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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 24, 2015 11:22:44 GMT -5
As I was reading Batman #291 and skimming #292 last night, I found a couple of mistakes in my post about WWYOTNBWK. The secluded estate where the villains met to judge the confessed murderers was not the estate of Killer Moth in his secret identity. But that's what I thought for years! And it seems logical. Killer Moth in his secret identity is a wealthy Gotham figure, isn't he? Am I mistaken on this?
I've read this story a bunch of times, but I must have always skimmed the caption where it reveals the location of the trial. Because the caption says it's the estate of Col. Jake "The Claw" Van Cleve and I don't know who that is. Somehow, I guess my mind just changed that to Cameron Van Cleer, the identity under which Killer Moth operates.
Also, I wrote that Two-Face announced that several of the claimants to the murder of Batman had withdrawn their affidavits. But it was actually Ras al Ghul, at the very end of #292.
These changes have been made in the comment.
And I want to make it very clear that I will never again be using the acronym WWYOTNBWK to refer to "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?"
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Post by foxley on Dec 24, 2015 18:27:24 GMT -5
"Where Were You on The Night Batman was Killed?" is the reason I cut David V. Reed more slack than he deserves as a writer (because the rest of his Batman stories range from the pedestrian to the odd to the downright awful).
But when I first read this story, I was heavily into Encyclopedia Brown and I loved the idea of Two-Face picking holes in the villains' stories to prove they hadn't killed Batman. It was from this story that I learned that Brazilian pepperwood doesn't float, and that dynamite burns if you place it in a fire. (I also learned that cat's whiskers are called vibrassae. Who says comics aren't educational?)
Which is why I dislike the Luthor chapter so much. Luthor actually believed he had killed Batman, so there was no dramatic reveal of the fatal hole in his tale as there had been in the first two chapters.
If I was doing a list of my top ten favourite Catwoman and Riddler stories, their chapters of WWYOTNNBWK would make their respective lists.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 26, 2015 14:42:52 GMT -5
Does anybody know who Col. Jake "the Claw" Van Cleve is? He is the owner of the secluded estate where the Batman Rogues Gallery have gathered to hear the testimony of Catwoman, Riddler, etc. in the "Who Killed Batman?" storyline. This is what the captions tell us. (And I noticed that the owner of the estate is not mention in #293, the Lex Luthor chapter.
As I always assumed it was the secret identity of Killer Moth, I never thought too much about "The Claw." But Killer Moth's alias is Cameron Van Cleer. Now that I've noticed this detail, I Googled Jake "The Claw" Van Cleve and I got a lot of results for Facebook pages for people who are really named Jake Van Cleve.
It seems like a bizarre detail for the writer to just make up. Is there an obscure Batman villain called The Claw whose secret identity it Col. Jake Van Cleve? Or is he an underworld figure nicknamed "The Claw"? Is he so obscure that he doesn't come up in a Google search?
Will "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?" ever give up all its secrets?
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Post by wildfire2099 on Dec 26, 2015 14:53:59 GMT -5
That story looks awesome... I'm definitely hunting done some late silver/early bronze Bat books once I get caught up on my piles (soon, soon...)
