I don't think you are, because otherwise, I wouldn't be offering a possible reason for all those "Great Raos!" I will admit that they could be jarring at times, but Superman had occasionally used expressions like those in the pre-Crisis era (I'm going to say starting with Denny O'Neil's run and the World of Krypton back-up stories), but I always chalked it up to Superman's vast knowledge of all things Kryptonian. He studies his past and Krypton's with all the fancy Absorbatrons in his Fortress, and was simply grafting some aspects of his culture into his language, much as we might retain an old expression our parents used back in the day as a link to what is nearly gone. I still use "copacetic," for instance, and there are New Englanders who still call soda "tonic," and the liquor store "the packie," despite the tidal wave of homogenized language that overwhelms the culture daily. Here on the Cape, people often say, "So didn't I" in response to a statement instead of "So did I." (Actually it should be "As did I, " but to note that would really identify me as a pedant in full.) I think Supes just wanted to keep Krypton alive in some small way to remind himself and others that no matter how Earthy he seemed, he was still a Kryptonian at heart. Though the Phantom Zoners would probably consider him a crypto-Kryptonian at best.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 15:49:22 GMT -5
You could be right. I remember a wrestler (from Lithuania) who wanted his weight to be described in kilos rather than pounds. He mentioned how it was a “piece of home” for him while wrestling in the United States.
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 19, 2020 18:44:15 GMT -5
Maybe teenage Kal was doing what so many people are doing at that age, and that's looking for a special identity.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Sept 19, 2020 19:40:20 GMT -5
I like Man of Steel; but, from an emotional standpoint, I think Elliot Maggin nailed the origin, in Last Son of Krypton. He does the escape from Krypton, and describes Jor-El racing the clock to get the rocket ready, and tells Lara to get in with baby Kal. She refuses, one person can barely fit in it and the baby will have a better chance without her. Jor continues to try to get her to obey but she won't budge. They launch the rocket with their child, in desperate hopes that he might survive, as they are about to perish. Then it gets really good.
Jor-El didn't just shoot his child off into space and trust luck to protect him. His technology sends a message to the greatest mind on the habitable planet that will offer Kal-El the best chance for survival. That mind belonged to Albert Einstein, who was at Princeton. He sneaks away from his minders and takes a bus tot he Midwest, where he comes across an older couple, a farmer and his wife, who seem like good, honest, solid people. With the aid of a police officer, he sets in motion a complicated plan to put the Kents in the right place, at the right time, by making them believe he has a tractor to sell for less than they would pay new. He arranges for them to go out to his farm, where they will encounter a rocket, as it crash lands on Earth, with a baby inside; a baby that they will adopt and raise to be the greatest protector the Universe has ever known.
The whole story is ultimately about why Einstein chose the Kents, when Jor-El chose him and why the Kents were the best possible choice. There is a maguffin of a document, written by Einstein, sealed away in a vault, in Princeton, which Luthor steals. This leads to an alien conqueror coming to Earth, Superman having to team up with Lex to retrieve Einstein's document, and a message to Superman, from Einstein. It gets to the heart of being an orphan and a sole survivor and what special people the Kents were, whose steadfast principles, common sense and belief in justice shaped the star child, Kal-El, into Clark Kent, the man, and Superman, the hero.
Man of Steel was exciting stuff, though I questioned some changes and subsequent stories, as to whether they worked or were necessary. Byrne kept it lively; but, I felt it really didn't come alive until people aside from Byrne started developing Clark more, his relationship with friends and colleagues and moved beyond those first couple of years. By the point they were doing his sleepwalking incident and exile, I thought they had nailed things, with mature, action packed stories, with more epic plots. To me, the peak of that series is that run from the Gangbuster imposter storyline and exile to space, up to Panic in the Sky. There are a few missteps in there; but, overall, those are some really great comics. To me, Doomsday was an anti-climax and the Return was predictable. World Without a Superman was the best section of that stuff, for my money/
|
|