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Post by Mister Spaceman on Mar 26, 2019 7:54:30 GMT -5
Watchmen is ridiculously overrated. Do I think it's an engaging, entertaining comic book series? Yes. Do I think it's the brilliant deconstruction of the superhero genre that it's lauded as? Not at all. Moore picks a lot of low-hanging fruit in his supposed deconstruction of the genre (e.g., putting a middle-aged, pot-belied guy in his old superhero suit is not an ingenious inspiration). And I always thought the "space squid" subplot was ridiculous, even laughable (as terrible as the film adaptation is, I have to give it credit for improving on this aspect of the original comics). Mad's take on the genre with "Supderduperman" is far more successful because it takes the piss out of the superhero as a commercial enterprise. Moore takes himself far too seriously as an Artist to admit to his own commercial yearnings.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 8:21:20 GMT -5
I concur 100%, Mister Spaceman. Drinks are one me if you're ever in the UK!
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Post by rberman on Mar 26, 2019 8:21:33 GMT -5
Watchmen is ridiculously overrated. Do I think it's an engaging, entertaining comic book series? Yes. Do I think it's the brilliant deconstruction of the superhero genre that it's lauded as? Not at all. Moore picks a lot of low-hanging fruit in his supposed deconstruction of the genre (e.g., putting a middle-aged, pot-belied guy in his old superhero suit is not an ingenious inspiration). And I always thought the "space squid" subplot was ridiculous, even laughable (as terrible as the film adaptation is, I have to give it credit for improving on this aspect of the original comics). Mad's take on the genre with "Supderduperman" is far more successful because it takes the piss out of the superhero as a commercial enterprise. Moore takes himself far too seriously as an Artist to admit to his own commercial yearnings. It would be hard for it to be under-rated considering how often it makes "best stories ever" lists, gets included in college curricula, has been continuously in print for 30 years, etc! No one would be even talking about Watchmen today if all it offered was "pot bellied schlub tries to squeeze into his spandex one last time." Of course the space squid plot is ridiculous, as intended; like the rest of Watchmen, it's a re-imagining of Silver Age tropes in the waning nuclear days of the Cold War. It's about weaponizing the creative impulse. What happens when the concept of Superman becomes a tool of the establishment? When the scientist's dream of a nuclear-powered utopia leads instead to a nightmare of Mutual Assured Destruction? It's a story containing superheroes, but not really about superheroes.
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Mar 26, 2019 8:36:07 GMT -5
Watchmen is ridiculously overrated. Do I think it's an engaging, entertaining comic book series? Yes. Do I think it's the brilliant deconstruction of the superhero genre that it's lauded as? Not at all. Moore picks a lot of low-hanging fruit in his supposed deconstruction of the genre (e.g., putting a middle-aged, pot-belied guy in his old superhero suit is not an ingenious inspiration). And I always thought the "space squid" subplot was ridiculous, even laughable (as terrible as the film adaptation is, I have to give it credit for improving on this aspect of the original comics). Mad's take on the genre with "Supderduperman" is far more successful because it takes the piss out of the superhero as a commercial enterprise. Moore takes himself far too seriously as an Artist to admit to his own commercial yearnings. It would be hard for it to be under-rated considering how often it makes "best stories ever" lists, gets included in college curricula, has been continuously in print for 30 years, etc! No one would be even talking about Watchmen today if all it offered was "pot bellied schlub tries to squeeze into his spandex one last time." Of course the space squid plot is ridiculous, as intended; like the rest of Watchmen, it's a re-imagining of Silver Age tropes in the waning nuclear days of the Cold War. It's about weaponizing the creative impulse. What happens when the concept of Superman becomes a tool of the establishment? When the scientist's dream of a nuclear-powered utopia leads instead to a nightmare of Mutual Assured Destruction? It's a story containing superheroes, but not really about superheroes. And it's pretty ham-fisted in its execution of those ideas. As a professor who regularly teaches one of those university courses on the superhero genre that you mention, I long ago stopped including Watchmen on my required reading list because it isn't the best or even most interesting take on Silver Age comics. Again, I'm not saying that it isn't without value. But it sure as heck ain't all that. And Alan Moore in general is an overrated writer.
