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Post by badwolf on Feb 19, 2015 10:24:13 GMT -5
As for stuff I didn't like, I hated both Korvac and Avengers/Defenders. And apart from historical value there isn't much to Lee/Kirby, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 10:54:43 GMT -5
Based on my age bracket, the best stories were from the early Lee/Kirby Run and the Kurt Busiek's run and Kree/Skrull Saga was 2nd and 3rd on my list. I did not read 1/3 of the stories on this list and I'm a big fan of the JLA/Avengers due to the beautiful artwork that was presented throughout this series. I did not read Under Siege at all and wasn't available to me because the store that I go to at the time this series constantly sold them out.
My top 5
1) Lee/Kirby Run
2) Kurt Busiek's Run
3) Kree/Skrull War
4) Avengers/Defenders War
5) Squadron Supreme
JLA/Avengers for Artwork Only.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 19, 2015 10:58:00 GMT -5
Under Siege definitely deserves great consideration, but does focus pretty narrowly on Captain America, rather than the team as a whole. I disagree with this. There is a large focus on Cap and the team is in disarray, but the story starts with a focus on Dane Whitman and Hercules, follows through with Herc's epic beating, has an entire issue featuring The Wasp and Scott Lang against the Absorbing Man, and then a lot of pulling the team together moments with Monica and Dr Druid.
Plus, there's the whole Moonstone conspiring against Zemo subplot.
I always felt that story revolved around Cap... it's not a bad thing, just how it felt to me. The fact that there are many layers are why it's a great story  @ Scott - I totally agree with most of your list... I'd put Lost in Space Time very close to the top, and definitely the best West Coast story. I'd call Busiek's the best run, myself, with Stern's a very close 2nd. I never liked the Mantis stuff, so that wouldn't be on my list at all. |
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Feb 19, 2015 11:38:40 GMT -5
I absolutely loathe Mantis, but I love Kang even more than that. So the Celestial Madonna still ranks high for me despite how much I truly despise Mantis.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Feb 19, 2015 11:42:27 GMT -5
You know my answer man, I have extolled this story-line every time it gets mentioned-Bride of Ultron, but it's like picking a favorite child for me-the Nefaria saga, the Korvac saga, the Death of Thanos in Ann 7/MTIO Ann 2 all defined my comics reading as a kid and made me a lifelong comic fan. The period between 140-191 (with annuals and tie ins like MTIO Ann. 2 and SVTU #9) is the sweet spot for the Avengers for me. The tail end of Englehart, the arrival of Perez, Shooter, Starlin, Byrne, Hellcat, Roxxon, Serpent Crown, Attuma, Doom, rebirth of Wonder Man, Graviton, Ultron, Grim Reaper, Jocasta, Nefaria, Thanos, Warlock, The Collector, The Guardians of the Galaxy, Gyrich, Ms. Marvel, the Wundagore saga, Arsenal (Ann #9 with art by Don Newton) etc. etc. it's just one classic story after another (with a few forgettable inventory stories thrown in because of the DDD). But then I also love classic Thomas/Buscema and the earlier Englehart stuff (Kang & Mantis.Avengers/Defenders War) and of course the Busiek/PErez run for Heroes Reborn is what drew me into organized fandom on the computer The Old AML and WCAML I was part of) so I have fond memories of that too. I am one of the rare Avengers fan who isn't crazy about Stern's run and the Under Siege arc. I thought it was solid, but Buscema's work then even with Palmer was a pale shadow of his classic Avengers stuff or even his Conan stuff and I didn't like a lot of the characters Stern focused on as much as some of the more classic line ups (part of this was the advent of the WCA who I felt stole a lot of the best pasts of a classic Avengers line up and left the heart of the team divided into 2 separate entities each of which was less than the previous whole was. So I can't say there is a bad choice on the list, but still my favorite is the Bride of Ultron even though it is more for nostalgic reasons than any kind of objective evaluation of quality. -M Mate this is, almost exactly, how I feel about the Avengers. I started with 170, the issue with Cap and Beast talking at the start while Cap worked out, ending with Beast waltzing off with the massive dumbbell Cap was straining to lift. I'd read smatterings as a youngster but this issue really spoke to me for some reason, I loved the camaraderie, the verbal bantering, and the individual dynamics of the group, all facets I've always felt the Dreaded Competition lacked in their JLA book/team. I managed to acquire a reasonable number of back issues over the next few years, and got to read so many of those outstanding stories from the mid to late 70s, and even a few of the older through some reprint title whose name sadly evades my ancient brain. In the end I voted the Thanos Saga, just one of my favourite stories period, though any of the Perez arcs come close seconds, but have to admit to being "meh" about the Kree/Skrull War and Under Siege. The latter was fine but I do remember feeling let down with their run as a whole, Palmer drowns Buscema(though I do understand NOW that John was only doing breakdowns so no surprise) and some of my least favourite team members populate the books. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 19, 2015 11:46:24 GMT -5
Sounds like I need to read Under Siege as highly regarded as it is in this thread. But I again, am not a versed Avengers reader and never really have stayed on any team title for very long before I get bored. For me in teams, the story has to be the bigger draw over the characters because there isn't a large amount of focus on one character, unless there's just a single antagonist. Plus I like cosmic, so Celestial Madonna, and the newer Celestial Quest and Infinity Avengers minis from early 2000's come to mind.