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Post by foxley on Dec 26, 2015 18:30:07 GMT -5
Does anybody know who Col. Jake "the Claw" Van Cleve is? He is the owner of the secluded estate where the Batman Rogues Gallery have gathered to hear the testimony of Catwoman, Riddler, etc. in the "Who Killed Batman?" storyline. This is what the captions tell us. (And I noticed that the owner of the estate is not mention in #293, the Lex Luthor chapter. As I always assumed it was the secret identity of Killer Moth, I never thought too much about "The Claw." But Killer Moth's alias is Cameron Van Cleer. Now that I've noticed this detail, I Googled Jake "The Claw" Van Cleve and I got a lot of results for Facebook pages for people who are really named Jake Van Cleve. It seems like a bizarre detail for the writer to just make up. Is there an obscure Batman villain called The Claw whose secret identity it Col. Jake Van Cleve? Or is he an underworld figure nicknamed "The Claw"? Is he so obscure that he doesn't come up in a Google search? Will "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?" ever give up all its secrets? I'm pretty good on Batman trivia (I even made it on to a quiz show with it as my specialist subject), and I'm pretty sure that Col. Jake "the Claw" Van Cleeve was invented just for this story. Maybe Roy Thomas or Kurt Busiek can do a tale telling us the hidden history of Col. Jake "the Claw" Van Cleeve, and how he came to organise this gathering of Gotham's greatest felons. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 27, 2015 0:06:28 GMT -5
Before I get into the review of Batman #291, I wanted to talk about one of the major reasons why, in retrospect, this is one of the most important Batman comic books I ever read. To me, anyway.  All the villains!  Just look at all those villains!  (I especially love this panel. Ras al Ghul in the foreground as Killer Moth, the Joker and Lex have their picture taken by the Cavalier! And there's Captain Stingaree in the background!)) I know there were earlier comics where a half-dozen or so villains would get together for a revenge scheme (The Sinister Six in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1, for example. The Flash Rogues Gallery did it a lot) but I'm wondering if this little epic is the first time where so many members of a single hero's Rogues Gallery got together. It became a bit of a tradition in the Batman comics for a while, with large groups of Batman villains getting together for a single purpose - Detective Comics #526, Batman #400 and Knightfall all come to mind. I knew a lot about some of these fellows from the Batman TV show - Riddler, Catwoman, Joker, Mr. Freeze, the Mad Hatter - and I had seen a few of the others in the comics here and there. But there were a lot of these people that I had never seen before. It was quite an informative and entertaining guide to the rich world of Batman and Gotham City. I'm going to go down the list and note where I knew the characters from: The Suspects:The Catwoman - I knew her from the TV show but I had seen her in the comics in The Joker #9. I'm also pretty sure I had seen her origin (from Batman #62) reprinted in one of those over-sized Limited Collector's Edition. The Riddler - From the TV show. But I had also read the first Riddler story in "Batman from the '30 to the '70s" and I had also read the great Riddler story in Batman #279.
Lex Luthor - I had seen him in The Joker #7, an issue or two of The Secret Society of Super-Villains and I'm pretty sure I had read the Superboy story where Lex went bald and blamed Superboy. I think it was reprinted in a Limited Collector's Edition and I had read it at a friend's house.
The Joker - From the TV show, but I had read The Joker #7 to #9, Batman #286, The Brave and the Bold #129 and #130 and several reprints, including "The Man Behind the Red Hood." The Judge:Ras al Ghul - This was the first time I ever saw Ras al Ghul. I knew the name because he's mentioned in Batman #257 (which guest stars his daughter Talia) and Detective Comics #439 (where the ghost that haunted Wayne Manor turns out to be Ubu, Ras al Ghul's muscular manservant). I've always liked the way author David V. Reed treated Ras like just another Batman villain, important enough to be the judge but not too full of himself that he would turn down the chance to hang out with dozens of Gotham Underworld figures. "Sure, I'll do it," he said when the organizers called. Within a few years, he was too snooty to do something like that. The Prosecutor:Two-Face - I had seen his origin but I think it was the comic strip version that was reprinted in a Limited Collector's Edition. And I also saw him in the Brave and the Bold (the same two-parter with the Joker), and also this comic had gone on sale just a few months before Batman #291:  The Jury:Poison Ivy - This storyline was very likely the first time I saw Poison Ivy. She was in The Secret Society of Super-Villains Annual at about the same time as Batman #293 and she had a cameo in SSOSV #10, and I might have seen that before I read Batman #292. The Mad Hatter - From the TV show, but this is the first time I saw him in a comic book.
The Spook - Batman #292 was the first time I ever heard of this character. I don't think I ever saw him in another comic book until three or four years ago when I finally got my own copies of Detective Comics #434 and #435.
