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Post by nairb73 on Sept 5, 2024 13:44:24 GMT -5
I never liked 'Ditko Gwen', looks or personality. About all I can add is that Gwen was probably the 'least worst looking' of Ditko's women.
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 5, 2024 17:04:08 GMT -5
I never liked 'Ditko Gwen', looks or personality. About all I can add is that Gwen was probably the 'least worst looking' of Ditko's women. I must agree; Ditko was not the best at illustrating women, and usually, his Gwen appeared as if she had only a couple of emotional states: angry or snippy. When she was in another frame of mind, Ditko's version still appeared rather unattractive. Compare Ditko's Gwen to Romita's:
Major improvement across the board from Romita. Now, one might argue that its an unfair comparison because Romita--among his many artistic gifts--was one of the best romance comic artists, so illustrating attractive women was a necessity of the genre, but Ditko should have been able to soften the bizarre features to some degree.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 5, 2024 17:32:38 GMT -5
I gotta say, I've never seen anything wrong with Ditko's women. There's actually quite a lot of diversity in his depictions of the fairer sex. They're not all drop dead gorgeous, for one thing -- Betty, for example, has a rather smart, professional look, with slightly above average looks, very much in keeping with her character. Then there's Liz Allen who is clearly more of a "looker" than Betty and younger too, and Ditko illustrates that difference very deftly and consistently. But when he needed to draw a real stunner, as he did with Gwen Stacy and Clea, for instance, Ditko did that very well too, I think.
I'd agree that Gwen's character is harsher under Ditko than she was during the Lee/Romita era, but that's her personality: I don't think she really looks harsh as a character. She still looks like a babe to me! Of course, she did become even more gorgeous when Romita started drawing her, but as Tarkintino points out, that was his abilities as a romance comic artist coming out. Drawing gorgeous ladies was much more Romita's thing than it was Ditko's.
Something else to note is that Peter and his supporting cast became much cooler looking overall under Romita than they had been under Ditko. I think Ditko was still very much drawing on mainstream, late '50s and early 60s fashion. Once Romita comes on board, the post-British Invasion, "Swinging Sixties" really begin for Peter and the gang.
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jtrw2024
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 5, 2024 17:45:07 GMT -5
In what was tradition in the 1980s MT reprints, the cover were utterly drained of their original, rich coloring in favor of a process that would do much to drive a potential, uninitiated reader away. Well, the running cover comparisons never lean in favor of the latest reprint. I don't disagree about the original cover colouring almost always being superior to the mid-80s Marvel Tales reprints, but in defence of whoever recoloured those covers (probably Andy Yanchus?), they use a much more contemporary palette than the originals (and I mean, contemporary by mid-80s standards, of course). So, they were absolutely in keeping with the rest of Marvel's line in at that point. As somebody who was buying these reprints off the newsagent’s shelf at the time (just as jtrw2024 was), I have to say that those covers always caught my eye – which was a combination of Ditko's art and the colouring, of course – so, those covers were doing their job. Besides, it's not as if I had the original comics to compare them with anyway -- in fact, I didn't even really realise that these were reprints back then: I thought Marvel Tales was just a comic that told stories from Spider-Man's early days, as a companion to the present-day stories of Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man. So, in terms of making these 20-year-old comics appealing to young children in the 1980s, I think those re-coloured Marvel Tales covers did a good job. I'm thinking the cover colours may not have been done by Andy Yanchus. Some of the colour choices on the covers just seem different than those he was making on the inside pages. According to his Wikipedia entry George Roussos was Marvel's cover colourist in the early 1980s so chances are he could have been doing the colours for these Marvel Tales covers. If Marvel actually had a designated cover colourist, then it was probably common for the interior colours (which were usually included in the credits) to be done by someone different than whoever did the covers.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 5, 2024 17:52:49 GMT -5
