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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 30, 2023 14:55:19 GMT -5
How do you feel about a character that debuts and his ongoing spinoff series is a team book ? Can you give me an example? |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 30, 2023 14:58:24 GMT -5
What is the ruling on X-Men spinoffs like New Mutants and Excalibur, which started off as a graphic novel and prestige format one shot? Hmm, good question. I throw the question open to the group. Should these series (and X-Factor) be counted as spin-offs of Uncanny X-Men, since they share that title's basic premise even though they technically didn't debut in the comic? I'm inclined to say yes (this would also allow She-Hulk to qualify) but will bow to the consensus opinion.
I would say that X-Factor is not exactly a spin-off, even according to the description above, as it's a mere repackaging of the original X-Men. It's like calling the New Mutants "X-Force" all of a sudden; it's not a spin-off, it's a change in title. She-Hulk is a commercial spin-off, clearly (and one I'd dearly want to include in my list, thanks to the fun I had reading Dan Slott's run) but she was not introduced in another feature. She's not a character spun off into her own mag due to her popularity or her potential; she was created from scratch to maintain a trademark. The New Mutants are also a commercial spin-off, but they were created from the ground up to cash in on the X-Men's popularity; their origin is commercial in nature. Excalibur is a different thing: the characters therein had all appeared elsewhere, and many of them had fallen by the wayside; their joining together to form a new team does look like a proper character-based spin-off to me. But then my ability to judge what a proper spin-off should be is founded on no qualification whatsoever! |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 30, 2023 15:06:17 GMT -5
Okay, RR, I bow to your logic. We'll stick with my original definition and exclude what you aptly describe as "commercial spin-offs."
Cei-U!
I summon the final word!
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Nov 30, 2023 15:28:20 GMT -5
Okay, RR, I bow to your logic. We'll stick with my original definition and exclude what you aptly describe as " commercial spin-offs." Cei-U! I summon the final word! On the other hand, all spin-offs are commercial-this is popular let's see if we can make more money from it b spinning off an element from it. No spin off in any entertainment industry is not commercial in nature and none would happen if someone didn't think they were commercially viable, so I find designating some commercial and non-eligible and some just as commercial but eligible to be incredibly arbitrary. Just my 2 cents. I think starts as a guest or support in one feature and gets its own feature later is a good baseline for spin-off, because intent is assumed not known. Did Jack intend or hope to spin off Panther, Surfer or the Inhuman into their own strip when he introduced them into FF? We don't know. If he did does that make them commercial and ineligible? Dis Marvel have aspirations for Wolverine when he was introduced in Hulk? If they did was it then commercial and ineligible? It's a can of worms and its arbitrary, confusing the matter more than helping. If you make commercial ineligible, then a case can be made that every spin off is ineligible on those grounds, and we don't have a topic. -M |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 30, 2023 15:31:38 GMT -5
Hmmm. While I agree with RR about X-factor, I would take an opposing tack on some of the others, along the lines of what MRP just said.
So I'd say the New Mutants are a spin-off because, even though they did not first appear in X-men, they only exist because of the X-men, they were established by Prof. X and they are pupils in the same school as the X-men. And they were very much marketed to readers/fans of the X-men.
I'd use that same logic to define both She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel as well (the actual commercial/trademark reasons for their creation - as with the New Mutants - notwithstanding); the origins and powers of both are very much tied to the respective characters they resemble, the Hulk and Captain Marvel. (Just as Spider-woman would not be, because she has absolutely no connection to Spider-man.)
