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Post by rberman on Nov 20, 2019 12:11:06 GMT -5
Seems like a discussion worthy of being carved out into its own thread, or perhaps joined onto another Liefeld thread, if such exists. Otherwise it's going to be difficult to find all these good thoughts later through this forum's limited search engine.
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Post by impulse on Nov 20, 2019 12:56:31 GMT -5
1.) Leaving aside his style, which is a subjective thing, he was busted, multiple times, swiping from other artists. Not making homages, as he tried to make excuses, but wholesale swiping of poses and page layouts. Much of it was far more blatant than the worst of Rich Buckler. That didn't sit well with many corners. 2.) He joined Erik Larsen is dismissing the contributions to stories and characters, to the point of claiming Louise Simonson made no contributions to Cable and other New Mutants/X-Force characters. His viewpoint was the drawing was all that counted, which is ridiculous. Personality and character background help give life to the character, beyond the simple design. 3.) He was busted by his partners for using company resources for personal projects, in violation of the terms they had set up. They met to vote him out when he simultaneously resigned, leading to a he-said, she-said in regards to whether he was kicked out or quit the group. 4.) For all the talk of creator's rights and fair compensation and ownership, he ran his own imprints as work for hire and rolled back on people owning characters created within the book. Wow, I wasn't aware of all of that. If that is all true, then yeah, very understandable a lot of people dislike the guy. Seems like a discussion worthy of being carved out into its own thread, or perhaps joined onto another Liefeld thread, if such exists. Otherwise it's going to be difficult to find all these good thoughts later through this forum's limited search engine. On the other hand, moving an interesting conversation that came about organically to another thread is a surefire way to kill momentum and kneecap the discussion and is not the first time it's happened in this thread. You make a good point about proper grouping, though. Maybe someone could clone the relevant posts into the larger thread, or if they must be moved, wait until the topic has shifted to something else as usually happens quickly? My two cents.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 13:05:56 GMT -5
There is a Rob Liefled appreciation thread found here if anyone is interested. -M
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 20, 2019 13:38:57 GMT -5
I used to wonder about the Rob Liefeld and Image hostility myself. I think the Image idea was admirable anyway... not my cuppa (nor is Liefeld's work), but I respected/respect Image, though from a distance.
Generally I don't like artists fighting or undermining/attacking artists, it feels wrong, especially noxious is the superficial or jealousy aspect if it's there. But hating a style or seeing something as shameless pandering and not good for the form is acceptable. I saw some Batman not by Liefeld that is so over-exaggerated and destructive of the character in my opinion... it was just a bad joke of what Batman was in a way as bad or worse than even the '50s jolly-goofy Batman. Unfortunately that gets attention as 'breaking new ground' or hot as a commodity somehow with people stocking away multiple copies in a warehouse just in case it turns out to be 'important'.
I try to take in all sides and opinions. Those who like Liefeld style comics like something I don't... some people like music artists I find nothing in. As artists shouldn't fight artists, and ape should not kill ape, I think fans should try to keep from attacking someone else's likes and enjoyments. I used to rag on funny-animals with genitalia fans and artists, but there are even some of those I have respect for: Fritz, Omaha, Albedo... Cutey Bunny never got that explicit in my experience, and then in contrast there are those things that are mostly just a copy of a copy of a copy. Liefeld seems to be somewhat in that ballpark... I'd say a lot of modern Japanese comics and cartoons are also like that. Lots of enthusiasm but lack of time put in learning skills, or even lack of opportunity to learn those skills many of the older artists had?
