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Post by sabongero on Apr 11, 2016 14:24:31 GMT -5
It has been ten years ago since Marvel's Civil War came out. It's about the Superuman Registration Act, but it boils down to two different philosophies. Deontology against Utilitarianism.
The two main things at looking at things being good or bad, or right and wrong have been worked out over the centuries. They’re usually known as deontology and utilitarianism. In a nutshell, it all comes down to, deontology is all about doing your duty and always doing the right thing. Not thinking about what the consequence of doing it. It’s always thinking about what you should do under any circumstances. For example, you should always tell the truth, no matter what happens, whatever you think might come as a result, you always tell the truth. Utilitarianism you don’t consider that side of thing. You purely look at what the consequences of your actions will be. You don’t worry about whether what you are doing is right, you don’t worry about things like truth and that sort of thing. What you think about is what will happen at the end as a result of doing or saying whatever you are saying. They are polar opposites. They’re also both right. They’re just ways of looking whether things are good and bad or right and wrong. What we should do as professionals when we have difficult problem and difficult decisions to make is we should look at the lenses of both things and think about what is the right thing to do, your duty every time. For example look at your code of conduct and see what your professional body is telling you to do. Also, you need to consider what the consequences of that action will be. It’s not as simple as always saying as following the code of conduct to the letter of what it is. For example part of the nursing code of conduct is following the law. If you were a nurse in Nazi Germany the law would have said that you did some horrible things to your patients, and clearly that would have been unethical for a nurse to do. You’d have to think about the consequences of following that rule would be.
Although the mini series has elevated Iron Man's status from a little above B Level Super Hero, to one of the most popular superheroes, and most hated superheroes at the time.
I agree with Captain America's side on this. Who's philosophy do you favor or agree with?
Just a friendly reminder. Please feel free to disagree, but let us remain cordial with each other and have a great discussion. Thanks.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 11, 2016 14:35:21 GMT -5
Do we have to be cordial towards Mark Millar and Joe Quesada?
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Post by sabongero on Apr 11, 2016 14:39:14 GMT -5
Do we have to be cordial towards Mark Millar and Joe Quesada? How can I disagree with someone who has Vermillion squad leader and ace, Max Sterling as an avatar. Well for Mr. Joe "One More Day" Quesada... feel free to be overtly uncordial if you disagree with his editorial mandate. As for Mark Millar... you can also be uncordial. As for Steve McNiven, well please feel free to not to be too uncordial towards him as I really loved his artwork on the series. |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 11, 2016 14:56:03 GMT -5
I kid, of course. I have no problem with the basic ideological conflict of Civil War, but I felt it was imposed upon characters that didn't fully fit it and that it was, to some extent, a theft of the concept behind Watchmen.
But I digress.
Theoretically, everyone should be held to some level of oversight, but we never find the right balance, and thus that oversight often ends up being misguided and more intrusive than helpful. There's also the issue of who performs the oversight and whether they are qualified to judge, let alone whether or not their motivations are sound.
Making superheroes beholden to politicians is a terrible terrible idea. Could you imagine Mitch McConnell refusing to approve a nominee to The Avengers until Obama is out of office, or Oracle being repeatedly subpoenaed by a House Panel in the hopes that this time she'll give them some political ammo against Clinton?
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Post by sabongero on Apr 11, 2016 15:15:21 GMT -5
@ Shaxper - "Who watches The Watchmen?" Good point on the heist of the Watchmen concept. Who would be overseeing the whole process. There's not going to be a third party agency that will be objective. It's still going to be a government oversight.
I disagreed with Tony because then he and his group became an arm of the government to be used. Tony comes across as a fascist in the series, by going by the law and enforcing the law. It's kind of like my example of the nurse in Nazi Germany.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 11, 2016 15:24:46 GMT -5
I disagreed with Tony because then he and his group became an arm of the government to be used. Tony comes across as a fascist in the series, by going by the law and enforcing the law. It's kind of like my example of the nurse in Nazi Germany. Yeah, I really wish Millar had delivered a more even-handed debate. It's hard not to see Tony as wrong in Civil War, and yet there are merits to his perspective that were not properly represented. With a thoughtful system of oversight, he could have been on the side of right. The heroes in the Marvel Universe generally behave like heroes because that's what the reader wants, but in the real world, I'd want some oversight too if folks were walking around in costumes just fighting, killing, and destroying in accordance with their own particular values. Could you imagine such viligantes inspired by Trump, trying to take down immigrants and Muslims?? Then again, it now occurs to me that, to an extent, the debate raging in Civil War is also a theft of X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills. Mutant registration / superhero registration. Same essential idea beyond one being a race that you are born into, and one being a career that you choose. |
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Post by Bronze Age Brian on Apr 11, 2016 15:38:37 GMT -5
Wow, it's been 10 years already?
