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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 13, 2017 14:23:37 GMT -5
I was discussing Plastic man on another thread and one of the answers implied that if I didn't read the the Jack Kole version, I might not like it. It makes me think about characters and titles that were only successful under one creator or one team like New Gods. I thought the fourth world titles were great but it seems that no other creator could make it " work".
On the other hand, Batman, Spider-man , Superman and other properties have passed hands and have stood the test of time. Is it the property or can the right artist or writer convert something into a hit? Please give examples.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 13, 2017 15:14:47 GMT -5
I don't agree with the premise that only Cole did Plastic Man well. Because, as I've said, I think Baker's run was incredible. The problem with Plas seems to be that he isn't the type of character that modern super-hero readers want to read about.
That said, I believe that the right creative team can make pretty much any character worth reading. The proof in that is Animal Man. I really don't think anyone would have thought that was a viable property before Grant Morrison got ahold of it.
As to the Fourth World...I dunno. I've heard that Simonson's run was good. But I haven't read it.
Overall, I think that the problem is less that creators can't make the properties work and more that super-hero comics readers are a superstitious and cowardly and insular lot who are seldom going to go outside their comfort zone and thus will read the "McDonalds" characters of Batman, Superman, Spider-man even if they are barely palatable.
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Post by MDG on Mar 13, 2017 15:23:49 GMT -5
I don't agree with the premise that only Cole did Plastic Man well. Because, as I've said, I think Baker's run was incredible. The problem with Plas seems to be that he isn't the type of character that modern super-hero readers want to read about. Agreed--I think Pasko and Staton did a good job on the character as well, but the "real" Plas doesn't really fit into the DC universe. Also, it was Cole's version of the character that worked; I don't think he worked on the book for it's whole run. Similarly, Fawcett had a whole stable of people working on the Captain Marvel family, but they never seemed comfortable at DC as well. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,390
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Post by shaxper on Mar 13, 2017 15:26:10 GMT -5
I've generally stopped believing in characters and runs. It's the talent that matters. Doug Moench's Batman, Frank Miller's Batman, and Scott Snyder's Batman are three different characters with only trappings in common.
Not sure this helps, but it's what I've come to understand about comicdom.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 15:26:24 GMT -5
Green Arrow. A back up character for over two decades who became a hit thanks to Denny O'Neil & Neal Adams then continued to be an important character for DC under Mike Grell & others. Today he even has his own TV show.
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 13, 2017 15:28:17 GMT -5
I don't agree with the premise that only Cole did Plastic Man well. Because, as I've said, I think Baker's run was incredible. The problem with Plas seems to be that he isn't the type of character that modern super-hero readers want to read about. That said, I believe that the right creative team can make pretty much any character worth reading. The proof in that is Animal Man. I really don't think anyone would have thought that was a viable property before Grant Morrison got ahold of it. As to the Fourth World...I dunno. I've heard that Simonson's run was good. But I haven't read it. Overall, I think that the problem is less that creators can't make the properties work and more that super-hero comics readers are a superstitious and cowardly and insular lot who are seldom going to go outside their comfort zone and thus will read the "McDonalds" characters of Batman, Superman, Spider-man even if they are barely palatable. I'll take your word for it. But why isn't Plastic Man being published now? |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 13, 2017 15:30:45 GMT -5
I've generally stopped believing in characters and runs. It's the talent that matters. Doug Moench's Batman, Frank Miller's Batman, and Scott Snyder's Batman are three different characters with only trappings in common. Not sure this helps, but it's what I've come to understand about comicdom. Batman and Spider-man are generally thought to be great characters, almost bulletproof. I can't imagine them ever going away. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 13, 2017 15:32:27 GMT -5