^^Yeah, you're quite possibly right jtrw2024. I was only guessing that it was Andy Yanchus because he was doing the interiors. But I take your point about the different colour choices on the covers when compared to Yanchus's work inside.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Sept 5, 2024 18:31:44 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 35 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 174) “The Molten Man Regrets…!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): Script & Editing Stan Lee Plot & Artwork Steve Ditko Lettering & Loitering Artie Simek Coloring & Cavorting Andy Yanchus Plot Synopsis: The Molten Man Returns! Comments: The Molten Man’s scheme this issue is interesting and not really what you’d expect from him based on his first and most of his later appearances. Nice that his plan doesn’t immediately involve going after Spider-man for revenge too. In his first appearance Raxton was shown to be motivated by greed, and shown to have a quick temper, and a violent streak to go with it. He was working as Smythe's assistant at the time, and the dialogue revealed that the two of them worked together to produce the liquid metal alloy that turned him into the Molten Man. He must have had some intelligence (and likely some scientific background) to qualify him for that job, some of which he demonstrates here. First by coming up with various disguises to conceal his molten features (and cleverly remembering to dispose of the disguises after the crimes so as not to leave anything to connect him to it), and also by using his metal skin to detect the sound of the tumblers to get into the safe at the jewellery store he wants to rob. As far as costumes go, originally he was satisfied with just ripping up his clothes, but now the Molten Man wears a pair of shorts and boots coloured to match his shiny metal complexion. . As good as the Molten Man's scheme may have been, Spider-man’s plan to track down the villain and gather photographic evidence of his crimes to give to the police was even better. He even managed to save a few photos to sell to Jameson. You don’t see him come out this lucky too often. Paying a visit to the Daily Bugle at the end of the story Peter learns from Jameson's new secretary that both Betty and Ned have left (together, he presumes, to get married). Any hopes he may have had of reconciling with Betty are shattered by the end of this story. This issue uses a lot of big panels, and the action takes up more space than usual. None of the usual supporting cast make an appearance. There’s even a whole two page sequence where the sound effects take the place of the usual dialogue. The caption states that this was intended to give Artie Simek a chance to go wild with the sound effects, and he does a darn good job. It’s a fight sequence too, so it is appropriate, but still way different than what we’re used to. The art seems a bit rushed in most places, with less detail on the backgrounds. It reminds me a lot of Steve Ditko's art from the 80s and 90s, which wasn't nearly as good as what one expects from his Spider-man work. I’m wondering if there were some sort of deadline delays with this issue. Perhaps the overall look and tone of this issue was just due to the usual problems between Stan Lee and Steve Ditko which would culminate in Ditko’s departure in a few months. Even the cover isn't that great. The published cover has the Spider-man figure redrawn by Jack Kirby which I think is better than an earlier Spider-man drawing he did for the cover of Amazing Spider-man 10. Marvel Tales would usually print unpublished covers as backup features when they were available, but this one wasn't included. Fortunately plenty of other reprint collections do include it. I do like the way the original Ditko version of this cover has Spidey hanging from his webs, but still, I think it's one of his weakest compositions. . The couple issues following this seem to be a bit more polished, closer to what one expects from this series, so it’s nice to see every thing back on track for at least a short while before John Romita comes on board. There's a huge panel preview of next issue's exciting new villain, but reader's don't get to learn his name yet (assuming he even had one at this point) Notable differences in the reprint: The letters page is now just called “Post Office of the Past”, and contains only reprinted letters commenting on the story we just read. There is a new editorial feature however called “View from the Tenth Floor” by departing editor Danny Fingeroth. There’s still a note on where to send letters to even though they don’t seem to be printing any new ones. Jim Owsley is now Editor, and Keith Williams, the new Assistant Editor The second page, usually devoted to the letters column contains a reprint of the Marvel Bullpen Bulletins as it appeared in the original ASM 35 (although the MMMS application form is marked VOID) I’m noticing the covers lately seem to be matching the colour choices of the originals pretty closely (maybe a bit brighter in tone which was either intentional, or just due to different paper or printing methods). I wonder if the original colour proofs were still available for the covers. They didn't even bother to change the colour of the spider-beam. Personal anecdotes: As it happens, this was the final Lee/Ditko era story I read. It was the only one, other than the last part of the Master Planner trilogy that I hadn’t read until I got the Essential Spider-man collection way back in the late 90s. All the ones before and after were familiar to me, having encountered them in random order over the years, but at the time it was brand new. I’m sure I must have seen it at some point in a back issue bin, but if I was looking for Marvel Tales issues that I needed, there was probably always something more interesting at the time. As with all these issues, eventually I’d get whatever back issues I was missing, but this read-through might very well be the first time reading this version.