|
Post by tolworthy on Dec 3, 2014 3:31:58 GMT -5
So a 16 year old Sue Storm circa WWII makes her an 86 year old hot mama now. That would be the case if time had moved at a regular speed. But heroes began to age more slowly in 1968 (when Franklin was born), and I calculate that she de-aged from 42 to 28 in 1979 (FF 214). From 1989 (FF 328) we've been mostly following a clone team, while time for the real Sue has pretty much stopped. So I calculate that she's still a 30 year old hot mama now. I certainly hope not! Namor is already creepy enough! I think it makes him more sympathetic. 1944 was a difficult time for everyone, especially Namor. Namor is a very lonely guy, the first mutant, not fully accepted by his mother's race or the surface people. He was young and from a different culture. I feel for the guy. I really wish that the Namor/Sue/Reed love triangle would have just been put away after Reed and Sue got married. I think it was put away long before that. The final nail in the coffin of their romance was issue 27. But the big question is why Namor immediately fell for her in issue 4, and why Sue felt so strongly for him in issue 6. But that isn't the reason for my theory. It's more to do with Sue's contradictory chronology and strange secrecy. Nothing makes sense until we look at what happened when she was 15 or 16, and then everything fits IMO.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Dec 2, 2014 17:14:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the encouragement! I was afraid I'd only get eye rolling.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Dec 2, 2014 16:24:18 GMT -5
[edited after further research] Does anyone have Sub-Mariner comics issues 14, 15 or 16? Especially the story "The Ghost of Sea Island" in issue 15? I'm discussing a controversial theory with a fan who's even crazier than me. We reckon that Namor could have had a brief liaison with a 16 year old Susan Storm in 1944 or 1945. I know this would be a shameless retcon, but humour me. I won't go into the evidence, but I'm wondering if this could fit anywhere into Namor's comic at the time? The Marvel Comics Database indicates that Namor had an apartment in New York at the time, where he could be reached by phone. In the story "The Ghost of Sea Island" he spent some time in a hotel (I mischievously wonder if this could be the guest house operated by Susan Storm's aunt in Fantastic Four 291?) marvel.wikia.com/Sub-Mariner_Comics_Vol_1_15Does anyone have any scans of that story?
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Nov 21, 2014 9:42:11 GMT -5
There's a 1960s PLASTIC MAN comic by Arnold Drake featuring a Russian villain, Ivan Byturnozov. For years I didn't get the joke because I mentally pronounced the last name, "By-turn-o-zov." One guess how it was supposed to be pronounced. Reminds me of the Beano's "Babyface Finlayson, the cutest bandit in the west". As a child I read it as "cut -est", like he cuts things. I assumed it was some American phrase that I didn't understand.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Nov 21, 2014 7:08:01 GMT -5
"He ain't heavy, he's my brother" from the end of the first Judge Rico story, where Dredd refuses help in carrying his clone. I thought at the time that it was a wonderful, touching sentiment, a powerful last line. It was many years before I realised it was also a song. Dredd was full of such references, e.g. the names of buildings: but I had a vague idea that those were real people. My first exposure to the names "Sonny Bono" and "Ricardo Montalban" were on the sides of city blocks. I'm always missing stuff in the FF, mainly because the references are often to shows that didn't air in Britain. A random example that comes to mind is when Ben says "hey kids, what time is it?" which apparently comes from something called Howdy Doody. This missing of references is probably why I have a deep seated suspicion that everything in the FF is based on something. Hence my web site.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Nov 17, 2014 9:19:15 GMT -5
Mystery solved then!!! Looks like the Lee-Ditko short stories and later comics were the exception!! And not the rule!! Thanks for the replies!!!
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Nov 17, 2014 6:43:02 GMT -5
A distinctive feature of Jack Kirby's New World books was his use of multiple exclamation marks!!! But I'm reading a lot of old Lee and Ditko stories and I don't see them!! Yet the first four issues of the Fantastic Four are full of them!! (From issue 5 normal punctuation becomes the norm, at least on most pages). My knowledge of non-FF books is limited, so I was wondering,
Did Stan use multiple exclamation marks in other comics of the early sixties or before?
If this is unique, is it a Kirby fingerprint? Or just a sign that Stan was not yet used to superheroes?
