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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 26, 2019 11:54:42 GMT -5
A story like Watchmen was shocking when it was released but since 1986, it's been homaged and the concept has been done over and over again.
It's like eating lobster every day. You would get used to and sick of it after a while.
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Post by rberman on Mar 26, 2019 11:56:41 GMT -5
A story like Watchmen was shocking when it was released but since 1986, it's been homaged and the concept has been done over and over again. It's like eating lobster every day. You would get used to and sick of it after a while. Likewise Star Wars or The Matrix or Sgt Peppers or Citizen Kane. When a work of art is full embraced by the culture, the awe it originally evoked is inevitably lost on later generations.
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Post by MDG on Mar 26, 2019 12:03:11 GMT -5
A story like Watchmen was shocking when it was released but since 1986, it's been homaged and the concept has been done over and over again. It's like eating lobster every day. You would get used to and sick of it after a while. Maybe people should ask: Why hasn't DC (or Marvel for that matter) put out anything else that's broken through to public consciousness like Watchmen or Dark Knight? We're talking 30+ years!
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 26, 2019 12:07:27 GMT -5
I have to say that I think The Ultimates By Millar and Hitch rates right there with Watchmen and DK.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2019 12:35:48 GMT -5
I have to say that I think The Ultimates By Millar and Hitch rates right there with Watchmen and DK. Have to disagree, on that one. i think it has moments that are up there; but, is a rather disjointed work that sacrifices story for spectacle. It's cinematic influence is plastered all over it; but, that cinematic influence is for your more typical action movie genre than deeper drama. I'd point more to Miracleman and JSA: The Golden Age, not to mention Starman as being up there as mature superhero works. Miracleman was less seen, missing some better handling of the material, by Moore and some interesting explorations by Gaiman. The Golden Age really wraps itself in the period and shows superheroes who have grown up in a war, who now face an uncertain future. itt captures the experience of many veterans, while digging into the post-war hysteria. The relationships are more mature, the consequences are more mature, the actions are more considered. Robinson then carried this world through in Starman, where he played with all kinds of things, from superhero adventures to mysteries, horror, familial bonds, layered villains, favorite writers, pop culture, science fiction, hero worship, grief, love, hate.......it was a feast for the brain , as well as the eye. To me, Ultimates came across more as a loud movie with a lot of CGI, and too much reliance on shock value and pop culture.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2019 12:43:38 GMT -5
Calling Moore overrated, based on Watchmen or V Fro Vendetta suggests ignoring the scope of his work. Moore was there from the beginning, with his short pieces in 2000 AD (including Halo Jones), to Swamp Thing, the Warrior material (Marvelman & V For Vendetta), Captain Britain, Watchmen, his dabblings in the DC mainstream, Brought to Light, Big Numbers, From Hell, A Small Killing, Lost Girls, to the ABC books (Promethea, Tom Strong, Top ten Tomorrow Stories, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen). I haven't read Jerusalem, yet.
What I find is a damn good storyteller, at every stage, who puts so much thought and life into his work and characters. His use of language is pure literary, he shifts easily between the humorous and the horrific, the thoughtful and the mundane, and has a great perception of history and the flow of events, when crafting period tales. He is adept at both long and short form stories.
I tend to think he is underrated, as the vast audience is far less familiar with his works beyond those that were filmed.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Mar 26, 2019 12:58:11 GMT -5
a rather disjointed work that sacrifices story for spectacle. You just described everything Millar has ever written.
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Mar 26, 2019 17:07:11 GMT -5
DC and Marvel have had plenty of stories that broke into public consciousness. The Death of Superman, Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man, Knightfall, Kingdom Come, several works by Grant Morrison. They've done so to different degrees and for different reasons, but Death of Superman I'd argue has broken into public consciousness far more than the likes of Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. Even Frank Miller's Sin City managed, and not just because of the movie.
One common factor in these comics that become regarded on the same level of Watchmen is that they tend to be self-contained like Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. You don't see ongoing series being thought of that way no matter how good or revolutionary they were.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 26, 2019 17:32:42 GMT -5
DC and Marvel have had plenty of stories that broke into public consciousness. The Death of Superman, Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man, Knightfall, Kingdom Come, several works by Grant Morrison. They've done so to different degrees and for different reasons, but Death of Superman I'd argue has broken into public consciousness far more than the likes of Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. Even Frank Miller's Sin City managed, and not just because of the movie. One common factor in these comics that become regarded on the same level of Watchmen is that they tend to be self-contained like Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. You don't see ongoing series being thought of that way no matter how good or revolutionary they were. The Death of Superman - gimmick Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man - no. Knightfall - gimmick and mostly no. Kingdom Come - no. several works by Grant Morrison - doubtful...name them. Sin City - if so, only because of the movies. I say this just based on the stories my wife would be familiar with. And that's as an individual married to a long-time comic reader and who has read the odd comic herself (Sandman, among a handful of others).