Mr. Freeze - From the TV show. This was the first time I saw him in a comic book. One of my least favorite Batman villains. Scarecrow - I had seen his first appearance in a reprint and I had seen him in Joker #8. Signalman - This is the first time I saw him and I didn't see him in a comic again until a few years ago when I got my own copy of Detective #466. And that's it for Signalman for me. Spectators:I had never seen Tweedledee, Tweedledum, the Cavalier, the Clue-Master or Killer Moth before but I knew about some of them from Michael Fleisher's Batman Encyclopedia. Captain Stingaree, of all people, I knew from an issue of The Secret Society of Super-Villains:  I had never thought about it before but actually cataloguing these bozos makes me realize how many more villains they could have crammed in there! Catman, Black Spider, Clayface (Basil Karlo), Clayface (Matt Hagen), Johnny Witts, the Getaway Genius, Professor Hugo Strange, Dr. Tzin-Tzin, Double X, Dr. Death, The Terrible Trio (Fox, Shark, Vulture), Calendar Man, Firefly, Copperhead, Crazy Quilt, Professor Radium, the Spinner, Mr. Camera, Mr. Polka-Dot, the Zodiac-Master, Mirror Man, Dr. No-Face, the Penny Plunderer and so on and etc. (Well, technically not the Penny Plunderer because he's dead. And he's been pretty dead for a long time.) |
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Post by Action Ace on Dec 27, 2015 1:07:51 GMT -5
Back in 2015...
The cast of guest stars and villains for the last issue (#30) of Batman '66 has to be seen to be believed. The Allreds really outdid themselves with this issue.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 27, 2015 9:26:36 GMT -5
Back in 2015... The cast of guest stars and villains for the last issue (#30) of Batman '66 has to be seen to be believed. The Allreds really outdid themselves with this issue. I took my nephew to the comic book store last week (I haven't been in a comic book store for almost three years) and I bought the first new comics that I've bought in a while. I got a few recent issues of the adventures of Bunny Ears James Gordon Batman and I also got Batman '66 #30. Yeah, Batman '66 is as good as its reputation. |
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Post by foxley on Dec 27, 2015 17:30:30 GMT -5
I think the first big gathering of Batman foes in the comics was probably Batman #201 (May 1968 and so definitely influenced by the TV series) when Joker, Catwoman, Penguin, Mad Hatter, Cluemaster, Getaway Genius and Johnny Witts team-up to stop a new villain in town (Mr Esper) from eliminating Batman.
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 27, 2015 17:45:14 GMT -5
I think the first big gathering of Batman foes in the comics was probably Batman #201 (May 1968 and so definitely influenced by the TV series) when Joker, Catwoman, Penguin, Mad Hatter, Cluemaster, Getaway Genius and Johnny Witts team-up to stop a new villain in town (Mr Esper) from eliminating Batman. I was going to mention that. I just read it yesterday at the library in Showcase Presents: Batman, Volume Three. I love it that Johnny Witts and the Getaway Genius are at the table with the Joker, the Penguin and Catwoman! I also love the Mad Hatter wearing several different hats and also saying things like: "This is how it must feel to be in the Justice League!" after they vote on how to help Batman against out-of-town interlopers.  There had been smaller groups of six or seven villains here and there. But "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?" has eighteen distinct costumed villains! |
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 27, 2015 17:45:58 GMT -5
Johnny Witts looks a little like Montgomery Clift.
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Post by Calamas on Dec 27, 2015 18:51:36 GMT -5
Before I get into the review of Batman #291, I wanted to talk about one of the major reasons why, in retrospect, this is one of the most important Batman comic books I ever read. To me, anyway. . . . It means a lot to many of us. These issues showed up more than once in last year's 12 Days of Christmas. And:  The fourth and fifth comics I'd ever bought, in some order. Helped to hook me. |
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Post by earl on Dec 27, 2015 19:52:08 GMT -5
Is there an obscure Batman villain called The Claw whose secret identity it Col. Jake Van Cleve? Or is he an underworld figure nicknamed "The Claw"? Is he so obscure that he doesn't come up in a Google search? Will "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?" ever give up all its secrets? This looks like a job for Paul Dini! If it was me, I'd retcon that Col. Jake Van Cleve (aka The Claw) was the 'money launderer' for all the gangs. He doesn't do the big crimes, just cleans the money. This would explain how he is into everybody's business and why his estate or offices would be neutral territory for competing Gotham crime lords to do business. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 27, 2015 20:09:52 GMT -5
BATMAN #299 and down (reviews by Hoosier X) BATMAN #291"Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?: The Testimony of the Catwoman!" September 1977 Story: David V. Reed Art: John Calnan and Tex Blaidsell Coloring: Jerry Serpe Editor: Julius Schwartz I already described the set-up in a previous post. The first issue spends four pages on it. There's almost two pages of generic gangland figures talking about the rumors they've heard about the death of Batman. My favorite is the panel where the thugs are sitting by the pool with a couple of molls in bikinis and they're watching what appears to be a film of the Cavalier killing Batman. And the main gangster says:
… AND THIS LATEST ONE IS SIMPLY INCREDIBLE! THE CAVALIER NO LESS!