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2014 19:20:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the Avengers info. And I'll look up show trials to see if there are any other parallels. Much appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Nov 13, 2014 5:57:39 GMT -5
I was just curious about something I read in a comic from late 1978. I remembered that the folks here seem remarkably clued up on events, movies and comics from the 1970s so I have to ask. In Fantastic Four 206 the team is put on trial by the Skrulls. The issue spends several pages on the Skrull's need to tick all the legal boxes, particularly of the Convention of Fornax. It seems odd to spend so many pages on that. It's never been a consideration before or since, so I wondered, why include it? Any ideas? To me it reads like a commentary on governments doing the minimum needed to rubber stamp international law. Was this kind of thing in the news in the late 1970s? Or in movies? I gather that the convention of Fornax featured in the Avengers, but I don't know much about it. Were the politics of the Kree Skrull war a big deal in other Marvel books of the time? Can anyone fill me in? Thanks for any help.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Oct 9, 2014 14:51:39 GMT -5
You keep on trying to fit it in to your wild little theories. I can see I'm annoying you. Sorry. I enjoy following your logic and seeing where it leads, but not if it bugs you. I won't push the debate any further.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Oct 9, 2014 13:00:43 GMT -5
Not to mention Johnny's habit of flaming on in public in issues 1 and 2. We see him already in flame in public, but do we see him flaming on in public? He flames on in a private garage in front of a single person, a friend. I agree that the team didn't try super hard at secrecy, hence my point about secrecy being untenable. But having a range of secret hideouts seems to suggest that privacy was a goal. Johnny is wearing his uniform at the start of Strange Tales #101. Al the important evidence (essential plot points, characterization, etc.) indicate that ST102 took place at an earlier time. So it is essentially a flashback. There is a long tradition of giving characters their modern appearance in flashbacks: FF 126 being perhaps the best known example.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Oct 9, 2014 10:56:00 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jerry Siegel had more to do with the Torch series than just the two scripts he's credited with (under the pseudonym Joe Carter). The stories have Johnny living in a suburb called Glenville; Jerry grew up in a Cleveland neighborhood called Glenville. And of course Jerry was accustomed to superheroes with secret identities. Fascinating - I didn't know that. Thanks! And since I take the FF far too seriously, let me defend the secret identity thing. Sure it was an accident but it fits perfectly into the events of the time and helps to make the characters three dimensional. For various reasons (detailed on my site) we can date the early Strange Tale stories to between issues 2 and 3 of the FF (even though they were published a year later). This period had to be a lot longer than the two months between publication, and a lot of stuff happened. At this point the FF were not universally loved. Some in the military would still be angry about the unauthorized launch and crash, and the public didn't know the full story of the Skrulls. There is good reason to think that the older generation was generally suspicious of the FF, whereas younger people found them cool and exciting. IMO, this generational divide is key to understanding the secret identities issue before issue 3. The generational divide was clearest in the team itself. Ben hated being The Thing. Reed would rather be in a lab than out fighting monsters. Sue is the most reluctant of all. Until issue 3 they shun publicity and keep their identities secret. But Johnny hates this: he loves his powers, and wants to show the world! This created tremendous tension in the early issues, leading to Johnny quitting the team at the end of issue 3. When we recall that the early Strange Tales stories took place between issues 2 and 3 then suddenly the secret identity makes sense. Johnny is making a token effort to keep his identity secret to please the others. But the situation is untenable and soon breaks down. Strange Tales is full of stuff like this. All the crazy stuff makes more sense when examined in detail. But I fully accept that "making sense" is the last thing most people want from comics. I feel like a party pooper when pointing out alternative views, but hey, it's what I do.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Oct 6, 2014 20:47:25 GMT -5
From what I've read, my impression is that once Stan was convinced that you knew what you were doing and would produce professional-quality output, he pretty much left you alone. He had enough to do, he didn't feel the need to micromanage. Exactly. I don't understand the need to have Stan provide the same input as Jack (or Steve or whoever) on every book. It makes no sense to me. Jack Kirby was prolific, but even at his peak he could "only" produce a book a week. Stan had to put his mark on eight books, plus herd all the cats, plus turn a one office company with no respect into a global powerhouse. And we want him to invent every idea that passes his desk as well? Isn't it enough that Stan took the work of some of the most talented creators in the history of comics and actually improved it? Isn't it enough that he is the foundation and the door and the roof of the house of ideas? Yet we want him to be the bricks and mortar and fill every room as well! Do we really think that creating a successful business is as easy as hiring good people then taking the biggest cut? If that was true than Simon and Kirby and a dozen other top artists who created their own publishers would all be raking in the cash from movie cameos now. But creating a business is darned hard, every bit as hard as drawing a powerful page. To be able to do that and write top class dialog, and even throw out finished scripts at the same time, is amazing. To me the idea that building a business is easy or uncreative is just as offensive as the idea that Jack Kirby was a replaceable hack. Creativity is not limited to what we see on the page, it's everything that gets the ideas into the world's heads. While it's true that the corporate world has plenty of space for parasites, it also requires miracle workers. Just look at the current Marvel movies: these are corporate productions, driven by endless armies of suits, yet they create world pleasers. Other armies of suits have tried and failed to do the same for decades. Easy, it ain't. We can't attribute the movies just to Robert Downey Junior, just as we can't attribute all Marvel's success to Jack Kirby, and that is not to deny they are essential and personally add billions to the bottom line. I say all this as a Fantastic Four obsessive who believes that Jack Kirby is responsible for probably 80 percent of what matters on the printed pages of my favourite comic. But we have to step back and look at the bigger picture. In my mind Stan Lee was every bit as important and creative as Jack Kirby. As Rob said, Stan was too busy (being creative) to want or need to micromanage.
