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Post by berkley on Feb 25, 2021 1:13:12 GMT -5
Also, just as you can draw a distinction between the more mythic/SF-heavy Thor and the FF, I think you can also draw a distinction within the FF between the earlier issues and what most people acknowledge as the peak period of Kirby's creative outpouring for the series, from around the intro of the Inhumans to the Beehive/Him story. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Stan was more of a hands-on overseer in those earlier issues and more of a scripter - and not always a faithful or understanding one - from FF #45 to #68 or thereabouts.
OTOH, I remember reading somewhere Mark Evanier saying that the split between Kirby's and Lee's contributions didn't always fall where people might think. I took this to mean that Kirby didn't always contribute all the SF/fantasy elements and Stan didn't always contribute all the humour or soap-opera sub-plots, etc, because that's how I would tend to break it down myself. Anyone know of more detailed info on this score?
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Post by MWGallaher on Feb 25, 2021 7:49:15 GMT -5
... And here's the entirety of one of the existing type-written "plots" that Stan assigned to Kirby: "Dr. Doom and the Surfer get involved--maybe Doom wants the board, so defeats the Surfer somehow and the Surfer wanders off without the board. This can be spread over a few issues. Meanwhile, the Torch continues to follow Lockjaw." Interesting --thanks. Do you have a source for this or recall where this is from, MW? Is there a copy of this somewhere online or in a book/periodical? Making Comics: The ever-evolving Marvel Style of Storytelling
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Post by MDG on Feb 25, 2021 8:25:17 GMT -5
Without opening up the whole "Stan vs Jack" can of worms--which is never totally sealed--but has anyone ever speculated that the FF1 synopsis was created not for Jack but for Martin Goodman, who may have wanted to see something before committing to a new title
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Post by Farrar on Feb 25, 2021 15:39:11 GMT -5
Many thanks for the link, MW! Interesting column. Boy, I'd love to know where the columnist got that copy of with the 3 synopses on it, looks like form "sheltone@ebay"? And where did this sheltone get the page from? Also wonder why the columnist makes the point that "by 1964 he [Stan] was writing plots that spanned a half-page each..." when what's shown are synopses of from 3 issues that were published in 1966? I guess that's the only image/evidence this columnist could find, but it would have been nice if he included a date for the page.
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Post by Farrar on Feb 25, 2021 16:04:29 GMT -5
Without opening up the whole "Stan vs Jack" can of worms--which is never totally sealed--but has anyone ever speculated that the FF1 synopsis was created not for Jack but for Martin Goodman, who may have wanted to see something before committing to a new title Yes, I've read that theory too over the years, in various places, that the synopsis was for Goodman, Stan's boss and the one (according to the famous golf game story/myth/legend/etc.) who told Stan to put together a superhero team book in the first place.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 25, 2021 18:24:04 GMT -5
Without opening up the whole "Stan vs Jack" can of worms--which is never totally sealed--but has anyone ever speculated that the FF1 synopsis was created not for Jack but for Martin Goodman, who may have wanted to see something before committing to a new title Yes, I've read that theory too over the years, in various places, that the synopsis was for Goodman, Stan's boss and the one (according to the famous golf game story/myth/legend/etc.) who told Stan to put together a superhero team book in the first place. If the golf story is true, then Stan came up with the idea for the FF.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 25, 2021 19:27:05 GMT -5
Yes, I've read that theory too over the years, in various places, that the synopsis was for Goodman, Stan's boss and the one (according to the famous golf game story/myth/legend/etc.) who told Stan to put together a superhero team book in the first place. If the golf story is true, then Stan came up with the idea for the FF. Why. Stan could have gone to Jack and said, let's come up with a team book. Too much of Challengers of the Unknown in the FF for Jack not to be involved in the creation.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 25, 2021 19:45:24 GMT -5
If the golf story is true, then Stan came up with the idea for the FF. Why. Stan could have gone to Jack and said, let's come up with a team book. Too much of Challengers of the Unknown in the FF for Jack not to be involved in the creation. If you put together the golf story and the written plot sent to Goodman, it looks like Stan came up with the concept. Of course, it wasn't an original idea, but it's all in the execution , that's why you needed both Lee and Kirby.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 25, 2021 20:38:58 GMT -5
Why. Stan could have gone to Jack and said, let's come up with a team book. Too much of Challengers of the Unknown in the FF for Jack not to be involved in the creation. If you put together the golf story and the written plot sent to Goodman, it looks like Stan came up with the concept. Of course, it wasn't an original idea, but it's all in the execution , that's why you needed both Lee and Kirby. But did Stan write the synopsis before after he had a meeting with Jack? Stan and Jack disagree with each other, surprise, surprise. ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2013/05/in-their-own-words-who-created.html
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 26, 2021 7:37:46 GMT -5
If you put together the golf story and the written plot sent to Goodman, it looks like Stan came up with the concept. Of course, it wasn't an original idea, but it's all in the execution , that's why you needed both Lee and Kirby. But did Stan write the synopsis before after he had a meeting with Jack? Stan and Jack disagree with each other, surprise, surprise. ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2013/05/in-their-own-words-who-created.htmlWhat a mess. There's mo way to know for sure. I think Kirby was the main idea man but Stan shaped the ideas into something special.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 26, 2021 8:38:37 GMT -5
What a mess. There's mo way to know for sure. I think Kirby was the main idea man but Stan shaped the ideas into something special. I agree with this. I am not saying Stan could not have written FF, it's just the likeness to the Challengers that makes me think Kirby was involved in the creation. Some people think that Stan couldn't write a complete comic, he just gave vague story ideas and dialoged what the artist came up with. But this ignores his output in the 40s and 50s, where he wrote stories and scripts for all those Atlas and Marvel books.