I love the way he says that! Of all people! The Cavalier! Haw Haw! The Cavalier doesn't get any respect. They let him snap the group photo because everybody knows he doesn't really need to be in it!  Yeah, the Cavalier goes back a long way.Finally, on page five, Selina Kyle – Catwoman – takes the stand.  She's in mourning, with a black veil over her face, and some of the bad guys are somewhat offended that she is mourning the death of Batman, a devoted foe of them all. Catwoman dismisses these concerns and tells them she will mourn if she wants to. Then she goes into her story. She had established a new identity as Madame Claudine, the famous couturier, and was hosting a fashionable salon in Gotham City. Then some crooks crashed the party and tried to rob her guests. And then Batman shows up and beats up the robbers. Catwoman (as Madame Claudine) just watches and enjoys the novelty of watching Batman operate as a spectator and not as a participant. Of course, he knows that Madame Claudine is Catwoman, and when he takes care of the bad guys, he lets her know that he's not fooled by her disguise. Catwoman claims she is trying to go straight and Batman says he will leave her alone as long as she's not up to something. But of course she's up to something! This is 1970s Catwoman, the Cat-Queen of Crime! So there can be no doubt! You could give 1950s Catwoman or 1980s Catwoman the benefit of the doubt. She wasn't always up to something. But not the Cat-Queen of Crime of the 1970s! Knowing that Batman is a persistent and observant fellow, she decides to leave Gotham and get as far away as possible as fast as she can manage. But while Catwoman is clearing out a lodge in the mountains (the Gotham Mountains, I presume) where she keeps her indispensable treasures and her pet jaguar, Batman shows up. He knew she was up to something! In the fight, Batman is knocked unconscious and Catwoman flees. But Batman is soon on her tail and during the car chase, both vehicles crash off a bridge and into the river (the Gotham River, I presume). Catwoman and the jaguar have managed to save themselves by scrambling on top of the big cat's floating wooden cage. Batman tries to pull himself onto the top of the cage but his weight would doom them all, so Catwoman STOMPS ON HIS HANDS WITH HER PURPLE HIGH-HEELED BOOTS until he lets go and sinks below the surface of the river (the Gotham River, presumably) and drowns. She felt bad about it. What was she supposed to do? Two-Face calls bananashenanigans! And he demonstrates. Jaguars come from Brazil and are sold in cages made from the wood of the Brazilian pepper tree. The wood of a Brazilian pepper tree is one and half times more dense than water. Which means the cage would sink like a rock! Poison Ivy leaps to her feet! NOT GUILTY! she says. The other members of the jury don't say anything. They just stand there. I guess they agree with her. Or perhaps Scarecrow's fear gas is seeping out and they are paralyzed with fear. (I love that panel where Poison Ivy jumps out of her seat to burst Catwoman’s bubble. In your face, Cat-Queen of Crime!) Catwoman yells at Two-Face, but to no avail. Posion Ivy's verdict stands. Ras al Ghul adjourns the court until the next session as Catwoman stalks off in a huff. Catwoman is clearly lying. I can't come up with any solution where she's merely been fooled or is mistaken. She just decided to walk in with some cockamamie story about framing Batman because … Two-Face says she wants better street cred. It's well-known in the Gotham underworld that Catwoman has a very strict rule that there's no killing by anybody in her gang. Which makes it hard for her to recruit. If it got around that she killed Batman then that would mean that she's changed her mind about killing and that means that all of Gotham's kill-happy street punks will be killing each other to be part of her gang. Or something. I didn't buy that when I was a kid. I just shrugged my shoulders and went on because so much of the story was so cool! And I still don't buy it. I think there are easier ways to let the underworld know that you're OK with killing. I mean, yeah, it's a comic book, and comic books are full of weird characters with weird motivations, and a lot of the time you just move along and don't think about it. And that's what I did for most of the last three decades. But over the last couple of days, I’ve developed a theory! Catwoman is investigating the death of Batman herself! She heard the rumors of his death and she's trying to figure out what happened to him. If he really is dead, she'll take care of the murderer