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Post by hondobrode on Jun 11, 2019 12:52:59 GMT -5
I read the first 50 issues, and liked it, but not enough to keep following it, though I love the crossover one-shots with Superman, Turtles, etc.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 11, 2019 13:14:22 GMT -5
Seriously, you can't predict what will happen from issue to issue. Key people get killed never to return.
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Post by brutalis on Jun 11, 2019 13:15:29 GMT -5
I pick up Savage Dragon Archives in the collected Black and White editions. 25 issues of gonzo at a time!!
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Post by hondobrode on Jun 11, 2019 13:21:46 GMT -5
Yeah I like the unpredicatability and no sacred cows
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2019 15:25:36 GMT -5
I read the first 50 issues, and liked it, but not enough to keep following it, though I love the crossover one-shots with Superman, Turtles, etc. I loved the Superman and Savage Dragon crossover! I'm a Savage Dragon FAN too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 9:04:18 GMT -5
I always sense a bit of disdain for people that like and keep buying the comics they grew up with in your responses. There should be a comic for all the different tastes that are out there. The bottom line is that when a particular item stops being in demand, the seller will discontinue it , whether it be a movie franchise or a unimportant comic book. It's not people who buy comics they like, it's people who keep buying books regardless of the quality of the book because they are fans of the character or can't stand there being a hole in their run, or who expect the industry to cater to their tastes only and serve as gatekeepers or have an idea that they are the only true fans and the only ones who should matter, or that the publishers owe them something because they have been fans for so long and not just the book that the already paid for and received. Buying bad comics (or comics you don't enjoy) just because they like the character, don't want a hole in their collection, or grew up with the book only serves to reward making bad comics and results in more bad comics being made. Comic publishers react to the buying patterns (not the internet postings) of their customer base, and if comics sell the same regardless of quality, or sell eimply because of trade dress rather than quality of story, there is no financial incentive for them to make better comics. Also, fans need to realize they are not the customers of Marvel and DC. Diamond is. And Diamond's customers are the retailers, and it is the retailer's orders that determine which books are popular and which books are successful, not comics fans. Fans are customers of various retailers, but retailer orders are not based solely on fan orders, so it is not fans who determine what is successful or not in the industry. And retailers base their orders on the buying habits of the customer base (including the proclivity to buy events and #1 issues in greater quantities than other books) and the minimum ordering requirements to achieve certain discount levels or to qualify for certain variants, not the quality of the books. (here's an anecdote from my local shop-apps that point out hot books to pick up, in particular #1 issues that send speculators into shops to buy up copies on the day they are released to flip later kill the long term health of series as copies of #1s are not available for people to read so they won't buy #2, #3, etc. and so retailers don't order them in any quantity and books get cancelled despite having good initial sales on #1). I And if the seller is Marvel or DC, there are lots of other seasons to keep selling a product besides customer demand, such as keeping trademarks active and protecting IP, which generates far more longterm revenue for the company than the sale of print periodicals to the niche customer base of the direct market. And you are right, there should be comics out there for all tastes, but unfortunately most fanbros disagree with that notion and think publishers should cater exclusively to their tastes or their demographic, mostly because they see themselves as the only "true fans" and their way is the right way to be a fan and comics that don't cater to their tastes are doing it wrong. And that is the source for any disdain you may detect in my posts. There are still some fun and interesting big 2 super-hero comics out there, but it's not the entirety of the industry, and books that cater to the demographic who only read those are not the future of the industry, it is the past, and the longer the industry clings to the past, the dimmer their future gets. Things that will not or cannot adapt to new circumstances go the way of the dodo. And there are a whole lot of new circumstances the industry is not adapting well to (or refusing to adapt to) as they cling to the past and continue to believe the myth of "if you build it, they will come." They already came, and moved on (or died off), and they're not coming back until you do something new and different to bring them back. What's the definition of Insanity (or stupidity)...it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. The industry has been doing the same thing over and over for thirty years now and in denial about the outcome of that. So by all means, buy what you like and support the books you like, but understand that actions have consequences, and that supporting bad comics or comics you aren't currently enjoying for nostalgic reasons is going to result in more bad comics on the market and more money tied up in products that only exist because customers are feeding their fixes and not because they are quality products. Support what you want to see more of in the market, not what you liked 20 years ago. -M Do many people do that, do you think? For example, I stopped reading Brian Michael Bendis' Iron Man because it wasn't floating my boat. I loved a lot of the late 80s Iron Man stuff, but I wasn't going to buy a book based on nostalgia. Not saying you're wrong - you have incredible insight and I enjoy your post - just that I wonder how many are doing that. Regarding people not wanting holes in their collection, that's a bizarre mindset that I hope is in the minority. I am missing volumes in my collection because those volumes don't appeal to me. If I have Volumes 1, 2, 3 - but then 6 and 7 of something, that's because 4 and 5 don't appeal to me. And it would not bother me to have a shelf where the numbers weren't sequential. 2000 AD was a title I enjoyed as a kid. But nostalgia does not make me a regular buyer of it now because, with the exception of Judge Dredd, very few of the strips interest me.
