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Post by Chris on Jan 15, 2019 22:36:20 GMT -5
In The Winter's Tale, a servant speaks of a traveling salesman who sings songs with "dildos." I didn't know Shakespeare listened to Steely Dan.
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Post by hondobrode on Jan 16, 2019 0:03:34 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 3:13:20 GMT -5
I'll be honest. I'm offended when people, here and elsewhere, mock Christianity or make derogatory comments about Christians. In his post above, @simongarth refers to "religous nutjobs" (and we all know he means Christians, not people of any other faith), but no one will call him out on it, yet if he'd said something derogatory about Jews or Muslims, I'm betting he'd get hammered for being anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic. Same as if someone made anti-African American, anti-female, anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant, or anti-pretty-damn-near-anything-else comments; they would get shouted down and told what a horrible person they are, but Christianity, at least among progressives, is the last acceptable refuge for bigotry. Do you not think you have a problem with the Religious Right in the USA? I'll be frank... from a position of peering into US politics from a Brit perspective, the Republican party appear to be stark, staring insane, and some of that problem is because they are at least partly in hock to a religious block (and also of course to big business). It's not about being anti-Christian or anti any other religion, it's about recognising that a large chunk of the support for a party which has utterly lost contact with reality, is an extreme Christian block. And yes, if it were any other religious block, I'd call them out too.
I object to religious interference in the UK, wherever it comes from, and contribute to an organisation which fights to keep religion from interfering in areas is doesn't belong - and that includes Christian, Jewish and Islamic interference in schools syllabuses, for example. But the scale of interference over here is vastly different in tone and content - we (generally) don't have the anti-science element which has embedded itself in the Republicans; our mainstream Christians & Muslims also call out radical and extreme elements and regard them as damaging to the reputation of their faiths.
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Post by The Captain on Jan 16, 2019 7:41:18 GMT -5
I'll be honest. I'm offended when people, here and elsewhere, mock Christianity or make derogatory comments about Christians. In his post above, @simongarth refers to "religous nutjobs" (and we all know he means Christians, not people of any other faith), but no one will call him out on it, yet if he'd said something derogatory about Jews or Muslims, I'm betting he'd get hammered for being anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic. Same as if someone made anti-African American, anti-female, anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant, or anti-pretty-damn-near-anything-else comments; they would get shouted down and told what a horrible person they are, but Christianity, at least among progressives, is the last acceptable refuge for bigotry. Do you not think you have a problem with the Religious Right in the USA? I'll be frank... from a position of peering into US politics from a Brit perspective, the Republican party appear to be stark, staring insane, and some of that problem is because they are at least partly in hock to a religious block (and also of course to big business). It's not about being anti-Christian or anti any other religion, it's about recognising that a large chunk of the support for a party which has utterly lost contact with reality, is an extreme Christian block. And yes, if it were any other religious block, I'd call them out too.
I object to religious interference in the UK, wherever it comes from, and contribute to an organisation which fights to keep religion from interfering in areas is doesn't belong - and that includes Christian, Jewish and Islamic interference in schools syllabuses, for example. But the scale of interference over here is vastly different in tone and content - we (generally) don't have the anti-science element which has embedded itself in the Republicans; our mainstream Christians & Muslims also call out radical and extreme elements and regard them as damaging to the reputation of their faiths.
For me, the issue is the use of the term "religious nutjobs", as you're tying their belief to an evaluation of their sanity. You can disagree with someone without denigrating them or their beliefs. If I were to use terms like "environmentalist whackjobs" or "psycho LGBTQ crusaders" because I don't align with their positions, how do you think that would go over? You think I would get a pass on that? I'd put money down that someone would take issue with it and call me out, and rightfully so. Is the Religious Right a problem in the US? They absolutely are, and I say that as a Christian and a person who is friends with people who I would put in that category. They, however, aren't insane, but rather have strongly-held beliefs that drive their behavior, just as those who believe in all types of other things do. I don't agree with them and have had many hours of spirited debates with them on the role of religion in government, but it never devolves into name-calling or insults.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jan 16, 2019 8:48:39 GMT -5
I'll be honest. I'm offended when people, here and elsewhere, mock Christianity or make derogatory comments about Christians. In his post above, @simongarth refers to "religous nutjobs" (and we all know he means Christians, not people of any other faith), but no one will call him out on it, yet if he'd said something derogatory about Jews or Muslims, I'm betting he'd get hammered for being anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic. Same as if someone made anti-African American, anti-female, anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant, or anti-pretty-damn-near-anything-else comments; they would get shouted down and told what a horrible person they are, but Christianity, at least among progressives, is the last acceptable refuge for bigotry. Thing is, while I'm offended by it, I'm not suffering any damage or "hurt" from it, and while I may make a comment like this to make mention of it, I'm not going to attack him or ask the mods to ban him. It's not worth harming another member of the community over so small a slight, so I let things like that go and just recognize them