|
Post by Farrar on Jul 17, 2018 21:24:39 GMT -5
Here's the perspective of someone who was reading the X-Men comic back then--namely, me. I'd skimmed over #39, the new costumes issue, courtesy of a classmate; bought #40; missed #41; and then bought #42. So as a relatively new reader of the comic I wasn't heavily invested in Prof. X--to me he was just some older bald guy, a stodgy character who not nearly as exciting or vibrant as the costumed members of the team. When he was killed off in #42 I was like,oh OK. His death was heavily milked for drama in the next several issues and gave the book an emotional core. The X-Men mourned him but despite some bumps, the team seemed to get along without him. In the lettercols at the time readers praised the realism of the event. There was no indication (or intention) at that time that this was stunt or a trick or anything like that. I was glad that Jean, my favorite X-person, had taken over as the team's psychic center and because she'd essentially replaced Xavier, her prominence in the book had increased. Yep, I didn't miss Prof. X at all. BUT when Neal Adams came on board with X-Men #56, he really wanted to bring back Prof. X (per NA interviews in Comic Book Artist #3; NA introduction to the Neal Adams X-Men Visionaries tpb; and elsewhere), so that's what he did (he ran this by Roy of course). Adams is the one who came up with the idea that Prof. X needed time away from the team to work on a top secret project in isolation and that's why Prof. X had the Changeling (who was dying) impersonate him for a few months. Anyway, "Prof. X." was dead from #42 to #65, basically two years in real time. When he came back to the book in #65, again I was like, eh, OK. I was still lukewarm about Xavier but by this time Lorna and Alex had come on board so I was hopeful this expanded cast meant that Marvel was taking a renewed interest in the book and that there were big things in store...but as we know the book was canceled with #66. (Yes I know it was revived later on, first as a reprint book then eventually first-run stories again. But by then I was not reading comics).
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Jul 18, 2018 8:13:52 GMT -5
The Magneto comeback was super messed up, they said it was a robot ultimately (with Mesmero as a henchman as Toad was off with the real Magneto) from #17-18 after the Stranger had taken him away in #11. If I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly (and if I'm not, my apologies), you have Maggie's timeline off a bit. It's the real Magneto in X-Men #17-18, who is not seen again until Avengers #47. His appearances alongside Mesmero in X-Men #49-51 were intended to be the real deal by then-scripter Arnold Drake and only retconned to a robot by Roy Thomas in #58, who a) felt Drake mischaracterized the mutant master of magnetism, and b) wanted to set up the real Mag's next appearance in #62-63.
Cei-U! I summon the cattywumpus continuity!
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Jul 18, 2018 13:39:56 GMT -5
The Magneto comeback was super messed up, they said it was a robot ultimately (with Mesmero as a henchman as Toad was off with the real Magneto) from #17-18 after the Stranger had taken him away in #11. If I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly (and if I'm not, my apologies), you have Maggie's timeline off a bit. It's the real Magneto in X-Men #17-18, who is not seen again until Avengers #47. His appearances alongside Mesmero in X-Men #49-51 were intended to be the real deal by then-scripter Arnold Drake and only retconned to a robot by Roy Thomas in #58, who a) felt Drake mischaracterized the mutant master of magnetism, and b) wanted to set up the real Mag's next appearance in #62-63.
Cei-U! I summon the cattywumpus continuity!
Ah, okay, it was very confusing to follow wherever they tried to fix the whole thing, more so as a lot of it in volved back-issues I might have read out of order of publication. I'm still not sure if Lorna Dane, or even Wanda and Pietro 'Frank', are related or not, just that I read the ones revealing they pretty much were. I remember Magneto wavering from sheer evil mutant-supremacist, to greiving widow alone in the world of humans, to mutant segregationist freedom-fighter.
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Jul 18, 2018 14:43:10 GMT -5
If I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly (and if I'm not, my apologies), you have Maggie's timeline off a bit. It's the real Magneto in X-Men #17-18, who is not seen again until Avengers #47. His appearances alongside Mesmero in X-Men #49-51 were intended to be the real deal by then-scripter Arnold Drake and only retconned to a robot by Roy Thomas in #58, who a) felt Drake mischaracterized the mutant master of magnetism, and b) wanted to set up the real Mag's next appearance in #62-63.
Cei-U! I summon the cattywumpus continuity!
