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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 17, 2021 12:26:42 GMT -5
Sadly, such a portrayal wouldn't have stricken me as odd since it's become commonplace to reduce villains in the manner Doom was depicted but for the fact that Mark Waid was the one penning the story. Waid is an odd writer to me since he often speaks glowingly of the Silver Age of comics but often aims for an even darker, more cynical take on superheroes than what you tend to find with writers more rooted in the Modern era. At least, that's my observation on his relationship with DC. Just wondered if the same held true for Marvel (or, at least, one particular character).
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 17, 2021 12:48:08 GMT -5
Sadly, such a portrayal wouldn't have stricken me as odd since it's become commonplace to reduce villains in the manner Doom was depicted but for the fact that Mark Waid was the one penning the story. Waid is an odd writer to me since he often speaks glowingly of the Silver Age of comics but often aims for an even darker, more cynical take on superheroes than what you tend to find with writers more rooted in the Modern era. At least, that's my observation on his relationship with DC. Just wondered if the same held true for Marvel (or, at least, one particular character). In the case of Doom, definitely. I wasn't taken aback by Doom's turn to absolute villainy; the character had been ambiguous enough over the years for such a change in attitude to be at least possible. Waid just decided to play his cards a certain way. What I didn't like, though, as someone who likes Doom as a character, is that there should have been no turning back for him after what Waid had him do. It was really a "Anakin starts slaughtering babies" moment. No way Viktor should have been able to ever play the ambiguous bad guy/honourable foe again; he threw honour right out the window and damned himself in a last gamble for power. (It would have been suitable as a Last Dr. Doom story type of thing, but of course... that's not how comics work!) That the Richards could ever interact with him after what he did is beyond me (unless it's to murder him in the most immediate and hopefully permanent way).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 12:57:44 GMT -5
Doom to me over the ages, whether the much more simplistic 60's characterizations, to later and more modern approaches to adding complexity to his character, is first and foremost a megalomaniac.
If he commits atrocities, it tends to be collateral damage for a lofty (though twisted) goal, or a rash reaction to a given affront, but not with an intent for cruelty in and of itself. He seems to check himself with "Doom does not stoop to such base acts" on an alternating basis with more violent actions. Like the whims/caprices of a god among men, he believes all are beneath him, and I think does see himself as nobility of the highest order, but with a crushing hand of control.
But yes, it's open to different forms of interpretation. There's probably an audience for "sadistic monster Doom", even though I can't recognize the character like that personally.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 17, 2021 13:07:41 GMT -5
Thank you, chadwilliam and supercat (aka Streaky). Doom is a comic book variation of Milton's Satan and Captain Ahab, not of Ed Gein or Adolph Hitler. Make up your own damned stereotypical psycho-sadistic-violence-porn villain rather than violating an already established character. Not that I'd be interested in reading about that character myself. And I'm someone who enjoyed "Dexter," (Though I have to admit, the first three seasons more than the final ones) so...
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 17, 2021 14:00:42 GMT -5
Thank you, chadwilliam and supercat (aka Streaky). Doom is a comic book variation of Milton's Satan and Captain Ahab, not of Ed Gein or Adolph Hitler. Make up your own damned stereotypical psycho-sadistic-violence-porn villain rather than violating an already established character. Not that I'd be interested in reading about that character myself. And I'm someone who enjoyed "Dexter," (Though I have to admit, the first three seasons more than the final ones) so... My favourite take on Doom was in What if Dr. Doom had been a hero? (Issue #17, if I recall correctly). Despite a lucky turn of events that prevents his being disfigured, and despite his allegedly heroic acts later on when he returns to Latveria to free his people, he remains an arrogant and self-centered individual, the epitome of hubris. He didn't even need his hatred of Reed Richards to drive him; he was what he is right from the start. What if..? was such a great comic when it began. It was much more than just a book about "imaginary stories"; it was an opportunity to really delve into the characters' souls.