as something I need to accept if I want to be part of this community, because I know I'm in the tiny minority here and most folks are either irreligious or anti-religion (primarily anti-Christian, or at least anti-politically-active right-wing American Evangelical Christian). I think this is a very fair point worth addressing, and I want to be clear that, as I am no longer a moderator here, I speak as a member and not as a representative of the CCF mod team. I think there is a difference between mocking the religious and mocking those who make their religious beliefs political. I saw for the first time last week someone arguing that anyone who considers themselves a Jew HAS to support Trump because of X or Y, and (as a Jew) I wasn't sure whether to laugh or feel furious. It certainly isn't just Christians anymore. And even within Christianity, Catholics and Evangelicals are being prodded in different directions. But, regardless, it isn't about mocking the religious (or, at least, it shouldn't be). It's about those who believe legislation should reflect their religious values. I know many practicing Christians who have a myriad of attitudes about homosexuality. Some believe it's wrong, some are just uncomfortable with it, some are in favor of it, and some actively fight for the community. None of those people are worthy of mockery, IMO -- but the people who fight to inhibit the civil rights of the LGBTQ community because of their religious beliefs deserve mockery, and I think that's the group Simon and others are attempting to target. Those who believe only their religion and religious values are correct, and that this country therefore belongs to their religious denomination and no one else. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe, and you have a right to be respected regardless of your beliefs. But once you use your beliefs as a rationale for silencing or harming others, you are a "religious nutjob". It's not a dig at the religious; it's a dig at those who use their religion as an excuse to exclude and persecute. Knowing you as well as I do, Captain, I'm willing to bet that doesn't fall in line with your religious beliefs at all. Thus, you are not part of the group being mocked/criticized.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 16, 2019 9:34:51 GMT -5
I'll be honest. I'm offended when people, here and elsewhere, mock Christianity or make derogatory comments about Christians. In his post above, @simongarth refers to "religous nutjobs" (and we all know he means Christians, not people of any other faith), but no one will call him out on it, yet if he'd said something derogatory about Jews or Muslims, I'm betting he'd get hammered for being anti-Semitic or Islamaphobic. Same as if someone made anti-African American, anti-female, anti-LGBTQ, anti-immigrant, or anti-pretty-damn-near-anything-else comments; they would get shouted down and told what a horrible person they are, but Christianity, at least among progressives, is the last acceptable refuge for bigotry. Thing is, while I'm offended by it, I'm not suffering any damage or "hurt" from it, and while I may make a comment like this to make mention of it, I'm not going to attack him or ask the mods to ban him. It's not worth harming another member of the community over so small a slight, so I let things like that go and just recognize them as something I need to accept if I want to be part of this community, because I know I'm in the tiny minority here and most folks are either irreligious or anti-religion (primarily anti-Christian, or at least anti-politically-active right-wing American Evangelical Christian). I think this is a very fair point worth addressing, and I want to be clear that, as I am no longer a moderator here, I speak as a member and not as a representative of the CCF mod team. I think there is a difference between mocking the religious and mocking those who make their religious beliefs political. I saw for the first time last week someone arguing that anyone who considers themselves a Jew HAS to support Trump because of X or Y, and (as a Jew) I wasn't sure whether to laugh or feel furious. It certainly isn't just Christians anymore. And even within Christianity, Catholics and Evangelicals are being prodded in different directions. But, regardless, it isn't about mocking the religious (or, at least, it shouldn't be). It's about those who believe legislation should reflect their religious values. I know many practicing Christians who have a myriad of attitudes about homosexuality. Some believe it's wrong, some are just uncomfortable with it, some are in favor of it, and some actively fight for the community. None of those people are worthy of mockery, IMO -- but the people who fight to inhibit the civil rights of the LGBTQ community because of their religious beliefs deserve mockery, and I think that's the group Simon and others are attempting to target. Those who believe only their religion and religious values are correct, and that this country therefore belongs to their religious denomination and no one else. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe, and you have a right to be respected regardless of your beliefs. But once you use your beliefs as a rationale for silencing or harming others, you are a "religious nutjob". It's not a dig at the religious; it's a dig at those who use their religion as an excuse to exclude and persecute. Knowing you as well as I do, Captain, I'm willing to bet that doesn't fall in line with your religious beliefs at all. Thus, you are not part of the group being mocked/criticized. I think that's a fair distinction to make, I honestly think that when people disparage the Religious Right they aren't disparaging all Christians. I mean, most Christians don't support the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church so they in turn shouldn't feel upset when that group is attacked by pundits...and if some do get upset then to me that just says that it's because their beliefs are mirrored in that group and in that case I feel about as bad for them as I do about Neo-Nazis and KKK members crying about being discriminated against because of their sincerely held beliefs. It's the same with attacks on toxic masculinity or white people in general; I just can't understand it when I see people I know get offended by people making attacks on those ideas. All I can do is ask them, "Do you act like a chauvinistic pig with no manners? Are you racist? No? Well then those attacks aren't directed at you, so why get upset?"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 9:44:58 GMT -5
