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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 7, 2021 15:01:52 GMT -5
OK, here's something that I've been pondering for the past few days: are the new Star Wars films, including The Force Awakens, canon? To clarify, I'm not talking about what Disney marketing has to say on the subject because obviously they're going to stress the importance of these films as being the "real" Star Wars sequels. But I'm a big fan of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories and in that realm of fandom we talk about Doyle's writing as being canonical, whereas all the other writers who came later -- many of whome have written fantastic stories about the master detective -- are considered non-canonical and therefore less important. Within Star Wars fandom there have always been different layers of cannon, with George Lucas's Episodes I - VI being the highest, most important canon, and stories from the so-called "expanded universe" being placed somewhere along the spectrum from semi-canonical to non-canonical. Given that Disney rejected Lucas's own story ideas for Episode VII and went with a totally different storyline for The Force Awakens (he's confirmed this in semi-recent interviews), and that none of the planned films are based on Lucas's story ideas, I've started to wonder whether they can really be considered canonical? I'm not really debating the overall merits of the six original Star Wars movies verses the new films, I'm just asking whether SW fans should consider a film like The Force Awakens to be the canonical Episode VII? Or, in reality, is it no more of an official Episode VII than, say, Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire novel? I hate to sound like a grumpy old man, but I try to ignore the Disney sequels. They don’t appear in my headcannon, to answer Confessor’s question succinctly. I’ve got the Episodes IV-VI of course at the top of the list in my canon rankings, but other things I’ll include are the prequel films next, followed by the movie novelizations, then the radio dramas, then the comic book adaptations, then Shadows of the Empire, then, The Han Solo Adventures by Brian Daley. Yes, really. I know they (The Han Solo Adventures) are not all that highly regarded by the general public, but I feel that they capture the feel of the original film better than most of the EU stuff out there. Plus, it (like Splinter of the Mind’s Eye) was written early on when, I am guessing, Lucas was probably paying more attention to the novels than later when they started cranking them out at a prodigious rate. They just "feel" canon to me.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jun 7, 2021 17:07:35 GMT -5
OK, here's something that I've been pondering for the past few days: are the new Star Wars films, including The Force Awakens, canon? To clarify, I'm not talking about what Disney marketing has to say on the subject because obviously they're going to stress the importance of these films as being the "real" Star Wars sequels. But I'm a big fan of Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories and in that realm of fandom we talk about Doyle's writing as being canonical, whereas all the other writers who came later -- many of whome have written fantastic stories about the master detective -- are considered non-canonical and therefore less important. Within Star Wars fandom there have always been different layers of cannon, with George Lucas's Episodes I - VI being the highest, most important canon, and stories from the so-called "expanded universe" being placed somewhere along the spectrum from semi-canonical to non-canonical. Given that Disney rejected Lucas's own story ideas for Episode VII and went with a totally different storyline for The Force Awakens (he's confirmed this in semi-recent interviews), and that none of the planned films are based on Lucas's story ideas, I've started to wonder whether they can really be considered canonical? I'm not really debating the overall merits of the six original Star Wars movies verses the new films, I'm just asking whether SW fans should consider a film like The Force Awakens to be the canonical Episode VII? Or, in reality, is it no more of an official Episode VII than, say, Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire novel? I hate to sound like a grumpy old man, but I try to ignore the Disney sequels. They don’t appear in my headcannon, to answer Confessor’s question succinctly. I’ve got the Episodes IV-VI of course at the top of the list in my canon rankings, but other things I’ll include are the prequel films next, followed by the movie novelizations, then the radio dramas, then the comic book adaptations, then Shadows of the Empire, then, The Han Solo Adventures by Brian Daley. Yes, really. I know they (The Han Solo Adventures) are not all that highly regarded by the general public, but I feel that they capture the feel of the original film better than most of the EU stuff out there. Plus, it (like Splinter of the Mind’s Eye) was written early on when, I am guessing, Lucas was probably paying more attention to the novels than later when they started cranking them out at a prodigious rate. They just "feel" canon to me. I agree with a lot of what you say here. In particular, I'm a fan of Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Han Solo novels by Brian Daley.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 7, 2021 22:14:28 GMT -5
My head canon is the original 6 movies, stuff written by Dave Filoni, Dark Empire, then the Zahn novels. The DIsney movies are just a (poor) alternate take.