herself! When she couldn't dig up anything through normal channels, she decided to get involved in the villains' judicial hijinks, hoping she could find out more at Col. Van Cleeve's secluded estate. If she gives testimony, then all eyes will be on her, and she can look at the spectators and note their reactions as she claims that she killed Batman. I suspect she was also planning to watch the other villains testify to see what she could find out. But there's a very good reason why she didn't stay for anybody else's testimony. BIG SPOILER AHEAD! I'm not usually too concerned about spoilers in 40-year-old stories, but this is a pretty big one. So anybody who's thinking they might buy this storyline soon and that they might prefer being surprised by the major story points should stop now and just go get it and read it. Catwoman realized during her testimony that Two-Face was actually Batman in disguise. He couldn't fool her. And since she knew that Batman was alive, she didn't need to view the testimony of the other villains and she didn't need to continue her investigation. She finished her testimony and then she argued with Two-Face at the end because she knew Batman was up to something and she didn’t want to do anything that would reveal Batman to the other villains. She went along with it to protect him even after she realized Two-Face was really Batman. And then she left. Did Batman ever know that she knew it was him? That's just another of the mysteries of "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?"
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Post by Hoosier X on Dec 28, 2015 13:43:07 GMT -5
BATMAN #299 and down (reviews by Hoosier X)
BATMAN #292"Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?: The Testimony of the Riddler!" October 1977 Story: David V. Reed Art: John Calnan and Tex Blaidsell Coloring: Jerry Serpe Lettering: Milt Snappin Editor: Julius Schwartz This comic book is very heavily devoted to not wasting your time! The premise is described in a couple of captions on the splash page (where the word "mini-series" is used to characterize "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?") and the first three panels on page two show us the villains gathered for the jury trial proceedings, the identities of the judge and jury, and that Two-Face is the prosecutor. Edward Nigma, the Riddler, is called to give his testimony in the fourth panel. Oh, Eddie! He's his usual enigmatic self, taunting Two-Face with riddles instead of answering directly and being cooperative. WHY IS MY CIGAR LIKE THE TESTIMONY I’M ABOUT TO GIVE? That's our Eddie! Two-Face and Ras al Ghul aren't having it. Ras warns him about being cited for contempt of court if he doesn't stop his bananashenanigans. (I would love to see Ras al Ghul say "bananashenanigans.") Come on, guys! What do you expect from the Riddler? You would think the other Batman villains would be a little more indulgent towards one of the more notorious members of the anti-Batman fraternity. But maybe not. The Riddler is well-known in our world even to people who don't read comics, but when I think of how the Riddler would be treated in the world of Gotham City, I think he might more likely be considered as a second- or third-rate villain at the same time he's thought of as a first-rate pest. The police probably hate him because they get letters and packages from him obliquely giving away the clues to his next crime and they can't figure them out! "Another package from the Riddler, a Teddy bear this time, wrapped in a ball of blur yarn. Call the Batman!" The villains don't like him too much either. (Notice that he was snubbed when the villains got together in Batman #201 to discuss how to save Batman from Mr. Esper.) He has no respect for them! The Joker can also be very abrasive, but you have to accommodate him because he's a crazy murderer who has left a trail of destruction behind him, a swathe of blood and anarchy through Gotham City that can't be ignored. Snub him and you might get a dose of gas that laughs you to death. Snub the Riddler and you'll get a note with a riddle about giraffes and Belgian beer. So, yeah, maybe it's completely understandable that Two-Face and Ras al Ghul aren't in the mood to be patient with Edward Nigma. So the Riddler goes into his story, how he staked out one of the suburban roads where he knew Batman would probably be traveling (you would think that somebody would have done this before or since) and his efforts are paid off in a few days when the Batmobile comes rumbling along. The Riddler tries to kill him with a trick