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Post by rberman on Mar 26, 2019 8:43:47 GMT -5
It would be hard for it to be under-rated considering how often it makes "best stories ever" lists, gets included in college curricula, has been continuously in print for 30 years, etc! No one would be even talking about Watchmen today if all it offered was "pot bellied schlub tries to squeeze into his spandex one last time." Of course the space squid plot is ridiculous, as intended; like the rest of Watchmen, it's a re-imagining of Silver Age tropes in the waning nuclear days of the Cold War. It's about weaponizing the creative impulse. What happens when the concept of Superman becomes a tool of the establishment? When the scientist's dream of a nuclear-powered utopia leads instead to a nightmare of Mutual Assured Destruction? It's a story containing superheroes, but not really about superheroes. And it's pretty ham-fisted in its execution of those ideas. As a professor who regularly teaches one of those university courses on the superhero genre that you mention, I long ago stopped including Watchmen on my required reading list because it isn't the best or even most interesting take on Silver Age comics. Again, I'm not saying that it isn't without value. But it sure as heck ain't all that. And Alan Moore in general is an overrated writer. I can't argue the point in terms of whether Moore or Watchmen is over-rated, considering he regularly tops "best comic book writer ever" polls. I don't find the over/under discussion a helpful framing. And I can also well believe that Watchmen has aged from "valuable part of the current conversation" to "important historical document reflecting values and concerns of generations past." Perhaps a better framing would be: Up until Watchmen, what works dealt better with these issues? Since Watchmen, what works have improved upon it?
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Post by Mister Spaceman on Mar 26, 2019 8:52:37 GMT -5
And it's pretty ham-fisted in its execution of those ideas. As a professor who regularly teaches one of those university courses on the superhero genre that you mention, I long ago stopped including Watchmen on my required reading list because it isn't the best or even most interesting take on Silver Age comics. Again, I'm not saying that it isn't without value. But it sure as heck ain't all that. And Alan Moore in general is an overrated writer. I can't argue the point in terms of whether Moore or Watchmen is over-rated, considering he regularly tops "best comic book writer ever" polls. I don't find the over/under discussion a helpful framing. And I can also well believe that Watchmen has aged from "valuable part of the current conversation" to "important historical document reflecting values and concerns of generations past." Perhaps a better framing would be: Up until Watchmen, what works dealt better with these issues? Since Watchmen, what works have improved upon it? Naw, I'm good with calling it (and Moore) out as overrated. There's value in noting that the emperor wears no clothes, which was the point of my post. If we slavishly and uncritically accept that this is one of the most important comic books ever because, well, everyone else says so, we're not going to get anywhere that's been earned by critical thought and reflection. But I'm also happy to note other works that do a better job of engaging with and developing and/or complicating the tropes of the genre (I think the whole notion of "deconstruction" is problematic and essentially useless), including a Watchmen contemporary, The Dark Knight Returns.
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Post by MDG on Mar 26, 2019 8:59:49 GMT -5
... Perhaps a better framing would be: Up until Watchmen, what works dealt better with these issues? Since Watchmen, what works have improved upon it? Nicely said. I'm no huge fan of Watchmen, but I recognize its importance and influence (for better or worse). Also: You had to be there.
The 1986 triumvirate of Watchmen, Dark Knight, and Maus still seem to be the go-to examples for "comics growing up." What single works have come out since then that have the same level of public renown? Persepolis and (maybe) Fun Home are the only things that come to mind. (I'm not talking ongoing series like Love & Rockets.)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 26, 2019 9:06:33 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree!
Watchmen may not be the «end of history» series some enthusiastic fans made it to be, but it is still one fine, fine, comic... a true highlight of the 1980s super-hero comics scene. Over-rated it might be, but only because the idea of Watchmen has grown larger than the comic itself.
Unlike several imitators who thought that all you need to do to write a more mature comic was to use violence, profanity and a few navel-gazing psychological references, Moore never seemed to fake it. From Swamp Thing to Watchmen, from From Hell to League of Extraordinary Gentlemen by way of Big Numbers, his work in the '80s to the '00s was often top-notch.
(I agree on the squid, though... I thought the movie's version was better, even if I understand the homage to old comic-book stories).