You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe, and you have a right to be respected regardless of your beliefs. But once you use your beliefs as a rationale for silencing or harming others, you are a "religious nutjob". It's not a dig at the religious; it's a dig at those who use their religion as an excuse to exclude and persecute. Knowing you as well as I do, Captain, I'm willing to bet that doesn't fall in line with your religious beliefs at all. Thus, you are not part of the group being mocked/criticized. This is the point I was attempting to make - it's nutjobs who are religious (or who use a cloak of religion to support their positions) that I was objecting to, rather than the religious as a whole. However, that being said, I can see that this has been an inflammatory term and has caused offense, so I apologise for my use of the term and I'll endeavour to avoid such terms in the future (most of my internet political discourse is on a football (soccer) forum, strangely enough, where fairly...robust... language is the norm. Even so, I shouldn't import those sensibilities here)
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Post by The Captain on Jan 16, 2019 10:05:27 GMT -5
You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe, and you have a right to be respected regardless of your beliefs. But once you use your beliefs as a rationale for silencing or harming others, you are a "religious nutjob". It's not a dig at the religious; it's a dig at those who use their religion as an excuse to exclude and persecute. Knowing you as well as I do, Captain, I'm willing to bet that doesn't fall in line with your religious beliefs at all. Thus, you are not part of the group being mocked/criticized. This is the point I was attempting to make - it's nutjobs who are religious (or who use a cloak of religion to support their positions) that I was objecting to, rather than the religious as a whole. However, that being said, I can see that this has been an inflammatory term and has caused offense, so I apologise for my use of the term and I'll endeavour to avoid such terms in the future (most of my internet political discourse is on a football (soccer) forum, strangely enough, where fairly...robust... language is the norm. Even so, I shouldn't import those sensibilities here) Thanks for understanding; I appreciate it. If you used the terms "religious extremists" or "religious activists" to identify folks in the Religious Right, I'd be fine with that and wouldn't take offense, because their views are extreme compared to most Christians and they are using their religion to drive their activism. At the risk of opening up an even more contentious topic, what football team do you support?
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Jan 16, 2019 12:28:47 GMT -5
Thanks for understanding; I appreciate it. If you used the terms "religious extremists" or "religious activists" to identify folks in the Religious Right, I'd be fine with that and wouldn't take offense, because their views are extreme compared to most Christians and they are using their religion to drive their activism. I think this is a very reasonable request to make of the community. Good call.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 12:30:21 GMT -5
The mighty West Ham United, who are in many ways the most un-American team imaginable, in the sense that we never expect to win anything, and glory in heroic failure.
Here's our anthem, which pretty much sums us up, emphasis on the heroic failure bits: I'm forever blowing bubbles Pretty bubble in the sky They fly so high They nearly reach the sky And like my dreams They fade and die Fortune's always hiding I've looked everywhere I'm forever blowing bubbles Pretty bubbles in the air
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Post by impulse on Jan 16, 2019 12:53:03 GMT -5
I think it is pretty clear that the term religious nutjobs refers to nutjobs who are religious, not nutjobs because they are religious because there could very easily be religious volunteers, religious philanthropists, religious scientists, religious extremists, etc. Just as easily, you could say tall nutjobs, fat nutjobs, atheist nutjobs, flat-earther nutjobs,etc. Not to argue against the idea of using more specific language to avoid confusion, just pointing out how and why I don't the term carries the offensive meaning you perceived, Captain. I'm also Christian and am most certainly not a nutjob like those twisted, warped evil hateful pseudo-religous nutjobs the Westboro Baptist church, but I digress.
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Post by The Captain on Jan 16, 2019 13:16:58 GMT -5
The mighty West Ham United, who are in many ways the most un-American team imaginable, in the sense that we never expect to win anything, and glory in heroic failure. Here's our anthem, which pretty much sums us up, emphasis on the heroic failure bits: I'm forever blowing bubbles Pretty bubble in the sky They fly so high They nearly reach the sky And like my dreams They fade and die Fortune's always hiding I've looked everywhereI'm forever blowing bubbles Pretty bubbles in the air I'm right there with you. I adopted Swansea City as my team a number of years back when I was first getting into football, eschewing picking ManU or Chelsea or the like, as that is akin to picking the New York Yankees or New England Patriots if you have no connection and just want a team to support; going straight for the frontrunner just somehow seems dirty. I'm hoping the Swans will be at home when I am in Wales in August, or at least somewhere close to the border so that maybe I couls get to see them live. Failing that, I'm loading up on kit at the team store to bring back with me
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Post by beccabear67 on Jan 16, 2019 13:29:30 GMT -5
I'm very critical of Pat Robertson when he quotes from the Bible, but not great aunt Mimi for example. One is very political and effects people and has a satellite television network etc., the other is running the rummage sale in the church basement every weekday morning to get a memorial on the grounds spruced up.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 17, 2019 12:09:40 GMT -5
So, first the truth isn't the truth and now Giuliani says he never said there wasn't any collusion with the Russians by the President's staff.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 17, 2019 12:23:40 GMT -5
So, first the truth isn't the truth and now Giuliani says he never said there wasn't any collusion with the Russians by the President's staff. I'm pretty sure it's time for Grandpa to retire to The Home.
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