Ah, okay, it was very confusing to follow wherever they tried to fix the whole thing, more so as a lot of it in volved back-issues I might have read out of order of publication. I'm still not sure if Lorna Dane, or even Wanda and Pietro 'Frank', are related or not, just that I read the ones revealing they pretty much were. I remember Magneto wavering from sheer evil mutant-supremacist, to greiving widow alone in the world of humans, to mutant segregationist freedom-fighter. Magneto was just another generic Marvel bad guy like Dr. Doom, Red Skull, or The Mandarin ("You DARE defy," etc, etc) until Chris Claremont got a hold of him and began to humanize him. I thought it was a much-needed deepening of what was supposed to be THE X-villain, I liked the Holocaust survivor backstory, and I had no problem with the retcon that made him Wanda and Pietro's biological father, but I thought Claremont went too far turning him into a good guy and putting him in charge of Xavier's school. That was the status quo when I quit following X-Men, so I have no idea what followed. From what I've picked up from discussions about the Xorn fiasco, I'm happy not knowing. I've never really warmed up to Magneto anyway, except when Sir Ian is playing the part.
Cei-U! I summon the olden days!
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 18, 2018 21:48:47 GMT -5
I think that's a real issue in modern comics.. any time a writer creates a good villain, or does a good job writing them, they suddenly turn them good. Doom that cares about Latveria WHILE conquering the world is still pretty cool.. when he suddenly feels bad about trying to take over the world, not so much. Same with Mags, Lex Luthor, heck, even Galactus.
I know very little of the behind the scenes stuff, so that's really interesting that it was Neal Adams that wanted Xavier back.. was he co-plotting at the time (more than the usual Marvel Method), or did he just really want to draw him?
|
|
|
Post by Farrar on Jul 18, 2018 22:29:37 GMT -5
I know very little of the behind the scenes stuff, so that's really interesting that it was Neal Adams that wanted Xavier back.. was he co-plotting at the time (more than the usual Marvel Method), or did he just really want to draw him? Yes, Adams was basically co-plotting and was doing a lot more than simply drawing pictures. He had a lot of input and from what i have read, worked well with Roy Thomas. By Roy's admission (in interviews such as in Alter Ego #50), Roy tried to accommodate his artists whenever he could, especially when it came to an artist who had a strong personality and a lot of enthusiasm for the medium, as well as being immensely talented, like Neal Adams. From the Roy Thomas interview in AE #50:"I tended to go along with what he [Neal] wanted to do, because it usually sounded good to me--though I did a bit of subtle guiding over our lunches since I knew the Marvel characters better than he did." And also a bit later on, Adams played a similarly major role when he did some Avengers issues during the now-famous Kree-Skrull War saga (9 issues in all, written by Thomas and illustrated by a variety of artists: Sal and John Buscema and Adams). Anyway, when Neal came on board for this project, he had a lot of ideas: among other things he wanted to tell the story from the vantage point of aliens in the farflung future (in other words as if the KS War was being studied in a history class); he wanted stretch the story out for 30+ issues, etc. His vision didn't see print--this was back in 1971 and 1972!--but you can't deny his ambition and imagination.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 18, 2018 22:45:43 GMT -5
That sounds like an awesome series (the KS War thing).. I'd buy that in a heartbeat!
|
|
|
Post by Farrar on Jul 22, 2018 17:10:38 GMT -5
^^^ Wasn't sure if you'd read it or not, but it's quite an experience. Very ambitious, especially for its time. I read it way back when in its original form (issue by issue). It's been collected several times and it's also in one of the Avengers Essentials volumes. I no longer have the single issues but I do have this tpb (which has a then-new Adams drawing for the cover): Available at Amazon and probably at your lcs. The individuals issues are #89 through #97, Avengers vol. 1. Btw sorry for derailing your Xcellent X-Men thread!