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Post by rberman on Mar 26, 2019 9:32:59 GMT -5
I can't argue the point in terms of whether Moore or Watchmen is over-rated, considering he regularly tops "best comic book writer ever" polls. I don't find the over/under discussion a helpful framing. And I can also well believe that Watchmen has aged from "valuable part of the current conversation" to "important historical document reflecting values and concerns of generations past." Perhaps a better framing would be: Up until Watchmen, what works dealt better with these issues? Since Watchmen, what works have improved upon it? Naw, I'm good with calling it (and Moore) out as overrated. There's value in noting that the emperor wears no clothes, which was the point of my post. If we slavishly and uncritically accept that this is one of the most important comic books ever because, well, everyone else says so, we're not going to get anywhere that's been earned by critical thought and reflection. But I'm also happy to note other works that do a better job of engaging with and developing and/or complicating the tropes of the genre (I think the whole notion of "deconstruction" is problematic and essentially useless), including a Watchmen contemporary, The Dark Knight Returns. You'll be in good company in seeing The Dark Knight Returns as a work which engaged and challenged superhero tropes. And I doubt anyone here will commend "slavishly and uncritically" accepting anything, although there's always the possibility that our adulation is more lemming-like than we realize. Watchmen's quality is multi-faceted. It showed superheroes with feet of clay. It spoke to the nuclear anxieties of its day. It integrated word and image to a degree rarely (if ever) seen before. It engaged in parallel, palindromic, and asynchronous structures not just as formal experiments for their own sake, but to echo the themes of the underlying story. It interrogated previous works from Ditko's Randian manifestos to pulpy monster yarns. It showed American readers how their country seems to the rest of the world, challenging a triumphalist national narrative. Its rejection of thought balloons and omniscient narrative captions showed how impressive it was, when other writers trying the same thing lost narrative clarity in the process. All of this in a mainstream comic book backed by the marketing might of a global entertainment leviathan? Astonishing.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 26, 2019 9:49:14 GMT -5
... Perhaps a better framing would be: Up until Watchmen, what works dealt better with these issues? Since Watchmen, what works have improved upon it? Nicely said. I'm no huge fan of Watchmen, but I recognize its importance and influence (for better or worse). Also: You had to be there. The 1986 triumvirate of Watchmen, Dark Knight, and Maus still seem to be the go-to examples for "comics growing up." What single works have come out since then that have the same level of public renown? Persepolis and (maybe) Fun Home are the only things that come to mind. (I'm not talking ongoing series like Love & Rockets.)
As someone who read it many years later, I think I am in the category that mdg mentions. I think that's why I look at comics like Watchmen, DKR and Killing Joke as a immature attempt at trying to make comics "grow up". Much like many other medias and genres. I don't think there is anything "adult" about any of these three stories. They seem to go for shock value as a means to "grow up". But then I wasn't there for any of them when they first arrived on the stands, nor there for the circumstances in American history that may have shaped the way the stories were written at the time. But in hindsight, to me, they're nothing more than Human Centipede in my own context.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 9:58:29 GMT -5
What really pisses me off is how ubiquitous it is. A group I meet up with wanted to do a graphic novel rather than a novel. Everyone wanted to do Watchmen (other than myself and one other person) because, hey, it's the only graphic novel/trade in existence, right? And it happened again recently. Another reading group I attend wishes to do a graphic novel. It was my suggestion. Before I could even speak, one of the vocal members of the group said, "Shall we do Watchmen?" I could not help but reply, "That's a cliché choice, let's try something else." I threw around other ideas: A New Jerusalem, Pride, Batman Noel, etc. These are *just* two recent examples. I have tried to get reading groups to do graphic novels before. And, predictably and boringly, some will always suggest Watchmen or V For Vendetta. What a crying shame those two stories are the only ones ever created, eh?
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 26, 2019 10:01:20 GMT -5
It might be the hip thing to do these says to put down Watchmen but it’s a great tale told by 2 top creators and has stood the test of time. Overrated is certainly DARK knight Returns. Spaceman , I think you spent too much time teaching it and maybe began to hate it after a while. Watchmen in its presentation and execution was ahead of its time. Maybe someone should start a thread about which comics were “ ahead of its time” or “ you had to be there”. it breaks my heart when people say books like the Kree/ Skrull war or the Neals Adams GL run was just “okay “.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 10:08:15 GMT -5
The Kree-Skrull War gets a thumbs up from me.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 26, 2019 10:34:29 GMT -5
GA/GL is a great story. And I wasn't even there for it. Or necessarily as polarized in politics as that story was between GA and GL. But damn it was good.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 26, 2019 10:39:20 GMT -5
GA/GL is a great story. And I wasn't even there for it. Or necessarily as polarized in politics as that story was between GA and GL. But damn it was good.
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