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Post by EdoBosnar on Apr 19, 2021 15:17:26 GMT -5
Instead of laying out every reason why I firmly believe this was the worst wrong turn the franchise ever took, I'll provide you with a reviewer that sums it up far better than I ever could (though, a word of caution: the "humorous" schtick he wraps it all up in is more than a little disturbing and has not aged well in a post-Ariel Castro world). Give it until 1:53 to start dropping knowledge. (...) I agree that the Mr. Plinkett/Red Letter Media review of Phantom Menace (and the sequel reviews of the other two prequels) is a simply fantastic, must-see dissection. However, as someone who watched them not long after they were released, I think you're being charitable about the 'humorous schtick'/framing device not aging well - I didn't find it all that amusing when it was still 'fresh' (and it's completely unnecessary - maybe it's supposed to be some kind of additional meta-commentary on the prequels?) |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 19, 2021 15:35:53 GMT -5
Instead of laying out every reason why I firmly believe this was the worst wrong turn the franchise ever took, I'll provide you with a reviewer that sums it up far better than I ever could (though, a word of caution: the "humorous" schtick he wraps it all up in is more than a little disturbing and has not aged well in a post-Ariel Castro world). Give it until 1:53 to start dropping knowledge. (...) I agree that the Mr. Plinkett/Red Letter Media review of Phantom Menace (and the sequel reviews of the other two prequels) is a simply fantastic, must-see dissection. However, as someone who watched them not long after they were released, I think you're being charitable about the 'humorous schtick'/framing device not aging well - I didn't find it all that amusing when it was still 'fresh' (and it's completely unnecessary - maybe it's supposed to be some kind of additional meta-commentary on the prequels?) Yeah...the schtick is pretty awful and really undercuts the ability to enjoy the review. |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 19, 2021 15:57:56 GMT -5
I'm familiar with RLM's video about The Phantom Menace, and I've never regarded at as anything other than bitter SW fans* going down a checklist of what they thought Lucas should have done with the story he intended to tell. It was not a mistake or accident. If the story of how the Skywalker saga began had to be told, TPM was the best way that could have been produced, taking its time to draw the major players together for valid, in-universe reasons, instead of the way AOTC, ROTS and the horrifying sequel trilogy were slapped together.
*...and have ranted over and over again about George Lucas (usually based on their perspective introduced in the Phantom Menace review) on several of their Plinkett reviews, Half in the Bag, and even Best of the Worst segments. Obsessive.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 19, 2021 19:09:43 GMT -5
I'm familiar with RLM's video about The Phantom Menace, and I've never regarded at as anything other than bitter SW fans* going down a checklist of what they thought Lucas should have done with the story he intended to tell.
I don't think that describes the review I linked to at all. It provides some very insightful reasons why it's generally poor storytelling. Not a fanboy rant at all after the first minute and change. You're welcome to still enjoy the film, but the arguments he makes are pretty logical and well founded, and they capture what I struggle with in the film, myself. |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 19, 2021 19:13:27 GMT -5
Instead of laying out every reason why I firmly believe this was the worst wrong turn the franchise ever took, I'll provide you with a reviewer that sums it up far better than I ever could (though, a word of caution: the "humorous" schtick he wraps it all up in is more than a little disturbing and has not aged well in a post-Ariel Castro world). Give it until 1:53 to start dropping knowledge. (...) I agree that the Mr. Plinkett/Red Letter Media review of Phantom Menace (and the sequel reviews of the other two prequels) is a simply fantastic, must-see dissection. However, as someone who watched them not long after they were released, I think you're being charitable about the 'humorous schtick'/framing device not aging well - I didn't find it all that amusing when it was still 'fresh' (and it's completely unnecessary - maybe it's supposed to be some kind of additional meta-commentary on the prequels?) Oh, I didn't enjoy that part at the time either, but it reads as even more poorly