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Post by tartanphantom on Nov 30, 2023 15:59:05 GMT -5
I'm going to be a bystander only in this challenge, but watching the rules being hammered out is entertaining itself, and the first round is still 2 weeks away.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 30, 2023 16:32:57 GMT -5
So I'd say the New Mutants are a spin-off because, even though they did not first appear in X-men, they only exist because of the X-men, they were established by Prof. X and they are pupils in the same school as the X-men. And they were very much marketed to readers/fans of the X-men. Quite true, but I don't think a comic-book encyclopedia would say "and then the New Mutants were spun off in their own series". The concept of the New Mutants is a spin on that of the X-Men, no argument there, but by that definition we could argue that any super-team is a spin on The Justice Society of America. I guess we could argue that their being in the same mansion and having Professor X as a mentor makes them closer to the X-Men than any other team, but it gets increasingly harder to decide where the line is when if we start considering characters, general concepts, inspiration and the like. That's why I liked Kurt's original definition: it's pretty straightforward. (And I so wanted to nominate She-Hulk! Or Kit Ryan, who only had a one-issue special!) You're not wrong, but the difference I see between She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel is that Carol Danvers was there before there was a Ms.Marvel comic, while no one had ever heard of Jen Walters before She-Hulk #1. Spider-Woman, yeah... she has no link to Spider-Man. It would be the same thing with Monica Rambeau and Mar-Vell, or with Adam Warlock and Warlock the New Mutant. (TM) secured, but no connection. |
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Post by MDG on Nov 30, 2023 16:50:41 GMT -5
I'm going to be a bystander only in this challenge, but watching the rules being hammered out is entertaining itself, and the first round is still 2 weeks away. I may sit this out as well--I've only got 4 or 5 on the list and I should boycott since the "no strips" rule means I can't use Snuffy Smith!! |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 30, 2023 16:52:47 GMT -5
I'm going to be a bystander only in this challenge, but watching the rules being hammered out is entertaining itself, and the first round is still 2 weeks away. I may sit this out as well--I've only got 4 or 5 on the list and I should boycott since the "no strips" rule means I can't use Snuffy Smith!! I say Bah Humbug to both of you. Bah Humbug! |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Nov 30, 2023 17:06:52 GMT -5
What is the ruling on X-Men spinoffs like New Mutants and Excalibur, which started off as a graphic novel and prestige format one shot? Hmm, good question. I throw the question open to the group. Should these series (and X-Factor) be counted as spin-offs of Uncanny X-Men, since they share that title's basic premise even though they technically didn't debut in the comic? I'm inclined to say yes (this would also allow She-Hulk to qualify) but will bow to the consensus opinion. Cei-U! I summon the debate!
If you allow those, then you would probably have to allow characters introduced in someone else's series with the explicit purpose of promoting their own series as well. X-Factor should already fit your guidelines for a spin-off. New Mutants and Excalibur were clearly introduced to become their own titles without any concern for organically emerging from the pages of their parent title. However, New Mutants fans could always go with the Magik limited series... |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 30, 2023 17:10:41 GMT -5
Both MRP and Edo make intelligent counterarguments to RR's point (and reflect my initial thinking on those particular series) but at this juncture, I think we'll stick to the rules as defined in the original post, if only to forestall endless rules lawyering.
Cei-U!
I wave the white flag!
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Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 30, 2023 17:20:22 GMT -5
I'm going to be a bystander only in this challenge, but watching the rules being hammered out is entertaining itself, and the first round is still 2 weeks away. I may sit this out as well--I've only got 4 or 5 on the list and I should boycott since the "no strips" rule means I can't use Snuffy Smith!! Actually, since we're talking about rules, I don't think there's a rule that says participants *must* have 12 picks. You could probably just go with the ones you have. |
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Post by DubipR on Nov 30, 2023 17:46:14 GMT -5
I may sit this out as well--I've only got 4 or 5 on the list and I should boycott since the "no strips" rule means I can't use Snuffy Smith!! Actually, since we're talking about rules, I don't think there's a rule that says participants *must* have 12 picks. You could probably just go with the ones you have. I'd be alright with a 8 Days of HannuaKomics, for us Chosen People. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 30, 2023 17:46:52 GMT -5
How do you feel about a character that debuts and his ongoing spinoff series is a team book ? Can you give me an example? Can I use Kid Flash appearing in the Teen Titans as his series ? |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 30, 2023 19:00:25 GMT -5
Can you give me an example? Can I use Kid Flash appearing in the Teen Titans as his series ? His solo back-up series predates the first Titans story so, sorry, no.
Cei-U! I summon the big ol' negatory!
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