I also became interested in some Avengers stories from the Avengers cartoon that was on Netflix at one time, especially Ultron. I may have even started a thread at CBR at the time, but obviously now that information is unavailable.
I voted Thanos Saga, since Celestial Madonna is not a choice.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 19, 2015 11:50:25 GMT -5
I absolutely loathe Mantis, but I love Kang even more than that. So the Celestial Madonna still ranks high for me despite how much I truly despise Mantis. You know thinking on your statement, I am not sure if it is Mantis for the reason I like Celestial Madonna and Celestial Quest or if it's just that whatever Mantis is in seems to be cosmic or space opera. I may in my opinion be very indifferent to her, despite liking a lot of the stories she is a part of. And Kang is badass in what I have read of his appearances. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 19, 2015 12:00:09 GMT -5
I agree with coke & comics about the Thanos Saga being less related to the Avengers than the other choices. But what? No love for Celestial Madonna? Thats my favorite. Hear, hear! A rare instance of a retcon not only done right, but actually enriching the source material! (Englehart pulled the stunt again when he explained the Beyonder). |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 19, 2015 12:06:27 GMT -5
I gotta say I'm utterly perplexed by the love for the Lee/Kirby Avengers. It's been quite a while since I've read it, but my recollection is of it being distinctly second-tier Lee/Kirby.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Feb 19, 2015 12:27:38 GMT -5
I agree with coke & comics about the Thanos Saga being less related to the Avengers than the other choices. But what? No love for Celestial Madonna? Thats my favorite. Hear, hear! A rare instance of a retcon not only done right, but actually enriching the source material! (Englehart pulled the stunt again when he explained the Beyonder). As I mentioned above I read Celestial Madonna because I had read Celestial Quest but had no prior context of older Avenger stories or issues to know at the time that it retroactive continuity. Sure there were some references I didn't know that may not have been fully explained, but that's nothing new when just diving into most any title when I started reading comics. In this case, I just enjoyed the story itself. What in Celestial Madonna were they trying to "fix"? |
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Post by badwolf on Feb 19, 2015 12:32:37 GMT -5
I gotta say I'm utterly perplexed by the love for the Lee/Kirby Avengers. It's been quite a while since I've read it, but my recollection is of it being distinctly second-tier Lee/Kirby. It's a lot of slugfests, really. The plot twists are hand-wavey in the extreme, with both heroes and villains pulling "magical" gadgets out of thin air to combat whatever's been put against them. I mean I don't expect accurate science from this period but in this series it was really excessive. Then there's Captain America's constant pining over Bucky...  It doesn't compare at all to FF, Spider-Man, et al. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 19, 2015 12:38:49 GMT -5
This was tough. I voted for The Korvac Saga, but The Fall of Hank Pym and The Bride of Ultron are up there, and so is Under Siege, for that matter.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 19, 2015 12:41:49 GMT -5
I gotta say I'm utterly perplexed by the love for the Lee/Kirby Avengers. It's been quite a while since I've read it, but my recollection is of it being distinctly second-tier Lee/Kirby. It's a lot of slugfests, really. The plot twists are hand-wavey in the extreme, with both heroes and villains pulling "magical" gadgets out of thin air to combat whatever's been put against them. I mean I don't expect accurate science from this period but in this series it was really excessive. Then there's Captain America's constant pining over Bucky... It doesn't compare at all to FF, Spider-Man, et al. Yep. That was kind of my point. FF was Lee/Kirby at their best (though it took a while to get there). Thor was right on its heels (again it took a while to get there and Tales of Asgard was probably better than the main book for quite a while). The Avengers and Captain America were a step below. Their X-Men was pretty dire. It's been so long since I've read anything but the early issues of the Hulk that it's not fair for me to say anything about that. FF and Spider-man were clearly the cream of the crop of the Marvel age. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 19, 2015 12:41:47 GMT -5
I agree with coke & comics about the Thanos Saga being less related to the Avengers than the other choices. But what? No love for Celestial Madonna? Thats my favorite. Hear, hear! A rare instance of a retcon not only done right, but actually enriching the source material! (Englehart pulled the stunt again when he explained the Beyonder). Avengers also holds the undisputed best retcon ever award or Avengers Forever, which wiped out the horror of Timeslide/The Crossing. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 19, 2015 12:44:41 GMT -5
I gotta say I'm utterly perplexed by the love for the Lee/Kirby Avengers. It's been quite a while since I've read it, but my recollection is of it being distinctly second-tier Lee/Kirby. I agree with you. Maybe the people voting haven't read it in a while either and forgot how mediocre it was. |
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It doesn't compare at all to FF, Spider-Man, et al.