I have hope that as they make more shows like the Mandalorian, and since the new trilogy actors don't seem too interested in continued to be in Star Wars, they eventually the movies will just be forgotten.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 22:19:55 GMT -5
My head canon is the original 6 movies, stuff written by Dave Filoni, Dark Empire, then the Zahn novels. The DIsney movies are just a (poor) alternate take. I have hope that as they make more shows like the Mandalorian, and since the new trilogy actors don't seem too interested in continued to be in Star Wars, they eventually the movies will just be forgotten. Ford, Fisher and Hammill weren't interested in doing more Star Wars in '83 after Jedi either, and look how that turned out... -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 7, 2021 22:23:55 GMT -5
yeah, but those are GOOD movies . I see the parallel, though. especially since the principals haven't really found much success since (Daisy Ridley was in a few things, but that more exposed her as a lousy actress more than showcased her talent). A guy can dream, though!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 22:29:21 GMT -5
yeah, but those are GOOD movies . I see the parallel, though. especially since the principals haven't really found much success since (Daisy Ridley was in a few things, but that more exposed her as a lousy actress more than showcased her talent). A guy can dream, though! We'll have to wait and see how fondly all those 6-18 years for whom this was their first exposure to Star Wars in theatres (or to Star Wars in general) remember these as they age. Our generation will be dead and gone before the final verdict on whether these movies remain popular is reached. There was a time in the 90s where Star Wars was almost a forgotten franchise and only hardcore fans even noticed its existence because it had fallen out of the pop culture zeitgeist almost completely before things like the Dark Horse Comics/Zahn Novels and Special Editions revived interest and raised it's pop culture profile again leading into the prequels. So we will have to see what happens 20 years or so after Force Awakens was released before we know the true tale of the legacy of the Disney movies, because they will ebb and flow in the mass culture just as the original trilogy did, and it will be the current young generation that will be the final arbiter of that legacy, not us. -M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 7, 2021 22:54:34 GMT -5
If that's the case, than I think my wish may come true.. because everyone in that generation I know is far more interested in 'Baby Yoda' than anything from the movies... and he can't really exist for long in the same universe those movies do.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 8, 2021 16:03:49 GMT -5
My head canon is the original 6 movies, stuff written by Dave Filoni, Dark Empire, then the Zahn novels. The DIsney movies are just a (poor) alternate take. I have hope that as they make more shows like the Mandalorian, and since the new trilogy actors don't seem too interested in continued to be in Star Wars, they eventually the movies will just be forgotten. I really have to get a subscription to Disney+ so I can finally watch The Mandalorian!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 18:58:29 GMT -5
I wouldn't count out cameos by characters in the upcoming Rogue Squadron movie (which is the only current SW project set at the same time as the Sequel Trilogy).
And those movies made 4.5 billion dollars at the box office, no one is forgetting them anytime soon.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 9, 2021 9:38:46 GMT -5
Yeah, but that may never happen again (certainly not any time soon) thanks to covid.. right now, it's all about steaming content.
Besides, what would have a better chance? 3 MORE movies with those characters, or a reboot featuring Baby Yoda, Ahsoka, and maybe the Rebels crew? If Nostalgia is the driving factor, I think that stuff will generate more of it, AND potentially appeal more to older fans. But we'll not see that for a while for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2021 20:21:53 GMT -5
Why would you have a reboot? The Ahsoka series looks to be Rebels 2.0 based on her Mando appearance. And this is the third time we've been told that there will be no more Star Wars (Saga/Episode/Skywalker) films and like before, I suspect we'll see Daisey Ridley as Rey again. It's just a matter of time before Broom Boy seeks her out for training.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 11, 2021 7:46:52 GMT -5
I'd rather see Ahsoka and Baby Yoda start a new Jedi temple than continue with Rey
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 8:07:37 GMT -5
I'm most interested in the show side of things with the reveal of Thrawn by Ahsoka. He's already made it into the animated canon for Disney, plus the new Zahn novels. Seeing live action Thrawn intrigues me the most, plus the potential intersections with the Mandalorian, Boba Fett, and of course Ahsoka.
I'm wary that Disney will somehow squash the sheer genius we've seen so far with the Mandalorian by trying to go overboard with the new shows, but trying to keep my hopes up. If they want to bring back any of the characters from the last trilogy, I'd rather see them in an animated show. Clone Wars cartoon made a lot of characters more likeable/interesting to me than in the prequels (e.g. Anakin).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 8:15:09 GMT -5
Do you have Harmy's DeSpecialized Editions? I have all three films on memory sticks, which I can play on my TV. They're fantastic. I'd love to get them, but they require downloading files from sites I'm not sure I trust... It would probably not be that much trouble to get them and burn them on DVDs, but up to now I never managed to summon the motivation. I sure wish Disney would reward Hammy with a load of cash and use his despecialized versions to produce a set of DVDs featuring the original trilogy. It would satisfy... well, everyone, essentially. I watch the originals on the 2006 DVD releases, the "Limited Edition" versions that have the original editions as bonus discs. I love that first movie does not say "Episode IV" on this copy, it's the early version before they added that. While these are far from pristine copies, not bad at all to my eyes, but I still watch them on an old 27 inch CRT type TV!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 11, 2021 8:19:26 GMT -5
I'm most interested in the show side of things with the reveal of Thrawn by Ahsoka. He's already made it into the animated canon for Disney, plus the new Zahn novels. Seeing live action Thrawn intrigues me the most, plus the intersections with the Mandalorian and Boba Fett. I'm wary that Disney will somehow squash the sheer genius we've seen so far with the Mandalorian by trying to go overboard with the new shows, but trying to keep my hopes up. If they want to bring back any of the characters from the last trilogy, I'd rather see them in an animated show. Clone Wars cartoon made a lot of characters more likeable/interesting to me than in the prequels (e.g. Anakin). Yeah, the return of Thrawn is a storyline I'm really excited to see play out
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