Seems like yesterday when Civil War came out. Time flies when you raise kids, I suppose.
I don't recall all of the specifics of why Cap and gang wanted to go anti-registration (other than protecting family), but I thought Stark's idea of agreeing to the act was reasonable at best, in that it could help avert future tragedies by superheroes, and by not accepting it could risk a much more worse scenario.
But I didn't agree with Stark's way of enforcing it, and the idea that those against registration were then targets for arrest never sat well with me.
Darn you, New Warriors...this is why superheroes can't have nice things!
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 11, 2016 16:02:54 GMT -5
The upcoming movie is certainly going to be ugly, just as the mini series was ugly. These guys play to win and hunting Caps team was the logical move after their refusal to go along. The series reads like Cap is the freedom fighter and ends with him just tearing up NYC for the right to continue to fight other heroes. It was bigger than just what Iron man wanted. The government would have out lawed ALL of them without some action.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 11, 2016 16:04:38 GMT -5
Also, there is a rumored death in the movie. My guess is War Machine bites it.
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Post by Bronze Age Brian on Apr 11, 2016 16:27:57 GMT -5
Also, there is a rumored death in the movie. My guess is War Machine bites it. Another rumor says that three Avengers will die. If so that is kind of a lot and would be shocking. I'll guess that Captain America dies, based off of the end of the Civil War comic. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 11, 2016 16:42:01 GMT -5
Also, there is a rumored death in the movie. My guess is War Machine bites it. Another rumor says that three Avengers will die. If so that is kind of a lot and would be shocking. I'll guess that Captain America dies, based off of the end of the Civil War comic. I don't think Cap will die because this isn't the comic world. The movie audience won't accept the easy way that Heroes are brought back the was us abused comic fans do. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Apr 11, 2016 17:47:56 GMT -5
Who's philosophy do you favor or agree with? Neither, one negates the moral subject's ability to update moral values, the other directly denies the possibility to evolve, setting everything in stone. I prefer someone capable of adapting and defending, whatever progress has been achieved up to that point, because progress is always at risk. Ortega, Meditaciones, 106-107. |
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Post by tonystark1 on Apr 11, 2016 18:05:59 GMT -5
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 11, 2016 18:38:03 GMT -5
I agree with Captain America's side on this. Who's philosophy do you favor or agree with? In the comic-book world, I was rooting for Cap's side of course; they were, after all the underdogs. We always root for the underdog. Were it the real world, I'd be 100% behind Iron Man. In the real world, masked vigilantes (or anyone else) have no business taking the law in their own hands, especially not when it leads to repeated disasters like the ones we witness regularly in pretty much all Marvel titles. Civil War, from the point of view of storytelling, suffered in my view from the dichotomy between the make-believe world of superheroes and the real-world considerations that were suddenly brought to it. Apart from the often gross mischaracterization of several big name heroes (has Reed Richards ever been written so out of character???), the constant need to readjust one's expectations and willing suspension of disbelief didn't make the experience all that pleasant. Yeah, I rooted for Cap's side... but his arguments didn't hold water. He was like an over-the-top NRA advocate who's actually ready to shoot at people to preserve his unrestricted access to firearms of any and all calibers. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 11, 2016 18:38:18 GMT -5
I have trouble separating the concept of Civil War with the ridiculous set up... The New Warriors were NOT a rookie team.. far from it... and Speedball the most veteran among them. Never mind that the Avengers did far, far worse than Stamford 20 times over. So did every other super team.
On topic... in theory, Superhero registration seems pretty reasonable.. on par with background checks and licenses for guns. I think if the MU were a real place, we'd have something like it. The protest all stemmed from assuming the government was at best incompetent and at worse corrupt and evil, and that's really not a place we should be (Though, sadly, we kinda are).
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