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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 5, 2016 20:46:51 GMT -5
I'm glad to see that everyone likes this one! According to Mike's Amazing World, it was written by Bill Finger, with art by Sheldon Moldoff and Charles Paris. And I especially love Robin and Bat-Girl giggling in the background in the last panel. Hilarious and adorable! DC had a few covers with that kind of soft, neon, glowing look. I was a sucker for them. Here's one:
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 5, 2016 21:50:20 GMT -5
I'm glad to see that everyone likes this one! According to Mike's Amazing World, it was written by Bill Finger, with art by Sheldon Moldoff and Charles Paris. And I especially love Robin and Bat-Girl giggling in the background in the last panel. Hilarious and adorable! DC had a few covers with that kind of soft, neon, glowing look. I was a sucker for them. Here's one: I assume that no one is surprised that I love this one too. I love the part where Double X steals a prototype flying tank from the military! It's a tank with wings! It is hilarious!
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 5, 2016 21:55:38 GMT -5
DC had a few covers with that kind of soft, neon, glowing look. I was a sucker for them. Here's one: I assume that no one is surprised that I love this one too. I love the part where Double X steals a prototype flying tank from the military! It's a tank with wings! It is hilarious! And only years later did the truth come out that Schiff had stumbled on plans for a prototype secret weapon which he had Sheldon Moldoff adapt for the story. True fact. And Obama's from Kenya, too.
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Post by foxley on Sept 5, 2016 23:33:58 GMT -5
Lil' Ishi did enjoy this book that Hoosier spotlighted awhile back. As a full length 3-part "novel" the sheer size of the story lent it an aura of importance Maybe it was all the sex contained in the story that made it a favorite I have this one in my collection, and reading it with an adult eye there is some serious subtext going on, and it is entirely possible that sex could have occurred off-panel, as the two 'couples' are separated for some time. Maybe Dr Wertham was right! (Or, then again, maybe not, as this would have been heterosexual sex and not what Wertham was worried about when it came to Batman and Robin. )
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Sept 6, 2016 1:10:38 GMT -5
I have this one in my collection, and reading it with an adult eye there is some serious subtext going on, and it is entirely possible that sex could have occurred off-panel, as the two 'couples' are separated for some time. Maybe Dr Wertham was right! (Or, then again, maybe not, as this would have been heterosexual sex and not what Wertham was worried about when it came to Batman and Robin. ) I'm not too sure foxley. Look at the faces of Bats and Robin when they get kissed. Doesn't look like the joy of a straight guy getting kissed by a woman he likes. Same face when Aunt Harriet lays one on them. I've seen more expressions of joy with the Caped Crusaders when Alfred slips them some tongue grotto
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Post by Prince Hal on Sept 6, 2016 8:02:47 GMT -5
I have this one in my collection, and reading it with an adult eye there is some serious subtext going on, and it is entirely possible that sex could have occurred off-panel, as the two 'couples' are separated for some time. Maybe Dr Wertham was right! (Or, then again, maybe not, as this would have been heterosexual sex and not what Wertham was worried about when it came to Batman and Robin. ) I'm not too sure foxley. Look at the faces of Bats and Robin when they get kissed. Doesn't look like the joy of a straight guy getting kissed by a woman he likes. Same face when Aunt Harriet lays one on them. I've seen more expressions of joy with the Caped Crusaders when Alfred slips them some tongue grotto Du-uh! Because girls have COOTIES! Don't you know anything, ish!?