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 5, 2024 20:33:13 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 34 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 173) That's a nice, dynamic cover. We last saw Kraven, apparently out of prison, in a cameo appearance way back in issue 18, but he’s just getting around to his revenge scheme now. Kraven has travelled back to Africa from the U.S. between now and his last appearance though. So, I guess that's why he's only getting around to planning his revenge on Spider-Man now. I think this is the last appearance of Betty Brant during Ditko’s run. Her nightmare at the beginning of this issue where Peter reveals his secret is as close to the truth as you can get. Yeah, Betty's dream is unknowingly spot on…or maybe sub-consciously she does know about Peter's secret identity? Too bad they haven't really gotten to know the real Peter Parker yet, but Gwen is almost starting to come around. Gwen felt attracted towards Peter right from her first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #31. She also felt intense annoyance at the fact that he wasn't paying her any attention and that bitterness towards him continues into this issue. So, I don't think it's really a case of Gwen "starting to come around" where Peter is concerned. She's actually kinda low-key obsessed with him! Notice how in this panel on page 9 she's looking over towards Peter – she just can't help herself! She might be mad at him for not falling head over heels in love with her at first sight, but she's definitely very interested in him. The fight scenes between Kraven and Spidey are as good as any Ditko has drawn. A few extra goons try to get in on the action too, but in the end it's Spidey who wins the fight. I noticed while re-reading this issue that the encounter between Spider-Man and Kraven in the derelict apartment block is the inspiration for the 1966 Aurora model kit of Spidey and Kraven. The kit shows Spider-Man perched on a broken stairway banister, while Kraven lies webbed on the floor. Not that a scene exactly like that ever happens in the comic, but panels like the ones below are clearly where the model kit designers took their inspiration from… Ever the honourable villain, once he's defeated, Kraven even admits to the police that it was he who impersonated Spider-man, keeping our hero's reputation as close to clean as it ever was. Yeah, that's a nice touch with Kraven and it serves to mark him out as something a little different, as far as Spidey's villains are concerned. This is clearly a man of honour. Overall, this is a good, solid issue of Amazing Spider-Man. It's nice to see Kraven back again, though I had to laugh at him spraying Spidey with "Jungle Scent" to dull Peter's spider-senses (it sounds like a cheap aftershave). There are some fun scenes with the supporting cast in this issue. Nicely drawn fight sequence by Ditko too! Plus, it's nice to hear Spidey cracking-wise while he's fighting the bad guy again. I can't say that this is a particularly noteworthy issue or anything, but there's nothing really wrong with it either.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 5, 2024 20:37:06 GMT -5
The Molten Man return was another reprinted in The Spectacular Spider-Man treasury edition, which was my Spidey go-to, for a long time, aside from MTU.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Sept 6, 2024 0:04:09 GMT -5
Issue 35 was the oldest ASM I ever owned. I believe it was a birthday, or maybe Xmas, present from my sister when I was probably 9 or 10 years old. I remember being disappointed with the gift because I already had the Marvel Tales reprint, so it wasn't new to me, and as a child I didn't care it was the original and more valuable. The cover almost immediately fell off. I can't remember exactly what happened to it, other than by the time I was in my mid 20s it was gone
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 6, 2024 1:12:27 GMT -5
I think Ditko modelled Gwen after Veronica Lake. And yes, not fair to compare Romita women to anybody.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 6, 2024 1:19:50 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 34 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 173) I’m pretty sure the first time I read this story was in the 1980s Marvel Tales reprint which I bought brand new off a spinner rack. It’s still my favorite Kraven the Hunter story.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 6, 2024 5:29:39 GMT -5
I think Ditko modelled Gwen after Veronica Lake. Fascinating info there, kirby101. Looking at images of Lake online, I can definitely see a strong resemblance...