considered and trigger-worthy in the world today, where we have had a high profile incident of a man doing exactly what he pretends to be doing. This was early on in the history of RLM. I don't even think they had the name yet. He'd gotten a lot of attention with his review of Star Trek: Generations (which was brilliant) and, like most sequels in a franchise, he miscalculated what had been successful about the first installment and got the essence wrong, severely overdoing the creepy dude in a shed thing. The only reason that had been funny the first time around was that he was demonstrating this superb understanding of Trek science while mispronouncing all the words like an inbred moron. Anyway, I don't mean to detract from this thread's intended focus. Sorry, Confessor! |
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Post by Confessor on Apr 20, 2021 3:46:05 GMT -5
Anyway, I don't mean to detract from this thread's intended focus. Sorry, Confessor! Not at all. It was an interesting aside. Myself, although I think that the prequels generally sucked, I still think TPM is the best and most "Star Wars-y" of them. But it's still a heavily flawed creation. The plot is boring, the acting terribly wooden, the script excruciatingly bad, and the characters are mostly uninteresting. In addition, it's a film that for some reason is chock full of offensive (even back in 1999) racist caricatures. To me, the two most interesting aspects of TPM are Darth Maul and the reappearance of the Sith, along with Palpatine's devious scheming and manipulation of the Galactic Senate. The big lightsaber duel at the end is also pretty kick-ass. I'm old friends with the son of the film's principle cameraman, Trevor Coop (the film was shot at Leavesden Studios, which is about a 20 minute drive from my house). Anyway, I remember Trevor telling me even as the film was shooting how bad the script was and how the British crew couldn't quite believe what a poor director George Lucas was. Of course, being a dyed-in-the-wool fan I chose to disregard that piece of insider info as the misinformed opinion of someone who didn't "get" Star Wars, but when the film came out I immediately saw what he meant. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 20, 2021 7:13:39 GMT -5
Anyway, I don't mean to detract from this thread's intended focus. Sorry, Confessor! Not at all. It was an interesting aside. Myself, although I think that the prequels generally sucked, I still think TPM is the best and most "Star Wars-y" of them. But it's still a heavily flawed creation. The plot is boring, the acting terribly wooden, the script excruciatingly bad, and the characters are mostly uninteresting. In addition, it's a film that for some reason is chock full of offensive (even back in 1999) racist caricatures. To me, the two most interesting aspects of TPM are Darth Maul and the reappearance of the Sith, along with Palpatine's devious scheming and manipulation of the Galactic Senate. The big lightsaber duel at the end is also pretty kick-ass. I'm old friends with the son of the film's principle cameraman, Trevor Coop (the film was shot at Leavesden Studios, which is about a 20 minute drive from my house). Anyway, I remember Trevor telling me even as the film was shooting how bad the script was and how the British crew couldn't quite believe what a poor director George Lucas was. Of course, being a dyed-in-the-wool fan I chose to disregard that piece of insider info as the misinformed opinion of someone who didn't "get" Star Wars, but when the film came out I immediately saw what he meant. Yeah, I pretty much agree with your TPM assessment. Also, I didn't like how Annakin saved the day by accident (Jar Jar got a bit too lucky in the battle, also) and I really didn't like that Lucas made Annakin the creator of Threepio. Unnecessary and silly. Lucas tried too hard to tie everybody and everything from the original trilogy together in the prequels, and as a result, made the Star Wars universe seem smaller. On the other hand, Ian McDiarmid was brilliant as Palpatine, Darth Maul, and this was the best light sabre duel out of all of the Star Wars movies, owing largely to Ray Park's athleticism. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 20, 2021 8:10:29 GMT -5