I don't agree with the premise that only Cole did Plastic Man well. Because, as I've said, I think Baker's run was incredible. The problem with Plas seems to be that he isn't the type of character that modern super-hero readers want to read about. Agreed--I think Pasko and Staton did a good job on the character as well, but the "real" Plas doesn't really fit into the DC universe. Also, it was Cole's version of the character that worked; I don't think he worked on the book for it's whole run. Similarly, Fawcett had a whole stable of people working on the Captain Marvel family, but they never seemed comfortable at DC as well. I absolutely agree with this. Plas doesn't fit into the DCU. Nor does the Marvel Family. I also think both properties have an aesthetic that the creator has to understand and be able to work within for the book to work. And again, it's not an aesthetic that works within the DCU or that most people reading DC comics are interested in reading. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 13, 2017 15:39:00 GMT -5
I don't agree with the premise that only Cole did Plastic Man well. Because, as I've said, I think Baker's run was incredible. The problem with Plas seems to be that he isn't the type of character that modern super-hero readers want to read about. That said, I believe that the right creative team can make pretty much any character worth reading. The proof in that is Animal Man. I really don't think anyone would have thought that was a viable property before Grant Morrison got ahold of it. As to the Fourth World...I dunno. I've heard that Simonson's run was good. But I haven't read it. Overall, I think that the problem is less that creators can't make the properties work and more that super-hero comics readers are a superstitious and cowardly and insular lot who are seldom going to go outside their comfort zone and thus will read the "McDonalds" characters of Batman, Superman, Spider-man even if they are barely palatable. I'll take your word for it. But why isn't Plastic Man being published now? Because modern super-hero readers, don't, as a general rule, want anything other than what they've had for the last three dozen years. Most super-hero readers aren't willing to experiment with anything outside their comfort zone. Baker's run was idiosyncratic, even for Plastic Man. Again...I go back to the McDonald's comparison. For every innovative exciting restaurant that fails there are a dozen Mickey-D's serving the same warmed-over almost edible pablum that people buy because they don't want a challenge. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, et al., can be interesting, but seldom are. Because they're going to sell whether they're interesting or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 15:39:27 GMT -5
Most of the Golden Age characters(outside of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Capt America & Archie) didn't enjoy much success even in the Silver Age.
Most of DC & Marvels' Silver Age characters are still being published.
Will they disappear after those who grew up reading the Silver & Bronze Age die off? Fantastic Four hasn't been published for awhile.
And do you think the 90's heroes (Valiant/Image) will be around as long as those from the 60's?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 13, 2017 15:40:37 GMT -5
I've generally stopped believing in characters and runs. It's the talent that matters. Doug Moench's Batman, Frank Miller's Batman, and Scott Snyder's Batman are three different characters with only trappings in common. Not sure this helps, but it's what I've come to understand about comicdom. I wish I could like this a million times. I don't know if it's possible to agree with something more. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 15:43:42 GMT -5
Agreed--I think Pasko and Staton did a good job on the character as well, but the "real" Plas doesn't really fit into the DC universe. Also, it was Cole's version of the character that worked; I don't think he worked on the book for it's whole run. Similarly, Fawcett had a whole stable of people working on the Captain Marvel family, but they never seemed comfortable at DC as well. I absolutely agree with this. Plas doesn't fit into the DCU. Nor does the Marvel Family. I also think both properties have an aesthetic that the creator has to understand and be able to work within for the book to work. And again, it's not an aesthetic that works within the DCU or that most people reading DC comics are interested in reading. It may be that these types of characters don't "fit" well in a shared universe concept. They work much better as their own concept without having to interact with others IMO. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 13, 2017 15:49:11 GMT -5
Well, couldn't someone publish Plastic Man as a separate book apart from the DCU ?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 13, 2017 16:07:11 GMT -5
Well, couldn't someone publish Plastic Man as a separate book apart from the DCU ? Well...DC could. But they won't. I'm trying to think of the last time DC published a super-hero comic outside the DCU. I'm pretty sure it's be a LONG time. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 13, 2017 16:08:43 GMT -5
I know it doesn't fit the time frame but Booster Gold was published without a preview in another book.
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