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 28, 2021 11:10:17 GMT -5
Some people think that Stan couldn't write a complete comic
Why would anyone think that? It's not particularly difficult, much less during the decades when he was an active writer.
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Post by kirby101 on Feb 28, 2021 13:28:40 GMT -5
Some people think that Stan couldn't write a complete comic
Why would anyone think that? It's not particularly difficult, much less during the decades when he was an active writer. You hear fans saying that artists created everything and Stan just scripted what they turned in. Of course that is foolish.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 28, 2021 20:40:24 GMT -5
There is a certain subset of fandom that would elevate the artists (Kirby & Ditko included) by devaluing Stan (and other writers). That's ridiculous. Stan could and did write comics. he couldn't draw them, but he could write them and he could tell a visual story and guide his artists into illustrating it.
Some artists, like Kirby & Ditko, could create their own stories and often did, at various points in their career. Ditko wrote much of his Charlton output and had the writing credited to others (including Sam Glanzman's brother). However, they also worked with writers.
It's a collaborative field, just like cinema. Everyone has a part to play; but some people have an agenda to elevate one single component over all others. Some of this started in the 90s when people like Erik Larson were claiming the artist did all of the real story work and creation, which was hogwash then and is the same today. If that were true, then the Image comics should have been a whole lot better than a good chunk of them were.
One of the reasons Stan was using the plot method was that he was pretty much the only writer and editor working, for a time and he didn't have the time for full scripts. He didn't originate that method, as it had been used at various comic book packaging houses, like Eisner/Iger, Chesler, Funnies, Inc, etc... It also helped that his two chief collaborators, Kirby and Ditko, had a long history of doing their own stories. Stan knew he could trust them to cook up a story from a single idea or a conversation about where the plot might go. Other artists weren't as experienced or confident enough to do that and Stan had more extensive plots for them.
All you have to do is read Kirby and Ditko solo works and their collaborations with Stan to see and hear Stan's voice in the story. By the same token, when you read the other comics he did with Romita, Heck, Ayers, etc, that same voice is there. What isn't always there are the imaginative plots and characters. Kirby and Ditko brought immense imagination to their work, which inspired Stan and those stories are a lot more developed and have a higher quality than many of his others. In the absence of a Kirby or Ditko and a lack of inspiration, Stan had a tendency to fall back on stock villains, particularly communist spies. Kirby & Ditko, without Stan, often had trouble developing the personalities of their characters and could lose focus. Kirby worked like a jazz musician, creating the story as he drew, often going into places he didn't intend. Friends describe how his mind would wander off into some story idea, which is why Roz did the driving; Jack was too dangerous behind the wheel. When you read the New Gods and Jimmy Olson, they start out well, but they do have a tendency to drift a bit. Ditko would go into his Randian ideas, which didn't exactly make for fun stories and his antagonists would be more metaphorical, without Stan's hooks. Dr Strange was probably Ditko's best forum, for both his visuals and his metaphors. Spider-Man really reads more of a mixture of Stan & Steve, just as the FF reads more Stan & Jack.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 2, 2021 17:51:46 GMT -5
I started reading some of my Superman collection and read the Krisis of the Krimson Krptonite story that ran through the Superman titles. Maybe shaxper knows more but , what are the circumstances of Perry whites son dying and the parentage of the kid? Did Perry's wife have an affair with Luthor ? I tried to find the answer in Shax's review thread to no avail.
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