Not at all. It was an interesting aside. Myself, although I think that the prequels generally sucked, I still think TPM is the best and most "Star Wars-y" of them. But it's still a heavily flawed creation. The plot is boring, the acting terribly wooden, the script excruciatingly bad, and the characters are mostly uninteresting. In addition, it's a film that for some reason is chock full of offensive (even back in 1999) racist caricatures. To me, the two most interesting aspects of TPM are Darth Maul and the reappearance of the Sith, along with Palpatine's devious scheming and manipulation of the Galactic Senate. The big lightsaber duel at the end is also pretty kick-ass. I'm old friends with the son of the film's principle cameraman, Trevor Coop (the film was shot at Leavesden Studios, which is about a 20 minute drive from my house). Anyway, I remember Trevor telling me even as the film was shooting how bad the script was and how the British crew couldn't quite believe what a poor director George Lucas was. Of course, being a dyed-in-the-wool fan I chose to disregard that piece of insider info as the misinformed opinion of someone who didn't "get" Star Wars, but when the film came out I immediately saw what he meant. Yeah, I pretty much agree with your TPM assessment. Also, I didn't like how Annakin saved the day by accident (Jar Jar got a bit too lucky in the battle, also) and I really didn't like that Lucas made Annakin the creator of Threepio. Unnecessary and silly. Lucas tried too hard to tie everybody and everything from the original trilogy together in the prequels, and as a result, made the Star Wars universe seem smaller. On the other hand, Ian McDiarmid was brilliant as Palpatine, Darth Maul, and this was the best light sabre duel out of all of the Star Wars movies, owing largely to Ray Park's athleticism. I agree with shaxper that The Phantom Menace steered the whole franchise in the wrong direction; it set in on the path of continuity overload and an obsession with absurd minutiae. It also made the Star Wars universe much smaller and less interesting by having pretty much everything and everyone connected in some way. Your example of Anakin having built Threepio is a good example of that unfortunate trend. However, of the three prequels, it is still the one I consider the best movie. It had a few characters one could root for, and for all the implausibility of its plot twists and the ponderousness of its story, it turned out to be tale of heroism and sacrifice. Attack of the Clones, meanwhile, had as its main character a whiny and pretentious teenager with a strongly unpleasant stalker vibe. The Jedi council featured therein was a bunch of self-righteous pricks who seemed to insist on fanatically sticking to the rules even when it made no sense to do so, and to just do as they pleased the rest of the time. Poor Obi-Wan was like a cork floating on a sea of stupidity in that one, and Padmé was reduced to the role of "the girl". Who are we supposed to root for, in this extended preview of a video game? It had no soul. Great ideas for Lego toys, though.
Revenge of the Sith showed promise for its first half thanks to the camaraderie between Obi-Wan and Anakin, but then decided to ignore all the ambiguity that it had developed as far as political legitimacy goes and went in full dumb mode when someone realized that there was less than an hour left and we still had to turn Anakin evil and get him chopped to pieces in a volcano. "Ooooh, I am emotionally scarred because my mother, whom I left to rot as a slave for a decade, died, and now my girlfriend might some day die too! I think I'll go murder some babies". The waste compactor monster in A New Hope had a more believable motivation! The Jedi were once again acting like idiots, including Yoda, and Obi-Wan was once again left to pick up all the pieces. And talk about a lousy teacher... Palpatine knew all about Anakin's emotional torment but Obi-Wan never noticed? Of the three movies, TMP is the only one that didn't have me walk away feeling disappointed. |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 20, 2021 8:15:10 GMT -5
Of the three movies, TMP is the only one that didn't have me walk away feeling disappointed. I loved seeing the opening letter crawl on the big screen for the first time as the music blared. I think that's honestly all I enjoyed out of the prequels. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 20, 2021 8:35:06 GMT -5
Of the three movies, TMP is the only one that didn't have me walk away feeling disappointed. I loved seeing the opening letter crawl on the big screen for the first time as the music blared. I think that's honestly all I enjoyed out of the prequels. You didn't like the two-bladed lightsaber? I thought it looked darn good, especially combined with Ray Park's martial arts skills! But I know what you mean about seeing the letter crawl on the big screen after so long... I felt the same when hearing the scream of TIE fighters in The Force Awakens. "Nostalgia is strong with this one". |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 20, 2021 9:00:21 GMT -5