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Sept 6, 2024 9:44:04 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 35 The published cover has the Spider-man figure redrawn by Jack Kirby which I think is better than an earlier Spider-man drawing he did for the cover of Amazing Spider-man 10. Marvel Tales would usually print unpublished covers as backup features when they were available, but this one wasn't included. Fortunately plenty of other reprint collections do include it. I do like the way the original Ditko version of this cover has Spidey hanging from his webs, but still, I think it's one of his weakest compositions. . I'm not sure I've ever seen that original Ditko cover before, so thank you for posting that. I have to say, I think Stan Lee was right to get Jack Kirby to redraw the Spider-Man figure – the whole cover looks much more dynamic and aesthetically pleasing in the finished version. The GCD says that the Spider-Man figure was "probably inked by Sol Brodsky". “The Molten Man Regrets…!” The title is surely a play on the old Cole Porter song, "Miss Otis Regrets", I would think. The Molten Man’s scheme this issue is interesting and not really what you’d expect from him based on his first and most of his later appearances. Nice that his plan doesn’t immediately involve going after Spider-man for revenge too. I strongly suspect that Raxton being released on remand for good behaviour and more or less straight away returning to a life of crime was Ditko injecting some full-on, right-wing Randian objectivism into this story – only to have Stan Lee sensibly water it down with his scripting. I can't prove that, obviously, but if you look at the story the artwork in this issue is telling, without paying attention to Stan's dialogue, this reads much more like a Randian morality tale than what we usually get in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. Knowing how Ditko would later write and draw similar cautionary tales about the "dangers" of being soft on criminals in his Mr. A and Killjoy strips, I strongly suspect this is the case. I think this story was meant to carry a sub-text about never trusting the criminal mind and never treating criminals with compassion or leniency. This issue uses a lot of big panels, and the action takes up more space than usual. None of the usual supporting cast make an appearance. There’s even a whole two page sequence where the sound effects take the place of the usual dialogue. The caption states that this was intended to give Artie Simek a chance to go wild with the sound effects, and he does a darn good job. It’s a fight sequence too, so it is appropriate, but still way different than what we’re used to. I agree that this issue is unusually light on plot and totally bereft of Peter's usual high school drama. There's really not very much to this story at all, other than Raxton being released from jail by a lenient judge, only to commit more crimes, and then Spidey beats the hell out of him. The fact that the battle between Molten Man and Spider-Man goes on for as long as it does, speaks of Ditko having to fill out the page count, when there really wasn't quite enough story here. Stan even alludes to this paucity of story on the splash page, writing " This is one for the real old-fashioned, dyed-in-the-wool Spidey fanatics who like to see ol' web-head fighting as only he can!" The art seems a bit rushed in most places, with less detail on the backgrounds. It reminds me a lot of Steve Ditko's art from the 80s and 90s, which wasn't nearly as good as what one expects from his Spider-man work. Hmmm...I can't say that I noticed a deterioration in the artwork in this issue. The Molten Man is visually a fantastic looking villain and I think Ditko does a great job of depicting his metallic gold skin (and his tiny speedo shorts, natch! ). Also, Ditko's fight sequence between Raxton and Spidey is brilliantly drawn, with plenty of bone-crunching punches and some exciting acrobatics (though it does go on too long, in my opinion). So yeah, I can't say I see any deterioration in the artwork myself. All in all, this is kind of an average issue of ASM. Story-wise, it's way below the high standards we're used to. This is definite evidence of Ditko going off the boil at this point, I think. However, something that I feel should be mentioned for its immense historical significance is that Amazing Spider-Man #35 features the first mention in a Spider-Man comic of Irving Forbush!
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 6, 2024 12:53:27 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 35 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 174) Very unappealing cover. TASM #35 saw its first reprint in Marvel Tales #28 (October, 1970) with another Marie Severin cover. Frankly, it is not the best cover, but its markedly superior to the original, which has one of the most awkward physical positions of Spider-Man ever to appear on the main title (until McFarlane's 1000-car pile up "art"). The Ditko Spider-Man for the cover--the entire composition is simply poor and quite unimaginative. The Molten Man appears as if he's hopping from one foot to the other
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Post by tarkintino on Sept 6, 2024 12:57:01 GMT -5
I think Ditko modelled Gwen after Veronica Lake. And yes, not fair to compare Romita women to anybody. Well, Nick Cardy, Gene Colan, Neal Adams, John Severin and others were quite talented in illustrating women, with Cardy coming close to Romita level.
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