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Post by Action Ace on Sept 6, 2016 13:59:11 GMT -5
One of the things I love about Batwoman is that she pre-dates the Silver Age Flash by a few months. Jack Schiff edited Batman for a long time. A long time. And those random aliens that the anti-Schiff crowd likes to mock were around for a long time too. If you look at the sales figures for Batman and Detective for the late 1950s and the very very early 1960s, they are second only to the Superman family of comics. And this is when the random aliens and weird transformations had been going on for a few years. It was a very successful formula for a long time. If you look at the last year or so of Detective Comics (and I'm guessing the Batman comic is the same but I haven't looked at it that closely), you'll see that there just aren't that many random aliens and weird transformation stories. From Detective #311 to #326, there's three Catman stories, one run-in with Clayface, some fairly generic gangsters, a movie-lot murderer, a Tarzan-inspired story, the return of both Double X and the Terrible Trio, Dr. No-Face, the Zodiac-Master and a robot brain. There's one weird transformation story (Detective #322) where Batman turns into a genie. (And it's a great story! So for me, it's not a good example of Schiff being a hack) and a story that kind of mixes the weird transformations with random aliens (Detective #320) the one with Batman and Robin as mummies (this one's pretty dumb, but I kind of like it because they gave Vicki Vale something to do.) And the random aliens in Detective #326. (This is another one that I think is a bad example if you're trying to claim hackery. I like it!) So that's three out of sixteen stories with those random aliens and weird transformations that supposedly characterize the Schiff era. I don't think Bat-Mite is in a single one of these issues. (He's in #310 though.) Batwoman is in quite a few of them. Bat-Girl appears once. (She only appeared six times in 1961 to 1964 in all the Batman comics combined, and #322 is Bat-Girl's only appearance in Detective.) I'm not sure about Ace. He's only in one of these issues, I think, but I think he might have appeared in the main Batman comic more often. By 1964, I'm guessing the "Bob Kane" style of art looked very outdated, and sales were declining. I doubt very much that Batman was on the verge of cancelation, as some have claimed. But Batman had been very successful under Jack Schiff for quite a long time, including a period of several years where the random aliens and weird transformations were selling very well. I love these stories! From what I've read, they hit more often than they miss. This idea that they were all random aliens and weird transformations seems to me to be a huge exaggeration that I've been seeing in the introductions to trade reprints of Batman stories for a long time and it's not borne out by my experience with actually reading the stories. I keep meaning to be a bit more comprehensive and do more research and write an article about the "Jack Schiff myth" but I just haven't read that many of the stories over the long haul of Schiff's career. Jack Schiff probably was doing a satisfactory job on the Batman line. The problem was he was doing this at a time when Mort Weisinger was taking the Superman line to new heights and Julie Schwartz was producing new hit after new hit with retooled Golden Age properties. "Fine" just wasn't going to cut it any more.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Sept 6, 2016 15:07:54 GMT -5
One of the things I love about Batwoman is that she pre-dates the Silver Age Flash by a few months. Jack Schiff edited Batman for a long time. A long time. And those random aliens that the anti-Schiff crowd likes to mock were around for a long time too. If you look at the sales figures for Batman and Detective for the late 1950s and the very very early 1960s, they are second only to the Superman family of comics. And this is when the random aliens and weird transformations had been going on for a few years. It was a very successful formula for a long time. If you look at the last year or so of Detective Comics (and I'm guessing the Batman comic is the same but I haven't looked at it that closely), you'll see that there just aren't that many random aliens and weird transformation stories. From Detective #311 to #326, there's three Catman stories, one run-in with Clayface, some fairly generic gangsters, a movie-lot murderer, a Tarzan-inspired story, the return of both Double X and the Terrible Trio, Dr. No-Face, the Zodiac-Master and a robot brain. There's one weird transformation story (Detective #322) where Batman turns into a genie. (And it's a great story! So for me, it's not a good example of Schiff being a hack) and a story that kind of mixes the weird transformations with random aliens (Detective #320) the one with Batman and Robin as mummies (this one's pretty dumb, but I kind of like it because they gave Vicki Vale something to do.) And the random aliens in Detective #326. (This is another one that I think is a bad example if you're trying to claim hackery. I like it!) So that's three out of sixteen stories with those random aliens and weird transformations that supposedly characterize the Schiff era. I don't think Bat-Mite is in a single one of these issues. (He's in #310 