You didn't like the two-bladed lightsaber? I thought it looked darn good, especially combined with Ray Park's martial arts skills! I'm a big believer that less is more, especially when it comes to the Star Wars universe. What impressed me most about the original trilogy was all that it didn't show or do. We got a sampling of some off-the-beaten-path worlds and aliens and were left to imagine what else was out there. In the same way, the lightsaber duals were masterpieces of restraint. Two fully trained Jedi warriors going at it--what COULDN'T they do? And so the idea of them barely moving while waving understated energy swords was impressive. It suggested an immense battle of wills and minds happening beneath the surface that was far more impressive than the physical battle. A double lightsaber flies in the face of all that. Why not just create a machine gun that shoots light sabers? |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 20, 2021 9:21:42 GMT -5
You didn't like the two-bladed lightsaber? I thought it looked darn good, especially combined with Ray Park's martial arts skills! I'm a big believer that less is more, especially when it comes to the Star Wars universe. What impressed me most about the original trilogy was all that it didn't show or do. We got a sampling of some off-the-beaten-path worlds and aliens and were left to imagine what else was out there. In the same way, the lightsaber duals were masterpieces of restraint. Two fully trained Jedi warriors going at it--what COULDN'T they do? And so the idea of them barely moving while waving understated energy swords was impressive. It suggested an immense battle of wills and minds happening beneath the surface that was far more impressive than the physical battle. A double lightsaber flies in the face of all that. Why not just create a machine gun that shoots light sabers? Harh! That's a very good point!!! I think that what I liked about Darth Maul's duel is that it wasn't a CGI one; the man really moves like that. But I get your point about the restraint of the first Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader duel; far from being "two old men poking each other with glowing sticks", it looked as if the weapons they were handling were incredibly dangerous. For all that I liked seeing Darth Maul kicking people in the face, I would never try that kind of stunt while holding an actual lightsaber; it sounds like a good recipe for losing a limb or three. |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 20, 2021 11:00:51 GMT -5
Lucas tried too hard to tie everybody and everything from the original trilogy together in the prequels, and as a result, made the Star Wars universe seem smaller. I've certainly heard the opinion that the OT's version of the galaxy already had its major players and events so tied, that it had the soap-opera-y small feeling at that time. That entire conflict is springboarded and centered (in ANH) around the survivors of two warring religious groups (Vader and Kenobi) both having a personal history. The lead male and female (Luke and Leia) were also tied to these two players (in ANH, Leia is sent to find Kenobi--an ally of her father, while Luke, Owen & Beru have always known / known about "Ben"). From TESB-forward, the Emperor and Vader's lone obsession--their key to final galactic domination is trying to corrupt the one person who happens to be connected (via Kenobi) and related (to Vader). In the grand scheme of things, nothing else really matters (including the Death Stars), because everything is all about Skywalkers and the Force. That is the kind of ancient fairy tale template Lucas wanted to use, and as a result, that "galaxy" and its events are controlled by and chained to only a few people. In the end, the rest could be seen as chess pieces (just ask Harrison Ford about that). Over the years, some SW fnas have gone on and on about the "boring" politics of TPM, but I've found they are among the same group who obsess on lightsaber fights (more, more, more) and think anyone named Fett is so "badass" (personally, I found Boba Fett to be what he was originally meant to be in TESB--a single purpose villain. Beyond that, its all fan-service production I do not care about). I think Lucas was absolutely correct in grounding TPM's events / Palpatine's rise to power in political manipulation, as it would be the only logical manner for anyone to come to control the innumerable members of a galactic senate and the worlds they represent. Some critics did not want that, instead thinking it should have been Palpatine cackling and shooting lightning around, with more Maul appearances.
