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Post by berkley on Sept 4, 2021 22:03:44 GMT -5
I wonder if the re-design came from Maroto all on his own or was there some direction from the writer or editors. Looks to me like it's trying more for something vaguely reminiscent of Gaiman's Sandman characters - Goth rather than biker chick. Looks better in black and white than in colour, but not an improvement on the classic.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 4, 2021 22:34:07 GMT -5
I kind of like this one, from Tom Artis, from Secret Origins #27..... It says "magician," without the blatant sexual overtones, paying tribute to her father, while having her own style about it. Tom Artis was a highly under-rated and appreciated artist; but, he was also his own worst enemy, professionally. Problems with deadlines kept him from getting much work from the Big Two, and he had health issues, in his own life. He lived in Springfield, IL, where i lived, post-military, for about 15 years, and I was acquainted with him, though i didn't really know him. I met him at a small local con and he came into Barnes & Noble, where i worked, periodically. He had a bit of the huckster around him, especially according to a local comic shop, that helped publish a single issue of his Black Terror comic, that had partially finished art in it. Still, talented artist and I liked his style, which had similarities to Doug Rice and guys like Ty Templeton, Mike Parobeck and Humberto Ramos. He was a little too early to be appreciated with that group and his professional problems didn't help his work get seen. He did have a short stint on The WEB, in DC's Impact line, with the MLJ/Archie heroes. His issues sold well and looked better than his replacement. he and Doug Rice were supposed to do a book, called Tiger Joe (I think that was it), at Image, but they got caught in the Image purge, when they dumped non-core creator books, after threats of penalties from Capital and Diamond. That killed Rice and Hilary Barta's Stupid comedy book and Mike Grell's Shaman's Tears, though that quickly got re-instated. I have a couple of Artis' sketchbook pages, that I bought off him, with designs from that series, including a character called "Doc Hypertrophy," as well as a female character. He seemed to like short hair on women and the character has a similar bob to how he drew Zatanna, in the Secret Origins story (believe he also drew her for Who's Who). ps That's Dr Mist, from the Global Guardians, being held captive, by Felix Faust. His origin appears in the book, alongside Zatara and Zatanna
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Post by foxley on Sept 5, 2021 2:58:04 GMT -5
Artis is one of those artists I never think too much about (not surprising given how small his output his), but I don't mind his stuff. He did a brief run on She-Hulk (about 4 issues from memory) after John Byrne left that I liked. And codystarbuck is right: Artis did the art for the entries for Zatanna, Felix Faust and Dr. Mist (all of whom feature prominently in that Secret Origins story) in Who's Who Update '88. Gray Morrow did the Zatanna art in the original Who's Who, which was slightly odd. Morrow was the artist most closely associated with Zee at the time, he used to draw her in her top hat and tails outfit, but for Who's Who he had to draw her in her JLA costume, and his style didn't really mesh with the superhero costume. I am a huge Zatanna fan, and I do prefer her top hat, tails and fishnets look, which Hope doesn't make me a fetishist. (I prefer the pumps over the boots if that helps. ) If I have to go for one of the other looks, it would be the George Perez designed JLA costume.
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Post by foxley on Sept 5, 2021 5:36:38 GMT -5
To illustrate what I meant, here is Morrow doing the top hat and tails: And here here is with the Justice League costume: Morrow's fine line technique can't just make it make it as sleek or elegant as Perez did.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 5, 2021 10:49:51 GMT -5
Artis is one of those artists I never think too much about (not surprising given how small his output his), but I don't mind his stuff. He did a brief run on She-Hulk (about 4 issues from memory) after John Byrne left that I liked. And codystarbuck is right: Artis did the art for the entries for Zatanna, Felix Faust and Dr. Mist (all of whom feature prominently in that Secret Origins story) in Who's Who Update '88. Gray Morrow did the Zatanna art in the original Who's Who, which was slightly odd. Morrow was the artist most closely associated with Zee at the time, he used to draw her in her top hat and tails outfit, but for Who's Who he had to draw her in her JLA costume, and his style didn't really mesh with the superhero costume. I am a huge Zatanna fan, and I do prefer her top hat, tails and fishnets look, which Hope doesn't make me a fetishist. (I prefer the pumps over the boots if that helps. ) If I have to go for one of the other looks, it would be the George Perez designed JLA costume. Depends on whether you read her stories or drool over them. I liked the classic look, since it both invoked her father and set her apart from most other super-heroes, since she really wasn't a super-hero. She was a performer who occasionally got involved in mysteries and adventure (kind of like the comic granddaddy of all this, Mandrake the Magician). Boots just look wrong with the tuxedo look, especially the stuff that's been done in recent yeas, which just says stripper, to me. Still, I think if they wanted to get away from the character being promoted on sex appeal, Artis' design is just about perfect (cape probably needs a re-think, looks vampirish). I always liked the superhero costume, but was always ambivalent to the idea of Zatanna doing a regular superhero gig. It was better when she was a special guest than a regular. Same for most series attempts with the character,. She definitely fell into the "special attraction" category, rather than "headliner."
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Post by badwolf on Sept 5, 2021 11:50:42 GMT -5
I think I first saw Zatanna with the "elvish" look (in the classic SSOSV switcheroo story) although I didn't know the story behind it until just recently. So that one's okay, but my favorite is the one she wore a bit later with the funky headpiece (George Perez creation?).
I've never had a fishnet fetish so the original never did anything for me. But I can see that it's in character as a "magic show[wo]man."
I like the Maroto, though maybe it's because he drew it. I'd love to get that miniseries.