mirror in the road (hoping Batman will think the reflection of the headlights are an oncoming car and will drive off the road to avoid it) but Batman knows that trick (who doesn't?) and he escapes the death trap by stopping the car. The Riddler's latest riddle appears on the mirror, which then explodes. (This is one of the Riddler's most ridiculously complicated riddles. The wordplay is very convoluted and obscure and, frankly, ludicrous. It involves the body of a man named Sholes being found in a boat foundering in the shoals (the Gotham Shoals, I presume) and somehow Batman figures out where the next crime is being committed. But the riddle and the solution are clever at the same time that they are SO RIDICULOUS that I think David V. Reed was writing a parody of a Riddler story, and getting away with it because this is not just a Riddler story, it’s the second chapter in a story about finding out what happened to Batman.) So Batman ends up on a Gotham side street where the Riddler and his gang are trying to rob an armored car. The Riddler expected his arrival and shoots at him with a machine gun. The Batman slumps to the ground! But while they are dealing with the armored car, Batman’s body disappears. The next time the Riddler and Batman meet, Eddie is dressed up as Bruce Wayne at an exclusive party for the Gotham City elite. While the Riddler's gang is robbing the guests, the Riddler pretends he's being held up as well. Then Batman shows up and starts beating people up, but he looks a bit startled when he sees Bruce Wayne at the party. The Riddler (still dressed as Bruce Wayne) can't resist the urge to leave another riddle for Batman and he pretends to find the note and, being very helpful as Bruce Wayne, gives the note to Batman, who immediately figures it out and drives off to thwart the Riddler. Eddie calls his gang and somehow sets up yet another death trap at a construction site where he blows up some dynamite and kills Batman. Two-Face is not impressed with Eddie's story, and he replies with a brain-teaser of his own: TELL ME, RIDDLER – WHAT DOES A POOR MAN HAVE THAT A RICH MAN NEED? Eddie has the answer: NOTHING! Which, according to Two-Face, is exactly what the Riddler's testimony adds up to. So the whole kit and caboodle hikes onto the grounds of the estate to a platform with a bunch of dynamite under it. The Riddler is grabbed and tied to the platform and the dynamite is set on fire! The Riddler yells that it's all true and Two-Face rather nonchalantly jumps through the flames to stand on the platform with the Riddler. You see, fire doesn't make dynamite explode. As Two-Face explains: DYNAMITE DOESN'T EXPLODE IN FIRE! It MERELY BURNS UP! IT CAN BE DETONATED ONLY BY ELECTRICAL SPARK OR PERCUSSION! So the Riddler's story is shown to be rubbish. The jury finds the Riddler "not guilty" and Ras fines him $25,000 for damages. And Lex Luthor is waiting in the wings. When I was a kid, I loved this story! (I still do.) But it did bother me a little bit that the Riddler, just like the Catwoman in the first chapter, was clearly lying and I just couldn't see what would be the motive. It seems like a really risky gamble without much gain. But back then, I didn't know as much about the Riddler's psychology. Several Silver Age Riddler stories had focused on this aspect of the Riddler's obsessions, but I hadn’t read them yet. Two-Face had mentioned it early in the Riddler's testimony: ONE MOMENT! IF YOU ACUALLY KILLED THE BATMAN, YOU'VE ENDED YOUR OWN CRIME CAREER – SINCE YOU CANNOT COMMIT A CRIME WITHOUT SENDING A RIDDLING CLUE TO THE BATMAN! The Riddler replies glibly that he can send any further clues to the Batman's grave. Now that I understand the Riddler a little better, I have no trouble rationalizing his foolish attempt to fool the Rogues Gallery. He has an uncontrollable obsession to match wits with just about anybody, and the higher the stakes, the better. So this is natural behavior for Edward Nygma. He comes up with a story and he submits his claim and he gets to play with the big boys. And as always for poor Eddie, he's bitten off more than he can chew. He's not in the same league with these people. Just as he always ends up in jail after tangling with the Batman, here he ends up tied to a pile of burning dynamite. (I love the bit where Ras al Ghul calls the Riddler an idiot. Ras can't believe he's associating with such a dimwit. Don't get too full of yourself, Ras. You’ve never done any better!) Next: A really SUPER chapter of "Where Were You On The Night Batman Was Killed?"
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