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 23, 2018 22:50:53 GMT -5
I've definitely read those... definitely one of the better early Avengers stories! I don't recall if I own a trade version or if I borrowed it.. I'll have to check... that's a pretty cool cover. I want the documentary version, though... I could see that being amazing!
|
|
|
Post by Farrar on Aug 7, 2018 16:25:19 GMT -5
For wildfire2099 and anyone else who is interested, I came across more Neal vis-à-vis his desire to resurrect Prof. X, as included in the book Comics Creators on X-Men. As Adams tells it: "I said, 'Roy, I think I have a story that will do it. I'm going to set it up when we free all the captured mutants getting out of their tubes and standing around. If you want to name them, you can name them. But the one character that's not going to be there is the Changeling. I'm not going to do it right away, but eventually we'll reveal that the Changeling was really the one who died instead of Professor X.' I'd figured out that Professor X had discovered this incredible plot to destroy the Earth, as a result of which he had to go into hiding for a year in order to try and stop it. Trouble is, he doesn't know how he can hide himself for a whole year. Coincidentally, the Changeling breaks in on him, and says, 'I've got cancer-I'm going to die. I've examined my life and it's been a terrible waste. I can't make up for all the crap I've done, but I'm coming to you to find out if there's anything I can do.' Professor X says, 'There is something you can do You can make yourself look like me...' Then Professor X brings Marvel Girl into it. He says, 'Look, the Changeling is going to die, but it's going to appear to be me that dies. Since he doesn't have my mental abilities, you are going to have to help him. If we want to save Earth, nobody can know I'm gone.' " I heartily recommend this book to those who like behind-the-scenes stuff. It's a series, I also have the volume on the Fantastic Four.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 10, 2018 18:07:49 GMT -5
X-Men #43 'The Torch is Passed' Thomas/Tuska/Tartaglione Plot: As the team comes to terms with the death of Professor X... Old foe Magneto once again has established himself on an island, and is raiding cargo ships for stuff. He has semi-reassembled the Brotherhood... Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch (after the events in Avengers 47-49, where Wanda got hurt and lost her powers. Pietro blamed the Avengers not cared about them enough, and Magneto took advantage.) are back, as is Toad. The Professor left a video, and tells the team Magneto is back, so they investigate and figure out about the shipping, so they stow away on a ship and wait for Magneto to capture it. After a brief fight, Toad lays out the entire team with a mechanical battering ram, than Magneto uses some sort of stasis field to completely defeat our heroes. To be continued! The back up isn't really a story, but a montage/summary of Cyclops' powers... were Roy tells us Cyke is solar powered, his blasts are force only, not heat, and can apparently be used to catch and move stuff like a Green Lantern ring, if he's good enough. Notes: - There are some really fun expressive close ups by Tuska here.. one of Magneto looking surprised, and another of Toad being Toad-ish. He's definitely underrated. - The team loses again, this time in really, really embarassing fashion. At this point, I wouldn't trust them to save a parking spot. - They once again mention money trouble... saying they were only able to bribe their way onto the ship because Warren got his allowance... didn't Xavier leave them the money/mansion? Or are we gearing up for they double sized all legal issue? - I'd love to know how Magneto has the ability to watch everything the X-Men do on TV screens... it did make for a couple cool panels, so I guess one just should not think about it too much. - It was kinda funny that Mags yelled at Toad for suggesting he'd use traps, and then he used a trap. - It was really cool that Quicksilver defied orders and went to Xavier's funeral. I think if it wasn't a comic book and they needed a longer story, it would have been a great scene if the X-Men talked him back from the dark side there at the grave. This was definitely a much better issue than the last couple... but mostly due to the drama with Quicksilver. I think its telling when the cover screams 'The Power of Magneto' when he's the bad guy.
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Aug 21, 2018 19:45:12 GMT -5
Some fun X-Men facts from Roy Thomas in the book "Comic Creators on X-Men" (2006):
* Werner Roth may have used the pseudonym Jay Gavin to hide his work from DC, his sometime employer. Jay and Gavin were his two sons.
* Banshee was supposed to be female, but Stan Lee said the X-Men beating up a girl would not go over well.
* The decision to cancel books lay with Martin Goodman, not Stan Lee. It was also Goodman's call to reject the Neal Adams cover that showed the X-Men pinned to their logo.
* Roy Thomas created the idea of a short, ornery Canadian hero named Wolverine (after rejecting "The Badger") who was eventually joined to a John Romita drawing and debuted in a script by Len Wein with art by Herb Trimpe.
* The new X-Men originated in a meeting between Roy Thomas, Al Landau (the president installed by Marvel's new owners at Cadence) and John Verpoorten, discussing how to juice up their overseas sales by creating a team of international heroes. Thomas suggested resurrecting the X-Men brand.