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Oct 4, 2014 10:16:12 GMT -5
Tolworthy, I appreciate your love for the FF ( I love them too) but you make statements like "Another lovely realistic touch" and "Another fascinating subplot is the gradual reveal of how superhero science works. The reason the wall does not collapse will be finally revealed in FF 249, with major implications for the nature of their powers and through that of their psychological inner worlds". Clearly, no one can reconcile the events in the imaginary world of comics and the real world with any consistency, so why bother? Just enjoy the fantasy of the medium. All you can hope for is that the writers stay true to the science and parameters that they established within the stories. Why bother? For the same reason I read any fiction: to explore the real world. There are two ways (at least) to approach fiction: escaping and exploring. it seems to me that most people view comics as escapism, and that's fine. But for me they are about exploring the real world. Take the movie "Captain America: the Winter Soldier" for example. I watched that last night, and it's all about extreme versions of the NSA and Homeland Security. It was about exchanging freedom for "safety". These are real world issues. They matter. They are far more important than flying suits or thumb drives that work first time. Fiction matters. It presents important real world issues in a heightened way. FF issue 7 is not about robots and flying saucers. It's about dictatorship and whether we can trust the military and our governments. it's about how easily we hate people, and how (in the last frame) even the good guys can lie. These things matter. The macguffin of how we get there is trivial. Having said that, I love the FF because even the science fiction make sense. Carl Sagan and Arthur C Clarke wrote books about the possibility of meeting a more advanced race. Sagan and Clarke were not idiots: what they suggested is a realistic possibility, so it's worth exploring. The Fantastic Four simply takes the realistic implications of that. I can show how every single sci-fi concept in the FF is a logical result of that simple premise. Now I agree that most comics are very hard to believe. Secret identities for example are absurd IMO. But the FF was different. I have examined the early issues in great detail, and up to issue 321 everything could take place in the real world. Every huge event is covered by plausible deniability, and every piece of superhero science follows logically from the single alien premise. But most important, it is not about the super powers. It's about the real world: about relationships, about how governments behave, about different approaches to power (Reed's technological fixes versus Sue's intuition for example). it's about self belief (or lack of it in Ben's case), how we treat others (see Reed and Ben), how we treat outsiders (see Sue and everyone), things that matter. The King summed it up best:
|
|
|
Post by tolworthy on Oct 3, 2014 10:08:18 GMT -5
he only came up with a design capable of traveling to the moon or Mars, when later he would be building ships that could travel to the Skrull home world? I like how all the technology is firmly within 1961 possibilities, then Reed uses whatever alien gadget he has at the time. The 1961 flight was a test flight, like Yuri Gagarin's, and only just got past the atmosphere (though NASA's long term plan was to get to the Moon, then Mars, then beyond). The Skrull home world trip is a good example of combining alien tech with 1960s realism. Reed was able to use a Saturn V rocket to escape Earth's atmosphere, then it looks like he hitched a ride aboard the Skrull transporter ray (also called a space warp) for the remainder of the journey. Incidentally, they see the origin of the transporter ray (also used as a power ray) in FF annual 19: it may have been the standard method for Skrulls to reach Earth.
|
|