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Post by rberman on Jun 17, 2019 9:26:25 GMT -5
It's not people who buy comics they like, it's people who keep buying books regardless of the quality of the book because they are fans of the character or can't stand there being a hole in their run, or who expect the industry to cater to their tastes only and serve as gatekeepers or have an idea that they are the only true fans and the only ones who should matter, or that the publishers owe them something because they have been fans for so long and not just the book that the already paid for and received. Buying bad comics (or comics you don't enjoy) just because they like the character, don't want a hole in their collection, or grew up with the book only serves to reward making bad comics and results in more bad comics being made. Comic publishers react to the buying patterns (not the internet postings) of their customer base, and if comics sell the same regardless of quality, or sell eimply because of trade dress rather than quality of story, there is no financial incentive for them to make better comics. Also, fans need to realize they are not the customers of Marvel and DC. Diamond is. And Diamond's customers are the retailers, and it is the retailer's orders that determine which books are popular and which books are successful, not comics fans. Fans are customers of various retailers, but retailer orders are not based solely on fan orders, so it is not fans who determine what is successful or not in the industry. And retailers base their orders on the buying habits of the customer base (including the proclivity to buy events and #1 issues in greater quantities than other books) and the minimum ordering requirements to achieve certain discount levels or to qualify for certain variants, not the quality of the books. (here's an anecdote from my local shop-apps that point out hot books to pick up, in particular #1 issues that send speculators into shops to buy up copies on the day they are released to flip later kill the long term health of series as copies of #1s are not available for people to read so they won't buy #2, #3, etc. and so retailers don't order them in any quantity and books get cancelled despite having good initial sales on #1). I And if the seller is Marvel or DC, there are lots of other seasons to keep selling a product besides customer demand, such as keeping trademarks active and protecting IP, which generates far more longterm revenue for the company than the sale of print periodicals to the niche customer base of the direct market. And you are right, there should be comics out there for all tastes, but unfortunately most fanbros disagree with that notion and think publishers should cater exclusively to their tastes or their demographic, mostly because they see themselves as the only "true fans" and their way is the right way to be a fan and comics that don't cater to their tastes are doing it wrong. And that is the source for any disdain you may detect in my posts. There are still some fun and interesting big 2 super-hero comics out there, but it's not the entirety of the industry, and books that cater to the demographic who only read those are not the future of the industry, it is the past, and the longer the industry clings to the past, the dimmer their future gets. Things that will not or cannot adapt to new circumstances go the way of the dodo. And there are a whole lot of new circumstances the industry is not adapting well to (or refusing to adapt to) as they cling to the past and continue to believe the myth of "if you build it, they will come." They already came, and moved on (or died off), and they're not coming back until you do something new and different to bring them back. What's the definition of Insanity (or stupidity)...it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. The industry has been doing the same thing over and over for thirty years now and in denial about the outcome of that. So by all means, buy what you like and support the books you like, but understand that actions have consequences, and that supporting bad comics or comics you aren't currently enjoying for nostalgic reasons is going to result in more bad comics on the market and more money tied up in products that only exist because customers are feeding their fixes and not because they are quality products. Support what you want to see more of in the market, not what you liked 20 years ago. -M Do many people do that, do you think? For example, I stopped reading Brian Michael Bendis' Iron Man because it wasn't floating my boat. I loved a lot of the late 80s Iron Man stuff, but I wasn't going to buy a book based on nostalgia. Not saying you're wrong - you have incredible insight and I enjoy your post - just that I wonder how many are doing that. Regarding people not wanting holes in their collection, that's a bizarre mindset that I hope is in the minority. I am missing volumes in my collection because those volumes don't appeal to me. If I have Volumes 1, 2, 3 - but then 6 and 7 of something, that's because 4 and 5 don't appeal to me. And it would not bother me to have a shelf where the numbers weren't sequential. 