though.) Batwoman is in quite a few of them. Bat-Girl appears once. (She only appeared six times in 1961 to 1964 in all the Batman comics combined, and #322 is Bat-Girl's only appearance in Detective.) I'm not sure about Ace. He's only in one of these issues, I think, but I think he might have appeared in the main Batman comic more often. By 1964, I'm guessing the "Bob Kane" style of art looked very outdated, and sales were declining. I doubt very much that Batman was on the verge of cancelation, as some have claimed. But Batman had been very successful under Jack Schiff for quite a long time, including a period of several years where the random aliens and weird transformations were selling very well. I love these stories! From what I've read, they hit more often than they miss. This idea that they were all random aliens and weird transformations seems to me to be a huge exaggeration that I've been seeing in the introductions to trade reprints of Batman stories for a long time and it's not borne out by my experience with actually reading the stories. I keep meaning to be a bit more comprehensive and do more research and write an article about the "Jack Schiff myth" but I just haven't read that many of the stories over the long haul of Schiff's career. Jack Schiff probably was doing a satisfactory job on the Batman line. The problem was he was doing this at a time when Mort Weisinger was taking the Superman line to new heights and Julie Schwartz was producing new hit after new hit with retooled Golden Age properties. "Fine" just wasn't going to cut it any more. Good Point. He was also competing against some other company named Marvel that was making some strong progress, or so I'm told
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Post by MDG on Sept 6, 2016 15:12:17 GMT -5
There's also the fact that, while in the GA, there were a lot of "costumed"--not super--heroes, like Wildcat, Black Canary, Dr. Mid-Nite, as well as at other companies. But by the late 50s, the heroes were more science-based, and fighting off invasions from other worlds. Detective work and beatin' the crap out of guys in fedoras probably seemed pretty tame.
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Post by Action Ace on Sept 6, 2016 15:32:01 GMT -5
Jack Schiff probably was doing a satisfactory job on the Batman line. The problem was he was doing this at a time when Mort Weisinger was taking the Superman line to new heights and Julie Schwartz was producing new hit after new hit with retooled Golden Age properties. "Fine" just wasn't going to cut it any more. Good Point. He was also competing against some other company named Marvel that was making some strong progress, or so I'm told Jack Schiff's change in editorial portfolio from Batman, Detective, World's Finest and Blackhawk to House of Secrets, House of Mystery, Strange Adventures and Tales of the Unexpected was in early 1964. I'm not sure how much Marvel's new success had on the decision.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 11, 2016 17:16:18 GMT -5
BATMAN #299 and down (reviews by Hoosier X)BATMAN #266 "The Curious Case of the Catwoman’s Coincidences" August 1975 Story: Denny O’Neil Art: Irv Novick and Dick Giordano Editor: Julius Schwartz I took a little break after reviewing #279 because the next issue I have is #266, so it seemed like a good place to take a breather. When I got back to #266 a few months ago, I found I wasn't all that enthusiastic to write about it. It’s not one of the Batman comics I’ve had for years, either through buying it off a spinner rack or from getting it from a used-book store a year or so after it came out. No, I got Batman #266 just a few years ago from eBay. And I loved it when I first got it! Such beautiful art by Irv Novick and Dick Giordano! Selina Kyle is so beautiful throughout! Plus, Batman #266 features the return of the classic Catwoman look from the 1940s and 1950s, the purple mask, the skirt, the cloak. It gets a lot of points for that! The green Catwoman costume from the late 1960s has grown on me quite a bit. The blue and block costume with the red highlights has a certain campy charm. But the purple cloaked look is the best look for Catwoman. It’s a pretty crazy issue. In the five years or so since I got it, I’ve pulled it out a few times and re-read it or skimmed it. Mostly I looked at the art! That is some great art! Novick and Giordano are a great team. But when I pulled it out to re-read it to review it for my "Batman #299 and down" series, I looked at it really closely and read every word, which I haven’t done since I first got it. And “The Curious Case of the Catwoman’s Coincidences” just doesn’t really come together all that well. It’s a bit of a mess. I was kind of disappointed that a story I liked so well was such a mishmash. So when I was supposed to be writing a review of Batman #266, I was sitting on the edge of my bed, depressed, staring at the wall, and not much excited about writing the review. So I put it off and didn’t get back to it for a while. But I want to get past this and get to the rest of my pre-Batman #299 collection. With the passage of time and another re-reading of Batman #266, I realize that I just have to accept that "The Curious Case of the Catwoman's Coincidences" is what it is, and it’s still a fun story with such great art and the return of the classic Catwoman costume! It’s