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2019 23:41:56 GMT -5
DC and Marvel have had plenty of stories that broke into public consciousness. The Death of Superman, Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man, Knightfall, Kingdom Come, several works by Grant Morrison. They've done so to different degrees and for different reasons, but Death of Superman I'd argue has broken into public consciousness far more than the likes of Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. Even Frank Miller's Sin City managed, and not just because of the movie. One common factor in these comics that become regarded on the same level of Watchmen is that they tend to be self-contained like Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. You don't see ongoing series being thought of that way no matter how good or revolutionary they were. Based on what I saw in the bookstore, over a long period, I would not agree. Death of Superman was kept in print; but, we rarely sold it It had strong initial sales, after it hit trade; but was barely a ripple after. It sold the same as any of the other Superman trades, which was, once in a while. Ultimate Spider-Man was probably a more consistent seller for Marvel, though mainly because it was kept in print longer than the rest. However, it also never sold huge numbers; just, once in a while. The Raimi films didn't affect sales, nor did the reboots. Knightfall, again, was like Death of Superman; strong on original publication, once in a great while after. It was not one of the better selling Batman titles. Year One, Dark Knight and The Long Halloween all left it in the wake. Kingdom Come sold occasionally, since it was kept in print. Nothing spectacular; just a copy here or there; maybe 2-4 a year, in our store. Not as many as Crisis, more than Death of Superman or Knightfall or Ultimate Spider-Man. Nothing by Morrison sold in any kind of appreciable numbers. Supergods wasn't even a blip, in our store and we had strong graphic novel sales, as a university town. His JLA probably sold more than his Vertigo titles, though nothing of real note. Final crisis and Seven Soldiers sat on our shelves. Sin City sold decently before, because of nudity and violence, as much as anything and sold better after the movie. His Batman stuff sold better. Of his post Dark Knight, it probably sold better regular numbers than his other works, though 300 got a boost from the movie. None of these were what I would consider "in the public consciousness." The audience I saw buying them were standard comic book audiences, who came to us because we had them in stock, vs the local comic shops and they could browse. None of those named could match Smile or Bone for sales or things like Maus or Persepolis. Alison Bechdel sold more than most of that list and more than Morrison. In fact, we probably sold more Chris Ware and Dan Clowes than Bendis, Morrison, Death of Superman, Knightfall and probably on par with Kingdom Come. This is what I saw consistently, over 20 years with the company: Maus Perespolis Asterix Tintin Bone Dark Knight Batman: Year One Sandman Watchmen From Hell Blankets V For Vendetta Chris Ware-Jimmy Corrigan, especially Dan Clowes-Ghostworld & a couple of others Walking Dead Crisis on Infinite Earths The Long Halloween Alison Bechdel Sin City 300 Kingdom Come Starman Death of Superman Return of Superman Knightfall JLA Ultimate Spider-Man Ultimate X-Men Essential line of Marvel titles DC Showcase volumes Most of those titles were modeled to be in out store and we sold them at least once or twice a year. The upper part, through Sandman, we sold at least one every month or two. Some things got bosts from movies, though more things like Watchmen, V For Vendetta and the Batman titles. The Marvel movies didn't do much for their trade sales, to an audience beyond those who regularly shopped the graphic novel section. Manga way outsold western graphic novels, apart from the top ten (give or take) on my list, with a majority of them never touching a western book, apart from school reading. Smile and Bone did way better than superheroes, thanks to school libraries, as much as anything (and the Scholastic book club program). JLA was probably Morrison's biggest seller; but, it didn't touch Batman sales or those of Moore or Gaiman. Morrison is practically unknown outside of comic circles, in the US.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2019 1:13:40 GMT -5
a rather disjointed work that sacrifices story for spectacle. You just described everything Millar has ever written. Well, yeah, though I have heard better things about his Superman Adventures stories, which I haven't read. His Ultimates material was decidedly underwhelming and Kick Ass was cliched concepts in a vulgar package. Ultimates struck me as even less developed than his work on The Authority, which I already wasn't fond of. I liked Hytch's detailing, though i don't think he is much of a storyteller. He's more in line with a storyboard artist, showing the big scenes, rather than the visual mechanics of storytelling.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 27, 2019 5:19:06 GMT -5
A story like Watchmen was shocking when it was released but since 1986, it's been homaged and the concept has been done over and over again. It's like eating lobster every day. You would get used to and sick of it after a while. Maybe people should ask: Why hasn't DC (or Marvel for that matter) put out anything else that's broken through to public consciousness like Watchmen or Dark Knight? We're talking 30+ years! This depends on what you consider reaching the public consciousness. I recall both Marvels (1994) and Kingdom Come (1996) having newspaper articles written about them, with Alex Ross interviewed for TV largely thanks to the groundbreaking way he treated the traditional superhero panel comic (particularly in an era of the garbage put out by Liefeld/Lee/McFarlane and imitators). Both fell under the 30 year mark. Apart from that, I think its clear comics are not as groundbreaking or capable of climbing over the natural walls of its genre, as breaking ground / reaching the awareness of the general population is not necessarily the job or intent of comic publishers; they do tend to focus on the audience that is already in place, and hope to capture the majority of that, rather than be some monumental piece of four-color fiction that draws in the uninitiated.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 15:32:39 GMT -5
Just pondering how an Abomination VS Absorbing Man battle would go...
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Post by brutalis on Mar 27, 2019 15:46:21 GMT -5
Just pondering how an Abomination VS Absorbing Man battle would go... Crusher Creel should hand Abomination his KGB ass if done properly. Creel has more creativity and flexibility with his power set than Blonsky's simple pulverize you to hamburger style. If they went pure on fist to face then Abomination is the stronger contender and would win readily.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 27, 2019 16:58:58 GMT -5
Just pondering how an Abomination VS Absorbing Man battle would go... How about Absorbing Man vs DC's Parasite? Would they cancel each other out?
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