2000 AD was a title I enjoyed as a kid. But nostalgia does not make me a regular buyer of it now because, with the exception of Judge Dredd, very few of the strips interest me. I too suspect that there are a lot of completists who buy every issue compulsively, because they can't bear the thought of having their unbroken run of Iron Man since nineteen-sixty-whatever ended by missing issues in the middle. What if ten years from now those issues turn out to be the first appearance of Tony's long lost brother Shmony who goes on to be a fan favorite? Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 12:04:18 GMT -5
Do many people do that, do you think? For example, I stopped reading Brian Michael Bendis' Iron Man because it wasn't floating my boat. I loved a lot of the late 80s Iron Man stuff, but I wasn't going to buy a book based on nostalgia. Not saying you're wrong - you have incredible insight and I enjoy your post - just that I wonder how many are doing that. Regarding people not wanting holes in their collection, that's a bizarre mindset that I hope is in the minority. I am missing volumes in my collection because those volumes don't appeal to me. If I have Volumes 1, 2, 3 - but then 6 and 7 of something, that's because 4 and 5 don't appeal to me. And it would not bother me to have a shelf where the numbers weren't sequential. 2000 AD was a title I enjoyed as a kid. But nostalgia does not make me a regular buyer of it now because, with the exception of Judge Dredd, very few of the strips interest me. There are far more than you would believe. There are a lot of people who would prefer to buy a bad comic featuring their favorite character than to be missing an appearance by them, and others who are paranoid they will stop making books about their favorite character if they stopped buying their appearances even if they are terrible comics. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 17, 2019 12:21:20 GMT -5
Do many people do that, do you think? For example, I stopped reading Brian Michael Bendis' Iron Man because it wasn't floating my boat. I loved a lot of the late 80s Iron Man stuff, but I wasn't going to buy a book based on nostalgia. Not saying you're wrong - you have incredible insight and I enjoy your post - just that I wonder how many are doing that. Regarding people not wanting holes in their collection, that's a bizarre mindset that I hope is in the minority. I am missing volumes in my collection because those volumes don't appeal to me. If I have Volumes 1, 2, 3 - but then 6 and 7 of something, that's because 4 and 5 don't appeal to me. And it would not bother me to have a shelf where the numbers weren't sequential. 2000 AD was a title I enjoyed as a kid. But nostalgia does not make me a regular buyer of it now because, with the exception of Judge Dredd, very few of the strips interest me. There are far more than you would believe. There are a lot of people who would prefer to buy a bad comic featuring their favorite character than to be missing an appearance by them, and others who are paranoid they will stop making books about their favorite character if they stopped buying their appearances even if they are terrible comics. -M It's widespread. I had this conversation just the other day. And this is with a sophisticated comic buyer, someone who is a published academic and who studies comics as a university professor. Upon hearing that Bendis will be doing a Legion of Super-Heroes book. "I hate Bendis' work. I'm going to be forced to buy it to read the Legion. I have to buy it." My response, "Nobody is forcing you to buy it. You don't have to buy it. Comics aren't food." (there may be slight paraphrasing)
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 17, 2019 12:43:40 GMT -5