Obviously, that would not have made an ounce of sense, and having the restraint to keep the real Maul setpiece for the tail-end of the film paid off in the context of the story's build-up, and for audiences. So, whatever anyone chooses to say about TPM, I will always see it as the last strong, structurally sound SW movie produced. |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 20, 2021 11:22:19 GMT -5
However, as someone who watched them not long after they were released, I think you're being charitable about the 'humorous schtick'/framing device not aging well - I didn't find it all that amusing when it was still 'fresh' Yeah. the Plinkett Prequels shows, with a man who is a kidnapper / serial killer / drug addict / man into bestiality (longtime viewers of RLM will know what that refers to) was not amusing or "edgy".
Of the three movies, TMP is the only one that didn't have me walk away feeling disappointed.
Agreed.
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 20, 2021 14:52:24 GMT -5
Star Wars #36Cover dated: June 1980 Issue title: Red Queen Rising!Script: Archie Goodwin Artwork: Carmine Infantino (pencils)/Gene Day (inks) Colours: Petra Goldberg Letters: John Costanza Cover art: Carmine Infantino (pencils)/Bob Wiacek (inks) Overall rating: 7 out of 10  Plot summary: While orbiting the planet Monastery, the Millennium Falcon is captured by an Imperial Star Destroyer. Princess Leia narrowly escapes detection by hiding in one of the Falcon's smuggling compartments, while Han Solo and Chewbacca are apprehended. Using a laserwave link between C-3PO and R2-D2, Leia manages to contact Luke Skywalker, who is on Monastery attempting to persuade The Order of the Sacred Circle to side with the Rebellion instead of Darth Vader and the Empire. She warns Luke that Vader is not simply visiting Monastery as a diplomat, but is instead scheming to entrap the Rebels. Later, Luke arrives at the Temple of the Sacred Circle to give his presentation to the elders, but as he enters, Domina Tagge reveals that the elders have already decided against the Rebellion. Luke objects to the decision, but Darth Vader seizes the opportunity to challenge the young Rebel to a lightsaber duel. Domina surprises them both, however, by forbidding them to duel within the temple, instead arranging that they should fight in the nearby Crystal Valley. Unknown to both Vader and Skywalker, Domina has manipulated the pair into duelling at this location in the hope that the two combatants will both be killed, thus eliminating both of the Tagge family's enemies. Meanwhile, Baron Orman Tagge has broken free of the life support capsule that he was imprisoned in on board Vader's Star Destroyer and has hidden himself in the Millennium Falcon. Leia manages to rescue Han and Chewie, but as the trio escape with C-3PO in the Falcon they are confronted by Orman, who forces them to land the freighter on Monastery. Comments: The Red Queen story arc continues to build from an already interesting story into a pretty action-packed adventure, with plot twists aplenty. Admittedly, some of the dialogue on the opening few pages comes across as kinda clunky, but this issue manages to hold the reader's attention throughout, with its action and intrigue. In particular, the scheming of Darth Vader is a lot of fun to read and I especially like how the Dark Lord uses the Force to brainwash the circle of elder's into allowing Domina to persuade them to hand over supreme authority to her. It's like the Jedi mind trick used by Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars: Episode IV – A New Hope on steroids! Talking of Vader, it's worth noting that this comic, which was on sale two months before The Empire Strikes Back opened in cinemas, represents the first time in the Marvel chronology that Luke and Vader stood lightsaber to lightsaber. Of course, the pair don't actually duel in this comic, but nonetheless, having Luke and Vader face-to-face in the three issues that make up this story arc was a really big deal at the time and seeing them solemnly march off to do battle on the final page of this issue creates a fantastic cliffhanger. Domina Tagge continues to fascinate, with her devious plotting and double dealing. We learn in this issue that she has been given some training in the Force by Vader and we also learn more about how her favourite brother, Orman Tagge, sent her away to the Order of the Sacred Circle in an attempt to keep her innocent of the Empire's dealings. She reflects in this issue that that innocence