Commercial success does not entitle anyone to critical respect, that's like saying because Chef Boyardee is the most successful chef his creations are the culinary K2! I think Family Circus the newspaper comic is utter garbage, but it's still going and successful, and I don't mean to vilify Bil Keane or his son in any way.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 20, 2019 15:03:31 GMT -5
Typo, I meant more money.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 20, 2019 15:04:12 GMT -5
There is a Rob Liefled appreciation thread found here if anyone is interested. -M I was searching for it all Over but couldn’t find it.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 20, 2019 15:37:42 GMT -5
There was a certain level of professional jealousy involved in the criticisms of Image, at the time, though they also had a healthy dose of hypocrisy and spin doctoring. They were all well compensated for their work at Marvel, yet equated themselves to Kirby and guys who were really exploited. So, they did come across, at times, as overly pampered crybabies. It wasn't all of them, either. Larsen was probably the worst offender; but McFarlane and Liefeld were nearly as vocal in the comic press. Valentino, Silvestri and Lee were fairly mature and reasonable in their statements, speaking more to controlling their own destiny than citing questionable grievances.
Two of their biggest professional critics were Peter David and John Byrne. David pointed out some of the hypocrisy in some for the statements made, vs how they were treated by editors at Marvel and also in respect to the writer issue. He also pointed to Lee, Valentino and Silvestri as not being guilty of things he lobbed at Larsen, McFarlane and Lee (Portacio was involved in family issues and wasn't very publicly involved with the launch of Image). Byrne attacked them for doing the same thing they did at Marvel, just renamed. That came across as rather glass house-oriented, given that Byrne was then doing things like Next Men, Danger Unlimited, Torch of Liberty and babe, all of which were derivative of his work at Marvel. The Comics Journal attacked them because they were superhero guys going off to do more disposable superhero stuff, rather than do the Great American Comic Book (whatever that may be).
After a while, they came under fire for the ridiculous number of late books. This drew tons of heat from Diamond and Capitol, not to mention their clients. A lot of pre-orders were tied up in books that weren't shipping and the two big distributors made threats of financial penalties if they didn't do something about it. Their first act was to cut loose a bunch of non-core titles and creators. They eventually got things under a semblance of control. That didn't stop Liefeld from at least advertising projects that were never delivered (or that he even had rights to publish, in some cases).
Most of this died down by the end of the 90s, apart from criticism of how bad most of their Heroes Reborn stuff was (especially Liefeld's Cap). Once Marvl ended that, things seemed to settle down, apart from the internal issues between Liefeld and the others and even that seems water under the bridge, there.
Image and the individual partners had their learning curve and some were more guilty of youthful arrogance than others.
I do think, though, that much of their financial success had less to do with their content and names and more to do with market conditions and timing. They announced the launch at the height of the speculator boom and people went nuts speculating on new titles from Marvel's stars. They also didn't risk any money of their own, as Malibu paid to publish the books, for a cut of the profits. For them, it wasn't a risk as these guys had a high enough profile to guarantee significantly higher sales than their regular books. They made enough to switch to color comics across the board and launch Ultraverse. The Image guys got a huge cut , making some of them millionaires. So, they weren't exactly taking the same risks as Colleen Doran or Jeff Smith. Had they launched a couple of years later, after the speculator bust, I suspect their sales wouldn't have been nearly as impressive.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 20, 2019 17:25:41 GMT -5
Too true. And some people just like negative attention. Some people enjoy trolling for the sake of it. Some people just love to complain! Too true on it being trendy to rip on something. Case in point, the band Nickelback is constantly trashed for their music's aesthetic, repetition and samey-nature, and juvenile lyrics. It became almost a meme to say they suck. Granted, it was all true in their case, but still. Yeah I would agree that Rob is the Nickelback of comics. Funny enough I remember reading that the lead singer, pretty much lets it roll off his back and takes in stride much like Rob. While there can obviously be real criicisms about Rob (like already mentioned in this thread), I think the vast majority of his haters probably are ignorant of all of it, and just spam the infamous Capt America panel and that's where they base their opinion. Me personally I feel about the same as what Icc posted that started this conversation. But I also learned things about him from other posters here I didn't know. And Nickelback isn't that bad. I mean they're not The EaglesI summon the protect spell against Cei-U's wrath!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2019 17:45:28 GMT -5