My experience has always been that completists are more the minority than the majority and that there are degrees to it. There are those who continue a title for a bit because they loved what had been don and were giving the new team a chance, There are those who want everything. There are those who will focus on specific creators, specific characters or specific titles. There are those who will come and go. I was more of the latter, depending on economics. When money was tight, I went for the best story possible. When money was plentiful, I might continue a series when my interest was waning, for a short period of time (usually no more than 6 months, at the extreme). However, I don't think that completists make up a major segment of any particular title's sales or even a character. I think the percentages vary, according to the specific title, character, or creators; but, the vast majority are in it because they like what is being done, at some level. When sales start dropping is when you see completists become more of a factor. Some books have hung on because of loyalists; but, that doesn't mean they continue hanging on if the company makes a big change. Use defenders asa general example. People read it and enjoy it and it sells relatively well, under, say, Steve Gerber. However, sales start slipping during some storyline. Gerber loyalists remain, Defenders loyalists remain; but, many are moving on. Now, if editorial decides to replace Gerber, Gerber loyalists are likely to bolt, though some may wait a bit, while defenders loyalists will see what happens.
I think the completists are more likely to be the last off the ship, rather than the reason why editorial is making decisions or why "bad" books keep going.. The "I have to buy it, because it is X" tend to be a minority, in my travels.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 12:51:07 GMT -5
My experience has always been that completists are more the minority than the majority and that there are degrees to it. There are those who continue a title for a bit because they loved what had been don and were giving the new team a chance, There are those who want everything. There are those who will focus on specific creators, specific characters or specific titles. There are those who will come and go. I was more of the latter, depending on economics. When money was tight, I went for the best story possible. When money was plentiful, I might continue a series when my interest was waning, for a short period of time (usually no more than 6 months, at the extreme). However, I don't think that completists make up a major segment of any particular title's sales or even a character. I think the percentages vary, according to the specific title, character, or creators; but, the vast majority are in it because they like what is being done, at some level. When sales start dropping is when you see completists become more of a factor. Some books have hung on because of loyalists; but, that doesn't mean they continue hanging on if the company makes a big change. Use defenders asa general example. People read it and enjoy it and it sells relatively well, under, say, Steve Gerber. However, sales start slipping during some storyline. Gerber loyalists remain, Defenders loyalists remain; but, many are moving on. Now, if editorial decides to replace Gerber, Gerber loyalists are likely to bolt, though some may wait a bit, while defenders loyalists will see what happens. I think the completists are more likely to be the last off the ship, rather than the reason why editorial is making decisions or why "bad" books keep going.. The "I have to buy it, because it is X" tend to be a minority, in my travels. Except as the size of the customer base has shrunk over the years, the percentage of completionists in the customer base has grown because the more casual customers have disappeared leaving only the hardcore fan behind. Even back about 5 years ago when I was helping out in the local shop, about half of the pull lists were form completionsits and would never change, they just bought the books they bought in perpetuity. About another quarter were speculators, changing the pulls to reflect what was hot and adding books that were getting buzz or pre-release hype, and only about a uqarter were people who rotated based on what they were reading and enjoying, dropping what they didn't like and trying new things to see if they did. Your impressions of the market were entirely accurate when there was a larger customer base, but as the market has shrunk, the composition of the market has been altered, and it is mostly the hardcore collector/fanboy left, and the completionist impulse is much more ubiquitous among that remaining portion of the customer base. -M
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2019 12:51:57 GMT -5
I can believe mrp and Slam. I see the same in wrestling. I no longer watch Raw because, quite honestly, three hours EVERY WEEK is far too unwieldy for a wrestling show. By the third hour, I was burnt out. So I stick to the PPV events now and completely miss Raw (an online recap is enough for me, I can watch any matches I may think were interesting).