a gimmick story, very reminiscent (I think) of the kinds of Batman stories that Frank Robbins was writing in 1970 or thereabouts. There’s a bunch of coincidences, you see, most of them revolving around cat puns or phrases that include “cat” in them. For example, the prison train that is carrying Selina Kyle to the penitentiary crashes into a runaway caterpillar tractor (called a “cat” in construction slang) and a bunch of convicts, including Selina, escape. And later in the story, Selina and her gang have a big headstart and Batman can’t possibly catch up to them … until they turn a corner where a catfood truck is blocking the way. Things like that. Sometimes it helps Catwoman, sometimes it hinders her. The prison train sequence is pretty cool. And some of the later scenes are pretty good. (Especially Bruce Wayne in drag as a wealthy widow who wears expensive, gaudy jewelry everywhere as he sets a trap to attract the attention of a jewel thief who’s been plaguing Gotham.) But it just doesn't really come together as well as I thought it did the first few times I read the story. Catwoman and Batman don’t even tangle until the very end, and the fight is over way too quickly for this longtime Catwoman fan. I've come to terms with it. Such nice art!
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Post by foxley on Sept 12, 2016 3:05:23 GMT -5
BATMAN #299 and down (reviews by Hoosier X)BATMAN #266 "The Curious Case of the Catwoman’s Coincidences" August 1975 Story: Denny O’Neil Art: Irv Novick and Dick Giordano Editor: Julius Schwartz I took a little break after reviewing #279 because the next issue I have is #266, so it seemed like a good place to take a breather. When I got back to #266 a few months ago, I found I wasn't all that enthusiastic to write about it. It’s not one of the Batman comics I’ve had for years, either through buying it off a spinner rack or from getting it from a used-book store a year or so after it came out. No, I got Batman #266 just a few years ago from eBay. And I loved it when I first got it! Such beautiful art by Irv Novick and Dick Giordano! Selina Kyle is so beautiful throughout! Plus, Batman #266 features the return of the classic Catwoman look from the 1940s and 1950s, the purple mask, the skirt, the cloak. It gets a lot of points for that! The green Catwoman costume from the late 1960s has grown on me quite a bit. The blue and block costume with the red highlights has a certain campy charm. But the purple cloaked look is the best look for Catwoman. It’s a pretty crazy issue. In the five years or so since I got it, I’ve pulled it out a few times and re-read it or skimmed it. Mostly I looked at the art! That is some great art! Novick and Giordano are a great team. But when I pulled it out to re-read it to review it for my "Batman #299 and down" series, I looked at it really closely and read every word, which I haven’t done since I first got it. And “The Curious Case of the Catwoman’s Coincidences” just doesn’t really come together all that well. It’s a bit of a mess. I was kind of disappointed that a story I liked so well was such a mishmash. So when I was supposed to be writing a review of Batman #266, I was sitting on the edge of my bed, depressed, staring at the wall, and not much excited about writing the review. So I put it off and didn’t get back to it for a while. But I want to get past this and get to the rest of my pre-Batman #299 collection. With the passage of time and another re-reading of Batman #266, I realize that I just have to accept that "The Curious Case of the Catwoman's Coincidences" is what it is, and it’s still a fun story with such great art and the return of the classic Catwoman costume! It’s a gimmick story, very reminiscent (I think) of the kinds of Batman stories that Frank Robbins was writing in 1970 or thereabouts. There’s a bunch of coincidences, you see, most of them revolving around cat puns or phrases that include “cat” in them. For example, the prison train that is carrying Selina Kyle to the penitentiary crashes into a runaway caterpillar tractor (called a “cat” in construction slang) and a bunch of convicts, including Selina, escape. And later in the story, Selina and her gang have a big headstart and Batman can’t possibly catch up to them … until they turn a corner where a catfood truck is blocking the way. Things like that. Sometimes it helps Catwoman, sometimes it hinders her. The prison train sequence is pretty cool. And some of the later scenes are pretty good. (Especially Bruce Wayne in drag as a wealthy widow who wears expensive, gaudy jewelry everywhere as he sets a trap to attract the attention of a jewel thief who’s been plaguing Gotham.) But it just doesn't really come together as well as I thought it did the first few times I read the story. Catwoman and Batman don’t even tangle until the very end, and the fight is over way too quickly for this longtime Catwoman fan. I've come to terms with it. Such nice art! This is a very odd issue. But, in its own way, it is fun. Mostly though I love that cover (and the gorgeous interior art). And it is significant for the return of CW's classic costume, which was welcome after the monstrosities of the late 60s and early 70s, and would last till Frank Miller decreed that she must be a prostitute who wears an ugly grey jumpsuit (but that is dead horse I've probably beaten enough).
