|
Post by Duragizer on Aug 5, 2020 0:19:01 GMT -5
The Punisher is one of the few old school "heroes" who looks better in a modern realistic outfit than his classic costume.
There, I said it.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Aug 5, 2020 9:53:08 GMT -5
The Punisher is one of the few old school "heroes" who looks better in a modern realistic outfit than his classic costume. There, I said it. What ever do you mean? What's not to like about a killer vigilante running around in black spandex, white rain boots and a cartoon skull on his shirt?
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Aug 5, 2020 10:16:37 GMT -5
There is nothing "heroic" about a gun-toting vigilante who commits cold-blooded murder, criminal or not. Adding SS imagery doesn't help.
There I said it!
This is what I really hated about the trend to grim and gritty, in the late 80s and early-mid 90s. The Punisher was created as an enemy for Spider-Man, who was a swipe of Mack Bolan, the Executioner. Bolan was a reactionary adventure character, created to appeal to a rather conservative audience who hated hippies and war protesters and thought the answer to rising crime was gunning people down in the streets, rather than looking to economic and social conditions. When the Punisher was used as an antagonist, a darker reflection of costumed vigilantism, it worked. When he suddenly became a "hero" and is starring in his own series, slaughtering hordes of criminals and appearing on covers that made the editors of Guns & Ammo go weak in the knees, it was clear that someone had lost the plot. I hated that crap, when I'd see it on the stands and I had been immersed in the Bolan books, through high school. I read Scout and Airboy; but, the difference there was that the characters were usually defending themselves from cold-blooded murder, rather than committing it. There was a greater complexity to the characters, especially Scout. It was kind of ironic, I suppose, that Chuck Dixon, the main voice on Airboy, ended up writing the Punisher. Then again, it fit his political viewpoint a bit more than Airboy, where Tim Truman's politics (and cat yronwode's) kind of created more of a middle ground.
|
|
|
Post by Batflunkie on Aug 5, 2020 10:33:15 GMT -5
There is nothing "heroic" about a gun-toting vigilante who commits cold-blooded murder, criminal or not. Adding SS imagery doesn't help. There I said it! This is what I really hated about the trend to grim and gritty, in the late 80s and early-mid 90s. The Punisher was created as an enemy for Spider-Man, who was a swipe of Mack Bolan, the Executioner. Bolan was a reactionary adventure character, created to appeal to a rather conservative audience who hated hippies and war protesters and thought the answer to rising crime was gunning people down in the streets, rather than looking to economic and social conditions. When the Punisher was used as an antagonist, a darker reflection of costumed vigilantism, it worked. When he suddenly became a "hero" and is starring in his own series, slaughtering hordes of criminals and appearing on covers that made the editors of Guns & Ammo go weak in the knees, it was clear that someone had lost the plot. I hated that crap, when I'd see it on the stands and I had been immersed in the Bolan books, through high school. I read Scout and Airboy; but, the difference there was that the characters were usually defending themselves from cold-blooded murder, rather than committing it. There was a greater complexity to the characters, especially Scout. It was kind of ironic, I suppose, that Chuck Dixon, the main voice on Airboy, ended up writing the Punisher. Then again, it fit his political viewpoint a bit more than Airboy, where Tim Truman's politics (and cat yronwode's) kind of created more of a middle ground. I think Ennis' brand of black comedic lunacy suited Punisher quite well in the beginning with "Welcome Back Frank" before it got more tonally serious with the MAX rebranding. Like I've said before, think Punisher reads better if you make it slightly absurd like Space Punisher and Punisher 2099
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Aug 5, 2020 11:19:51 GMT -5
I think Ennis' brand of black comedic lunacy suited Punisher quite well in the beginning with "Welcome Back Frank" before it got more tonally serious with the MAX rebranding. Like I've said before, think Punisher reads better if you make it slightly absurd like Space Punisher and Punisher 2099 I thought the MAX version actually worked extremely well for what it was, which was a self-contained character firmly outside of the Marvel universe. Removes the dissonance trying to force a murderous vigilante into a "redeemable" role. In the MAX series, there no qualms that he was messed up, too, and not trying to be a hero.
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Aug 5, 2020 11:43:49 GMT -5
I never got into the "classic" Punisher, although I did like Ennis' take on him later. I own no Punisher comics outside of a couple of annuals that were part of cross-over events and the issue of Punisher War Journal that has the super-villian wake for Stilt-Man.
To me, the Punisher always worked best as the "villain" in books like Amazing Spider-Man, Captain America, and Daredevil, where the "real" heroes served as counterpoint to his wanton dealing of death and destruction. They felt they, due to their gifts and abilities, needed to work at and be held to a higher standard, while he was just a guy with a gun and some serious anger management issues.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Aug 5, 2020 11:54:36 GMT -5
See, that's the thing I struggled with between high school and college, and adult life after. In high school, I was a gun nut, military buff, and watched every action series and movie with gun play, which led me to the Bolan and company books, which were filled with gun fetishism (the later stuff, after Gold Eagle took over the series). By college, I was burnt out of Bolan et al, as they are rather repetitive and poorly sketched. I started reading other things, like the Modesty Blaise novels and more nuanced fiction. I also started expanding my horizons in comics, with more ideosyncratic comics and a wider range of storytelling, in the indies. My experiences through my ROTC training and subsequent military service also brought me far closer experience with danger (shipboard life is filled with hazards, as it is a floating industrial facility, filled with ammunition and explosives) and death, on a professional scale. I got as close to combat as I ever cared to and my outlook on a lot of subjects changed during that time. Gun toting vigilantism was one of those. I soon found that the nihilistic action films of the 80s were turning me off and the grim and gritty comics even more so. I find I can't sympathize with that mindset anymore, even when there is some justification. Movies like Death Wish, for me, even with the contextual justification, fly against what I came to feel. To me, Bronson is as big a psycho as Jeff Goldblum and the other punks who raped his daughter.