Yet I have known wrestling completists in my life. You could not pay me to own WrestleMania IX on VHS or DVD, I was happy for there to be a gap in the tapes/DVDs (all redundant now with the WWE Network). But I do understand the completist mindset.
I can and do follow creators. I really enjoyed Dan Slott's Spidey stuff - so I began picking up his Iron Man work (I dropped Iron Man as Bendis' work on it didn't appeal to me, although I like his Superman stuff). I am enjoying Dan Slott's Iron Man immensely, but if I were to ever reach a stage where it didn't, I'd have no hesitation in dropping it. Far more important for me to own what I like than have a pretty shelf. Doesn't make me perfect, it's just practical.
I used to own the James Bond videotapes on VHS. They looked nice on the shelf. But excluding Diamonds Are Forever and Octopussy was no big deal. I wasn't going to own them just so the videotape collection could look complete.
I apologise for never staying in one lane on a topic, guys.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 17, 2019 13:14:47 GMT -5
I can believe mrp and Slam. I see the same in wrestling. I no longer watch Raw because, quite honestly, three hours EVERY WEEK is far too unwieldy for a wrestling show. By the third hour, I was burnt out. So I stick to the PPV events now and completely miss Raw (an online recap is enough for me, I can watch any matches I may think were interesting). Yet I have known wrestling completists in my life. You could not pay me to own WrestleMania IX on VHS or DVD, I was happy for there to be a gap in the tapes/DVDs (all redundant now with the WWE Network). But I do understand the completist mindset. I can and do follow creators. I really enjoyed Dan Slott's Spidey stuff - so I began picking up his Iron Man work (I dropped Iron Man as Bendis' work on it didn't appeal to me, although I like his Superman stuff). I am enjoying Dan Slott's Iron Man immensely, but if I were to ever reach a stage where it didn't, I'd have no hesitation in dropping it. Far more important for me to own what I like than have a pretty shelf. Doesn't make me perfect, it's just practical. I used to own the James Bond videotapes on VHS. They looked nice on the shelf. But excluding Diamonds Are Forever and Octopussy was no big deal. I wasn't going to own them just so the videotape collection could look complete. I apologise for never staying in one lane on a topic, guys. I'll take either of them over Moonraker or View To A Kill; and, all over Die Another Day. I mean, come on, how can you not love Diamonds Are Forever, just for Jimmy Dean? "Saxby!" "Burt Saxby?...........Tell him he's fired!" (pronounced fahrred) Charles Grey in drag, though.....................................wugh! (though it is a top up who is worse; him or Gene Hackman, in The Bird Cage).
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Post by beccabear67 on Jun 17, 2019 14:13:35 GMT -5
You'd think there must be some benefit from compiling a complete run but it's actually the cheapest way to buy back issue comics is in a large run or set.
I'm not completist when it comes to comic titles, I go for runs of a creative team, so if there is a fill-in issue by others and I really dislike it I skip that number. Now sometimes they will have some of the creative team contribute to the fill-in/reprint and I might get it just for a cover or a framing sequence, like one Amazing Adventures War Of the Worlds reprinted a story from only a few issues previous which I already had, but for the P. Craig Russell cover and framing pages it was still more than worth it, and that issue had a lower price on it, same with a Detective Comics with a Marshall Rogers cover and framing sequence inside (and the reprint was a Neal Adams I didn't have).
I am more completist on non-comics magazines sometimes, but then others like a FilmFax, Mojo or The Comics Journal I only have for certain contents of interest. No point having ones on material I've no interest in.
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Post by Trevor on Jun 18, 2019 7:38:55 GMT -5
I’m a completest, but I think I (sub?)consciously have always chosen characters/series that are relatively easy to complete. Swamp Thing was my first, and now there are dozens of runs/characters/creators that I at least in theory “must complete”. But most of the compiling and tracking of such things are in a virtual to-do list miles long, so maybe I can’t really claim to still be a completest.
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