Too true. And some people just like negative attention. Some people enjoy trolling for the sake of it. Some people just love to complain! Too true on it being trendy to rip on something. Case in point, the band Nickelback is constantly trashed for their music's aesthetic, repetition and samey-nature, and juvenile lyrics. It became almost a meme to say they suck. Granted, it was all true in their case, but still. Yeah I would agree that Rob is the Nickelback of comics. Funny enough I remember reading that the lead singer, pretty much lets it roll off his back and takes in stride much like Rob. While there can obviously be real criicisms about Rob (like already mentioned in this thread), I think the vast majority of his haters probably are ignorant of all of it, and just spam the infamous Capt America panel and that's where they base their opinion. Me personally I feel about the same as what Icc posted that started this conversation. But I also learned things about him from other posters here I didn't know. And Nickelback isn't that bad. I mean they're not The EaglesI summon the protect spell against Cei-U's wrath! The official band name for the act you reference is "(If You Paid Five Cents For This Crap You Will Want Want Your) Nickelback", but people only reference the the part outside the parentheses. I think it's admirable, even prescient, for them to have named their band in such a truthful manner, you rarely get such truth in advertising in the music industry. As for Liefeld, I respect Rob for doing Rob, but among the pros I have met who have worked with him and spoken of him, I have rarely heard a good word about how he treats collaborators, bullpen staffers, editors, etc. and how he has often tried to use his influence/connections to black list those in the industry who had less status than him that tried to call him out for his behavior (often with little success but it is the attempt that reveals character, not the results), and I tend to weigh how you treat others more importantly than any talent or success you may have had. -M
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Post by badwolf on Nov 20, 2019 17:49:43 GMT -5
I have never really understood the "dislike" for Liefeld. As Icctrombone says, believing in himself and achieving success where many others did not and becoming a recognizable "name" in an industry which is known for using, chewing up and spitting out the carcass of artists and writers is admirable. Liefeld must truly love comics or why else continue in a field where everyone is scorning and making fun of you? I could only wish to have achieved half of what Rob has accomplished. While I don't go out of my way to buy Liefeld issues I won't just ignore his stuff either. The dislike for Liefeld appears to have three prongs: 1) He lacks traditional art skills. He doesn't know which muscles actually exist, where the joints of a human are, or how they are articulate. He can't draw feet (which severely limits his compositional options) and can only draw a limited number of facial expressions, primarily the toothy grimace. He spawned a wave of imitators, and even compelled his predecessors to imitate him, because he sold well. So it's really a reaction against what the medium became under his influence. This first is the only thing that affects me as a comics reader. The other stuff is between other people and not my business, and I don't feel the need to take it on. But I genuinely find his art laughably bad, hideous and hard to look at. I really don't think many are bandwagon jumpers.
I'm surprised to hear that Grant Morrison liked his work, since he wrote a whole double-size issue parodying it (Doom Force Special #1).
And I have nothing against Image. One of their earliest titles was The Maxx, which was brilliant. And they continue to release great books.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 21, 2019 6:38:44 GMT -5
My original post was my attempt to bring a spotlight to the Alan Moore comments towards comic book movies, and not really towards Liefeld. It struck me more that Liefeld looked like he was disillusioned by Moores bitterness for the comic genre.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 21, 2019 7:03:53 GMT -5
It's kind of sleazy to release a new comic and say that it has a variant cover by John Buscema who's been dead for over ten years.
There I said it.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 21, 2019 8:38:03 GMT -5
My original post was my attempt to bring a spotlight to the Alan Moore comments towards comic book movies, and not really towards Liefeld. It struck me more that Liefeld looked like he was disillusioned by Moores bitterness for the comic genre. I don't go out looking for stuff about writers/artists but everything I've heard second hand about him or from Alan Moore himself always seems to comes off as some emo kid.
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Post by kirby101 on Nov 21, 2019 8:47:45 GMT -5
It's kind of sleazy to release a new comic and say that it has a variant cover by John Buscema who's been dead for over ten years. There I said it. Hopefully, his estate is paid for it.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 21, 2019 9:10:12 GMT -5
It's kind of sleazy to release a new comic and say that it has a variant cover by John Buscema who's been dead for over ten years. There I said it. Hopefully, his estate is paid for it. Emo is a nice way to put it. I think he’s depressed.
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