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Post by tonebone on Jun 17, 2021 15:33:40 GMT -5
Question about Doctor Doom - During his run some twenty years back, Mark Waid presented Doom during his not as a sort of "noble dictator" but as a monster who would "tear the head off a newborn baby and eat it like an apple while his mother watched if it would somehow prove he's smarter than Reed." As someone who can't honestly say he's read enough Doctor Doom stories to know whether or not history would support Waid's claim, I'll ask everyone here - is Waid's assessment right? Chucking The Baxter Building into space, trying to steal the power of The Beyonder or simply Blackbeard's treasure, world domination - sure, these are the things I can see Doom accomplishing/attempting, but Waid's assertion that his Doom was perfectly in keeping with what had come before (I believe he stated that he could list ten things off the top of his head that is worse than the things he did in his run) has me wondering if this is really the case. Flaying his childhood girlfriend alive seemed a bit... out of character to me, but hey, I haven't read a lot of Fantastic Four. Am I wrong? Just how evil is Doom? Did Waid take things overboard or was he simply continuing a tradition which a layman such as myself may be unaware of? I can't speak to Waid's motivation; but, Waid can be...................................................... .....................hard to understand....................according to some who have known and worked with him. It is quite possible that he saw that element there and Doom is capricious, in many earlier stories. These things are always open to interpretation, just as so many see Captain America representing their political outlook, even when they are polar opposites with others who feel the same. I think the interpretation reveals more about the interpreter, than the object or concept being interpreted Ha Ha.. that's a very DELICATE way to say he punches holes in walls and throws phones when he doesn't get his way. After hearing some of the stories about him, I have found it hard to give him any more of my money.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 17, 2021 15:45:35 GMT -5
I can't speak to Waid's motivation; but, Waid can be...................................................... .....................hard to understand....................according to some who have known and worked with him. It is quite possible that he saw that element there and Doom is capricious, in many earlier stories. These things are always open to interpretation, just as so many see Captain America representing their political outlook, even when they are polar opposites with others who feel the same. I think the interpretation reveals more about the interpreter, than the object or concept being interpreted Ha Ha.. that's a very DELICATE way to say he punches holes in walls and throws phones when he doesn't get his way. After hearing some of the stories about him, I have found it hard to give him any more of my money. Comics, like any creative endeavor draws some "interesting" personalities. If it didn't, entertainment would be pretty bland. Waid isn't the only one to have conflicts with others or imprint their own perception onto a character and won't be the last.
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Post by Graphic Autist on Jun 17, 2021 15:59:10 GMT -5
What was it Doom did that was so un-Doom like under Waid's run? I remember Doom trying to give Franklin to Mephisto in exchange for Doom's mother, but that didn't seem like anything Doom wouldn't do under another writer.
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Post by foxley on Jun 17, 2021 16:56:59 GMT -5
I have to admit that Doctor Doom is one of those characters I have never seen the appeal of. How stupid are the heroes of the Marvel Universe that they are constantly surprised when Doom turns out to be a Doombot, despite the fact this is how 99.9% of their previous encounters with Doom have ended? Surely at least some of them possess super senses and could check if it was the real Doom or not as soon as he appears?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2021 17:35:05 GMT -5
^ but what about Dr. Droom ?
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Post by tonebone on Jun 18, 2021 7:44:42 GMT -5
Ha Ha.. that's a very DELICATE way to say he punches holes in walls and throws phones when he doesn't get his way. After hearing some of the stories about him, I have found it hard to give him any more of my money. Comics, like any creative endeavor draws some "interesting" personalities. If it didn't, entertainment would be pretty bland. Waid isn't the only one to have conflicts with others or imprint their own perception onto a character and won't be the last. Agreed.. and I can separate the artist from the art, but in his case, I just can't see past some of his more egregious actions, allegedly well beyond tantrums. He is (or was) one of the best for decades... just not for me, now.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 18, 2021 8:11:58 GMT -5
What was it Doom did that was so un-Doom like under Waid's run? I remember Doom trying to give Franklin to Mephisto in exchange for Doom's mother, but that didn't seem like anything Doom wouldn't do under another writer. I remember him killing and sacrificing his childhood love to gain demonic powers to defeat the FF. It was ghastly. But he’s done similar things in his history. The real lie was that he was written as noble.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jun 18, 2021 10:02:12 GMT -5
I have to admit that Doctor Doom is one of those characters I have never seen the appeal of. How stupid are the heroes of the Marvel Universe that they are constantly surprised when Doom turns out to be a Doombot, despite the fact this is how 99.9% of their previous encounters with Doom have ended? Surely at least some of them possess super senses and could check if it was the real Doom or not as soon as he appears? I never understood the appeal either. The most interesting plot twist of Doom was Doom 2099 was supposedly the real Doom. And as far as I can recall John Francis Moore or Warren Ellis never really confirmed that was the case with in the pages of the series. So it was left to reader to believe what they wanted to. Also Doom actually got $hit done, and wasn't constantly foiled like he was in the 616 timeline. So he actually was a threat to Earth at that time. I also liked that he was more of a diplomat/tyrant politically rather than just a flat out villain. I also didn't think movie Doom was all that bad. But then I don't know a whole lot about Doom so that could it too.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 18, 2021 10:43:31 GMT -5
Frankly, every time it’s revealed that the person in the story was a “Doombot “ the story is a fail.
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Post by chadwilliam on Jun 18, 2021 12:45:51 GMT -5
What was it Doom did that was so un-Doom like under Waid's run? I remember Doom trying to give Franklin to Mephisto in exchange for Doom's mother, but that didn't seem like anything Doom wouldn't do under another writer. I remember him killing and sacrificing his childhood love to gain demonic powers to defeat the FF. It was ghastly. But he’s done similar things in his history. The real lie was that he was written as noble. See, that's what I'm genuinely curious about - I have an idea of what sort of threshold Doom won't cross and this felt like it went beyond that. However, as I'm not all that well read when it comes to Marvel, I don't know if it's just a matter of me not having read more than about a dozen comics with Dr. Doom which creates this misperception in my mind or if it even is a misperception. I remember The Fantastic Four also making visible to Latverians the abattoirs in which Doom had been torturing and killing his own citizens and thinking to myself "this doesn't feel right". Just like to know what the "similar things in history" are.
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