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Aug 21, 2018 20:01:44 GMT -5
Some fun X-Men facts from Neil Adams in the book "Comic Creators on X-Men" (2006):
* Adams got his first paying comic book job with Archie. They didn't like his sample pages, so he went home and traced some existing Archie pages, and they gave him a job, not recognizing what he had done.
* His next job was on Bat Masterson. He accepted 10% instead of a flat salary of $50 a week. That turned out to be worth $9 a week for the three months he did it.
* Tom Palmer wanted to add highlights to Havok's matte black costume, but Adams promised to pose the limbs so that it was always clear what Havok was doing.
* In issue #65, Stan Lee made Marie Severin alter an image of a giant monster-dog to be another kind of alien.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 5, 2019 12:08:31 GMT -5
X-Men 44Friedrich/Thomas/Heck/Roth/Tartaglione 'Red Raven, Red Raven' Plot: The victorious bad guys debate what to do with our heroes.. Toad wants to kill them.. Quicksilver argues against. Magneto decides he'd rather make the suffer and maybe join up, so Toad pulls out some restraints (each customized) and Magneto makes Quicksilver in charge of their security. After a brief conversation, we find out Quicksilver still fancies himself a good guy, he just hates humans. Mysteriously, there's a high powered laser just lying on the ground near Angel, which is is just able to reach and break out. Instead of freeing his teammates so they can fight back, Cyclops gives up completely and tells him to run away and ask the Avengers for help. Angel escapes, but gets tired trying to fly back to New York.. he lands on a random floating rock, which happens to be the secret base of the bird people, who Red Raven is keeping asleep and secret so they don't try to take over the Earth. Raven defeats Angel after a scuffle and hides his base again, leaving Angel to proceed to New York. To be Continued! 'The Iceman Cometh' Friedrich/Tuska/Verpooten Plot: Bobby Drake has to reveal his powers when some bullies attack him and his girlfriend. The girl gets scared and vows to never see him again, and somehow the bullies get to attack him again and put him in jail. That generated a newspaper article that is seen by Professor X.. to be continued! Plot: D- History: C (1st post-golden age Red Raven.. set up for 2nd major X-Men/Avengers Crossover) Art: B Notes: - I've mentioned some before about how the main problem I see with this team is they always lose.... deciding they can't possibly beat their arch enemy without the Avengers does nothing to help that. - Toad got more screen time than anyone, all of it grovelling about how awesome Magneto was. That's fine, but I didn't need 7 pages of it, and it does telegraph what's coming up next some. The device imprisioning each X-Man was cool though, and much better than today's generic 'Mutant power dampeners' - I wonder if the laser was at some point going to be Quicksilver changing sides, but they changed their mind? Or perhaps I'm misremembering what comes next... - The Iceman story is complete nonsense. I get they're going for the 'mutants are hated and feared' thing, but this was just ridiculous. - Am I missing something with Red Raven? Just Roy Thomas trying to connect extra dots? He seems to have no real place in the MU (he'd make much more sense in the DCU).. he's not really used again for years (a quick fight with Namor, a bit in Thomas' Liberty Legion, then increasingly silly retcons in the 90s and 00s). -Did someone really think pushing ANGEL on the cover was going to help sales? - The internet tells me that Keith Giffen has a letter in the original, which is fun.. he writes about wanting villains to have more staying power, and asking for an Annual (which the response doesn't refuse, but makes clear he's the only one) - Apparently, Quicksilver could very briefly fly? - This is the end of Roy Thomas' run... it seems he wasn't really feeling the characters,, I found this quote (but with no reference, so take it with a grain of salt: I just got busy and something had to go. X-Men wasn't going anywhere and I didn't have such a great attachment to it after the year or so I did it....Stan [Lee] may have played a small part in the decision, because he sometimes had ideas of what I should give up."
|
|
|
Post by Mormel on Feb 5, 2019 13:48:58 GMT -5
-Did someone really think pushing ANGEL on the cover was going to help sales? Don't know if this has been touched upon by anyone, but the reason behind the actual title of the book "X-Men" being dwarfed by other names (Professor X on #42's, Magneto on the previous issue's cover, and this trend will persist until #48) was that Marvel were hoping that billing the book differently would help in sparking some interest in it, as it was floundering. This, combined with the short-lived 'the X-Men split up!' status quo that will kick in a couple issues later, gives me the impression that they were hoping one or two of the X-Men would become the breakout character who would then take over the book altogether.
|
|