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 12, 2016 8:32:27 GMT -5
This is a very odd issue. But, in its own way, it is fun. Mostly though I love that cover (and the gorgeous interior art). And it is significant for the return of CW's classic costume, which was welcome after the monstrosities of the late 60s and early 70s, and would last till Frank Miller decreed that she must be a prostitute who wears an ugly grey jumpsuit (but that is dead horse I've probably beaten enough). You can beat that dead horse all you want on this thread! What about those Miller defenders who say that Miller was coming from a crime fiction background where apparently all the female characters are prostitutes, or something? That's some pretty lame sophistry. I hope they got a good price for it at the Sophistry Warehouse. You wonder which branch of crime fiction Miller was reading where all the female characters are prostitutes. And even if that part of the justification is true, that there is a such a genre in crime fiction, uh, well, I think Miller had enough experience writing comic books that he could figure out on his own that all your major female characters don't have to be prostitutes without accidentally stumbling across a different crime fiction series where there are some major female characters who aren't prostitutes. Like maybe he could have read a Raymond Chandler novel just before writing Year One. "Hey! Not all the major female characters have to be prostitutes! I should try that!"
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 16, 2016 15:20:23 GMT -5
I'm making progress on my Top Ten Jack Schiff Era Stories list. I narrowed it down to about 15 stories, and I'm reading them bit by bit to see if they hold up as well as I remember. I was a little disappointed with the Catman story in Detective Comics #325. The ending seems a bit rushed. Batwoman tells a bit of the story in a two-panel flashback and it looks pretty danged exciting to pass off in a flashback like that! So Detective #318 gets the nod as best Catman story. I had better luck with Detective Comics #326! I read this for about the hundredth time last night. I know this one pretty well, so I'm not at all surprised that it holds up so well! It's so crazy! Batman and Robin are flying the Batplane over Africa, heading back to Gotham City after an otherwise undescribed adventure! (One of the mysteries of this amazing issue!) So, a bolt of lightning hits the Batplane, so they land and are attacked by lions! The lions are driven off by the Baby-Chicken People! Batman and Robin are captured by the aliens! (And there's a panel where the Baby-Chicken People are tossing a gorilla out of a cage because they need it for Batman and Robin! Lucky gorilla!) And so Batman and Robin are taken to the faraway planet of the Baby-Chicken People and put in a zoo! And they can't get food until they do tricks in a circus! And Batman notices that the Baby-Chicken People who run the circus are criminals! How can he stop theit evil plans and get Robin and himself back to Earth? Totally insane and totally AWESOME! So, Ish. What did you think of the J'onn J'onzz story when you were a little Ish?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Sept 16, 2016 15:37:16 GMT -5
So, Ish. What did you think of the J'onn J'onzz story when you were a little Ish? I loves me Zook. Naked little critter with that iconic DC baby talk and great power set. And those antennas on his head that could capture early FM radio. Zook should have got his own book. What a missed opportunity. Wasn't even invited into the Legion Of Super Pets. I stand corrected, he did get his own series
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