I could never understand anyone who sympathized with Alex, in A Clockwork Orange. I get the inhumane conditioning adds a layer of sympathy to him; but, since it is an artificial change, he has no redemption. To me, he is still the psychotic monster who rapes and murders. The people who idolize that film scare the @#$% out of me. I have similar reactions to even stuff like the Ennis Punisher. He may not give redeemable qualities; but, for me, that is all the more reason to avoid it. I don't begrudge anyone else wanting to read it; but, it's not for me, in any form. Most modern horror is the same way. I can watch the classic Universal stuff and similar fare, as there is a sympathy to the monsters, as they are often the victims of things. I can't stand slasher films and torture porn horror, or supernatural BS, unless it is the very rare thinking entity. Nothing against horror fans; just not my cup of tea. So, you could imagine what it was like on board ship, when we were at sea for extended periods of time and the bulk of the movies played over the ship's entertainment system were action and horror films. I brought a lot of books along with me, as my tastes and that of the average crewmember were vastly different. I didn't mind something like Terminator or Aliens, but we tended to have a lot of Seagal crap, with a lot of slasher films. Once in a while, you got something like Manhunter, with a bit more artistic merit to it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 12:38:12 GMT -5
To me, the Punisher always worked best as the "villain" in books like Amazing Spider-Man, Captain America, and Daredevil, where the "real" heroes served as counterpoint to his wanton dealing of death and destruction. They felt they, due to their gifts and abilities, needed to work at and be held to a higher standard, while he was just a guy with a gun and some serious anger management issues. This is how I feel. I think Rucka had a run that, at least for a bit, featured Spidey and DD heavily and I enjoyed it. But as a rule, my tolerance for Punisher (and similar types of stories) is directly related to how far it's removed from actual superheroes. And I think that feeling has gotten stronger lately, as the world makes me yearn even more for escapism. Now more than ever, when I turn to the Big 2 it's for that clear good vs bad, with little grey area.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Aug 5, 2020 12:53:25 GMT -5
If you are into video games at all and want a clear good versus evil, it would be a great time to play through the old Batman Arkham Asylum and Arkham City games. Storytelling and voices from the animated series and they nail being Batman. Good escapist superhero fun.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 12:55:59 GMT -5
I actually just bought the Arkham games during a recent sale. I was maybe 2/3 through Asylum when I got pulled awat by Ghost of Tsushima. But, yes, it's very good and, at least Asylum, is how I prefer my Batman.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 5, 2020 12:56:23 GMT -5
All I know is I found comics embarrassing to be associated with when the guns and muscles started to multiply and get bigger to the point of absurdity. I read the '70s Punisher character as Bronson ala Deathwish; an absolutist good for throwing other characters into contrast. Maybe that started changing in that Daredevil drugs two-parter that was pulled and then finally allowed to appear? As a character in his own right Mister 'War Journal' was too 2-D obsessive to interest me enough although I had the first issue of the first mini-series to give it a try. You want to drive a lot of people away from comics go back to heroic slaughter type extreme guys written and drawn by the most inexperienced creative people, even worse villains with massive toothy leering grins, and broken spine posing helium boobed bimbos... and I'm sure a proliferation of cute funny animals doing the nasty titles doesn't help much either. Talk about a club you wouldn't particularly want to join! On the other paw... I have heard good things about that one Punisher and Archie crossover comic.
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Aug 5, 2020 13:19:24 GMT -5
Maybe that started changing in that Daredevil drugs two-parter that was pulled and then finally allowed to appear? Beginning in ASM #175, the Punisher was shown to use non-lethal "mercy bullets" (drugged capsules that left victims unconscious but alive) when appearing in books with heroes who do not kill. He continued to use lethal force in the magazine stories. He was still using "mercy bullets" in ASM #201-202. The Daredevil story followed not long after, so that may be the point that he returns to lethal force.
|
|
|
Post by impulse on Aug 5, 2020 13:28:13 GMT -5
I actually just bought the Arkham games during a recent sale. I was maybe 2/3 through Asylum when I got pulled awat by Ghost of Tsushima. But, yes, it's very good and, at least Asylum, is how I prefer my Batman. As far as atmosphere and scope, Asylum was by far my favorite. Tighter and more focused than the later games. Gives you enough to explore that it doesn't feel stifled yet avoids open world fatigue. The later games refine mechanics and other things, but they also open it up a lot more which I don't really enjoy as much. Still, they nail the difference of BECOMING Batman instead of just controlling him. I just rebought the remastered versions of Asylum and City on a sale and will probably play through again. I haven't played Asylum through again since it first came out, so wonder it holds up.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 13:44:16 GMT -5
I actually beat Asylum when it first came out (and played a very small bit of the next two), and to me it holds up better than I thought it would.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Aug 5, 2020 14:09:09 GMT -5
I'll take this guy.... and this one....
|
|