One thing I've realized about Zatanna after reading the JLA bronze age omnibus is that she is a pain to read! I think I might have enjoyed the backwards words as a kid because it was kind of like a puzzle but now it's annoying. I also have a tendency to read right to left as well as backwards, which is not how they are written. Was there ever an explanation to why she has to say things backwards? Does she have to make an effort to sound the words backwards or does it come naturally to her? Can she do pretty much anything as long as she says it backwards? I realize this was probably invented as just a gimmick which we weren't meant to analyze but I need to know...
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Post by foxley on Sept 5, 2021 12:15:14 GMT -5
I think I first saw Zatanna with the "elvish" look (in the classic SSOSV switcheroo story) although I didn't know the story behind it until just recently. So that one's okay, but my favorite is the one she wore a bit later with the funky headpiece (George Perez creation?). I've never had a fishnet fetish so the original never did anything for me. But I can see that it's in character as a "magic show[wo]man." I like the Maroto, though maybe it's because he drew it. I'd love to get that miniseries. One thing I've realized about Zatanna after reading the JLA bronze age omnibus is that she is a pain to read! I think I might have enjoyed the backwards words as a kid because it was kind of like a puzzle but now it's annoying. I also have a tendency to read right to left as well as backwards, which is not how they are written. Was there ever an explanation to why she has to say things backwards? Does she have to make an effort to sound the words backwards or does it come naturally to her? Can she do pretty much anything as long as she says it backwards? I realize this was probably invented as just a gimmick which we weren't meant to analyze but I need to know... Well, it was her father's gimmick originally (although, like many things in Golden Age comics, it was not applied consistently). But when Zatara was eventually given an origin, it was explained that he (and hence Zatanna) were descended from Homo Magi a sub-species of humanity capable of naturally using magic. As Homo Magi interbreed with Homo Sapiens, many humans possess a gene enabling them to perform magic. Zatara first discovered his magical powers when reading the workbooks of his ancestor Leonardo Da Vinci, who wrote backwards.
Although it varies from writer to writer, the general consensus that is that magicians need some kind of focus to be able to work their spells. Zatanna and Zatara's is speaking backwards. Other magicians use things like speaking in rhyme, or physical foci such as wands.
As a side-note, Zatanna's magic is more powerful than her father's because her mother Sindella was a pure Homo Magi.
That's the gist of it.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 5, 2021 12:42:31 GMT -5
Here's a question. Does she say the words backwards or pronounce them as if written backwards. Take a word like "pretty. backwards it would sound something like tee-pret (not exactly, but you get the idea), but spelled backwards it's ytterp or yit-terp.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,415
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Post by shaxper on Sept 5, 2021 12:46:41 GMT -5
Here's a question. Does she say the words backwards or pronounce them as if written backwards. Take a word like "pretty. backwards it would sound something like tee-pret (not exactly, but you get the idea), but spelled backwards it's ytterp or yit-terp. While writers just write it backwards because it's easier for them and for the reader, I imagine that it would be the phonetic sound backwards in real life. Besides, real magic (or at least the closest thing to real magic that is known to have existed in the real world) depends upon the invocation of god names, which would have no "official" English translation/spelling.
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Post by foxley on Sept 5, 2021 13:05:51 GMT -5
Here's a question. Does she say the words backwards or pronounce them as if written backwards. Take a word like "pretty. backwards it would sound something like tee-pret (not exactly, but you get the idea), but spelled backwards it's ytterp or yit-terp. Most adaptions have used the phonetic pronunciation of the words written backwards, although Young Justice reversed the recording of the actress saying the words normally.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 5, 2021 13:26:48 GMT -5
I guess it depends how it works. Is part of her magic being able to say words as if they are reverse recordings? Because that is practically impossible for regular folk. But reading them backwards is doable. And with practice, I bet you could see the backwards words in your head.
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Post by chadwilliam on Sept 5, 2021 13:43:00 GMT -5
I remember listening to the commentary for the Red Dwarf episode Backwards in which a lot of dialogue was recorded frontwards and then played in reverse. It was pointed out that, for some reason, many (if not most or even all) of the words sounded nothing like what you'd expect them to too backwards. 'Beer' became 'Er-Skip'.
In comics? Letter pages did from time to time reveal that the proper way to pronounce Mxyzptlk in reverse is 'Kilt-Pix-Yixim' and I don't remember Superman ever commenting "How the Hell do I get this imp to say his name backwards if it isn't pronounced the way it's written in reverse?!"
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Post by badwolf on Sept 5, 2021 15:07:35 GMT -5
I like the idea of it sounding like a recording played backwards. Seems more "magical" that way.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 5, 2021 16:39:37 GMT -5
It really is a concept that is built for comics. The reader can see what she says in the word balloons (reading them backwards of course.) In live action or cartoons, we either need an explanation of what she said, which is burdensome exposition, or we have to figure it out by the action that follows. I notice in the cartoons she does the backward spelling thing and not the reverse talking.
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Post by foxley on Sept 6, 2021 2:39:50 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I don't think Zatanna can be doing the 'reverse talking' thing. In #16 of her 2010 series, she fights a villain called Backslash who can briefly rewind time, and who keeps rewinding her as she speaks her spells, causing her words to come out forwards. She eventually defeats him by speaking her spells in palindromes, so that even if he rewinds her, they come out the same. This strategy could only work if the casting is based on spelling rather than pronunciation. (And can I just say again how much I appreciate this forum, where I can write something as geeky as this and not only have tolerated, but know that some folk might even find it interesting? )
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