has been corrupted by her desire to see both Luke and Vader dead. Like I said in my review of last issue, Domina is arguably the most interesting member of the Tagge family and one of the very best characters created by Archie Goodwin during his tenure on Star Wars. In addition, I love that this issue sees Orman revived from his unconscious state and resurfacing as a threat to our heroes. While I'm heaping praise on Goodwin's writing, let me just reiterate that I really like the way in which he writes Princess Leia. He has consistently nailed her "voice" in the comic, while writing her as a gutsy, feisty and resourceful character, very much as she is in the Star Wars films, in fact. This issue is no exception, as the princess undertakes a daring rescue of Han Solo and Chewbacca, with the trio escaping Vader's Star Destroyer using rocket jet-packs that Leia has purloined. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Leia is the member of the central cast that Goodwin consistently writes best. On a related note, Goodwin's writing of Han's dialogue seems better and more in character than usual here too. Something else of note is that Goodwin informs us in this issue that Luke has recently learned to swim. It was revealed back in issue #15, during the Doomworld story arc, that, having grown up on the desert planet of Tatooine, Luke had never leaned to do this. When that issue came out, a number of readers wrote in to say that this contradicted events in the Splinter of the Mind's Eye novel, so I wonder if this was Goodwin slyly attempting to rectify that particular continuity goof and bring the Marvel comic in line with Alan Dean Foster's book? As for the artwork, the thing that first jumps out at me is that Petra Goldberg has somehow managed to colour the saber cat that attacks Domina incorrectly on some pages. The beast is supposed to be cerise, as it is on the front cover and other interior pages, but on pages 6 and 7 it is coloured black/blue instead, somewhat like a panther. Carmine Infantino's pencils are of much the same standard as ever, which is to say that the panel-to-panel storytelling is basically faultless, while his grip on accurately rendering the various pieces of Star Wars technology and other props is as shaky as ever. Like last issue, Infantino continues to draw the triangular grill on Vader's face mask much too wide and, while his highly stylised take on the Imperial stormtrooper's iconic armour has improved a little over the course of his run on the book, there are still plenty of inaccuracies present in his depictions of the Empire's foot soldiers here. Still, some of the panels in this comic really are beautifully drawn and Infantino's dynamic and exciting front cover must have really leapt out at kids browsing the spinner rack in early 1980. Overall, this is another above average issue of Star Wars that sees the Red Queen saga hotting up and building to an exciting finale. Continuity issues: - On pages 6 and 7 the saber cat is incorrectly coloured black/blue instead of cerise.
Favourite panel:  Favourite quote: "Be bold...be creative! You know...lie!" – Han Solo imparts some advice to C-3PO on how to fool the Imperials about to board the Millennium Falcon. I agree that Vader’s scheming is fun to read, and I liked how Luke was able to sense the Force at work and knew that Vader must be manipulating the Order’s Council. I also agree that Leia’s rescue of Han was cool. I thought that Leia and Han both had some good lines in this issue. It seems to me that Threepio should have gone with Luke on that mission, to translate Artoo’s beeping, plus, being a protocol droid, it seems like a diplomatic mission would be right up his alley. I liked that Han had false bottoms put in his smuggling compartments, in case the Empire got wise to the trick he pulled of in the film – which of course they did. They mentioned that one of the Tagge brothers wanted Domina to marry into the Imperial family. Based on all of the subsequent Star War movies, there’s no evidence that there really is an Imperial family. Not necessarily a continuity error, but it just seems like an odd comment, based on subsequent movies. Not that Goodwin could have known that, of course. I also loved how Wermis steals the stormtrooper’s theory as to who was behind the chaos on the Star Destroyer (he theorized it was a Tagge spy) and Wermis is also primarily concerned with trying figure out a way to avoid the blame for what happened. |
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