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Post by driver1980 on Nov 11, 2023 7:43:15 GMT -5
I read this last night:  Spidey battled The Cat, who, obviously, was a cat burglar. In a relative sense, The Cat was an ordinary opponent when compared with Lizard, Dr. Octopus, Doctor Doom, etc. And that’s fine for me. The ordinary makes the special stuff stand out - that’s what special means, eh? I mean, if Christmas Day was every day, or every week, or every month, it’d be less special, right? I feel with modern Marvel - when I read it - nothing is special because everything is ‘special’. There are constant events. Constant threats to the cosmos. Even fatigue. And it goes beyond that: it seems supporting casts aren’t necessarily ordinary, someone has worn an armour, had powers, is a spy, has been a spy, etc. Most wrestling matches are regular matches. They should be. We get occasional gimmick matches such as steel cage matches, ladder matches, no DQ matches, etc. Those things stand out because they are special (or should be). As a wrestling fan, I’d feel burnt out if every match was a gimmick match, if every wrestling episode of a particular show featured a cage match, etc. Regularity makes the special stuff stand out. I feel the lack of regularity/ordinariness in modern Marvel is what makes me feel burnt out. I feel I don’t care. Why would I? Just my view, of course. But how can I care about the latest issue of Spidey or Cap when it’s the hundredth earth-shattering/cosmos-shattering arc of recent years? Why would I care about the latest X-Men vs. Magneto “event” when there’s been a dozen or so already in the last 3, 4 or 5 years? It’s totally on me. Everyone’s mileage varies. But I feel burnout is a thing, at least for me. It’s relentless. It’s perpetual. And it is what sells, I know. Marvel isn’t making comics for a fool like me. They’re making it for the masses. But I feel a bit of “ordinary” now and again (while still providing entertainment) might make the bigger stuff stand out. Secret Wars probably felt special back in the day because it wasn’t the norm. Today, if they did Secret Wars III or something, it wouldn’t feel special because it’d be just another cosmos-shaking arc that fans have seen a million times before. A little bit of ordinary is a good thing. So, yes, I enjoyed reading Spidey versus a cat burglar. In the grand scheme of things, maybe it can’t quite measure up to Spidey versus Doctor Doom, or Spidey versus the Hulk in a cave. But it was good to read. And an ordinary Spidey tale can only make the bigger stuff stand out. Spidey versus Green Goblin in “The Night Gwen Stacy Died” is special - and not every tale should be akin to that. Just like this wrestling fan doesn’t think every match should be as big and as atmospheric as Hogan vs Andre in the Pontiac Silverdome. I just can’t care about a Marvel where many supporting characters are extraordinary, and where everything is intense, epic and earth-shattering. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 11, 2023 8:02:27 GMT -5
I read this last night: Spidey battled The Cat, who, obviously, was a cat burglar. In a relative sense, The Cat was an ordinary opponent when compared with Lizard, Dr. Octopus, Doctor Doom, etc. And that’s fine for me. The ordinary makes the special stuff stand out - that’s what special means, eh? I mean, if Christmas Day was every day, or every week, or every month, it’d be less special, right? I feel with modern Marvel - when I read it - nothing is special because everything is ‘special’. There are constant events. Constant threats to the cosmos. Even fatigue. And it goes beyond that: it seems supporting casts aren’t necessarily ordinary, someone has worn an armour, had powers, is a spy, has been a spy, etc. Most wrestling matches are regular matches. They should be. We get occasional gimmick matches such as steel cage matches, ladder matches, no DQ matches, etc. Those things stand out because they are special (or should be). As a wrestling fan, I’d feel burnt out if every match was a gimmick match, if every wrestling episode of a particular show featured a cage match, etc. Regularity makes the special stuff stand out. I feel the lack of regularity/ordinariness in modern Marvel is what makes me feel burnt out. I feel I don’t care. Why would I? Just my view, of course. But how can I care about the latest issue of Spidey or Cap when it’s the hundredth earth-shattering/cosmos-shattering arc of recent years? Why would I care about the latest X-Men vs. Magneto “event” when there’s been a dozen or so already in the last 3, 4 or 5 years? It’s totally on me. Everyone’s mileage varies. But I feel burnout is a thing, at least for me. It’s relentless. It’s perpetual. And it is what sells, I know. Marvel isn’t making comics for a fool like me. They’re making it for the masses. But I feel a bit of “ordinary” now and again (while still providing entertainment) might make the bigger stuff stand out. Secret Wars probably felt special back in the day because it wasn’t the norm. Today, if they did Secret Wars III or something, it wouldn’t feel special because it’d be just another cosmos-shaking arc that fans have seen a million times before. A little bit of ordinary is a good thing. So, yes, I enjoyed reading Spidey versus a cat burglar. In the grand scheme of things, maybe it can’t quite measure up to Spidey versus Doctor Doom, or Spidey versus the Hulk in a cave. But it was good to read. And an ordinary Spidey tale can only make the bigger stuff stand out. Spidey versus Green Goblin in “The Night Gwen Stacy Died” is special - and not every tale should be akin to that. Just like this wrestling fan doesn’t think every match should be as big and as atmospheric as Hogan vs Andre in the Pontiac Silverdome. I just can’t care about a Marvel where many supporting characters are extraordinary, and where everything is intense, epic and earth-shattering. What separated the "special" from the ordinary was the soap opera elements that Marvel used. The ordinary day to day relationships made the hero side of the comic pop . |
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 11, 2023 8:07:38 GMT -5
Definitely.
And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 11, 2023 8:43:03 GMT -5
Definitely. And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary. I remember starting a thread a few years ago that stated that everyone eventually gets powers. It seems every supporting cast member gets a power or becomes a hero for a while. |
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 11, 2023 8:46:27 GMT -5
Definitely. And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary. I remember starting a thread a few years ago that stated that everyone eventually gets powers. It seems every supporting cast member gets a power or becomes a hero for a while. I think I’m okay with a quirky, one-off Silver Age tale, or an “imaginary story”. But if it’s a major arc, or a continual story, I don’t think it serves them; I’d prefer them to be the ordinary folk that provide a contrast to the super heroic stuff. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 11, 2023 8:49:51 GMT -5
I used to have a quote as part of my signature that said "I'd rather read about the Golden Age Atom exposing a crooked car dealer* than watch The X-Men save the universe again." I still stand by that.
Cei-U!
I summon the human touch!
* A real plot from early in his all-American Comics run
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 11, 2023 8:51:47 GMT -5
I used to have a quote as part of my signature that said "I'd rather read about the Golden Age Atom exposing a crooked car dealer* than watch The X-Men save the universe again." I still stand by that. Cei-U! I summon the human touch! * A real plot from early in his all-American Comics run I’ll definitely drink to that. |
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Post by Rags on Nov 11, 2023 11:06:22 GMT -5
Definitely. And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary.
I did roll my eyes when Aunt May got some kind of powers in a Marvel Team-Up....one I refuse to own lol
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 11, 2023 12:31:50 GMT -5
FWIW, I couldn't agree more with your premise driver1980. And it applies not just to comics, but to books, movies, theatre and I'm sure other art forms as well. As others have also said hereabouts, a lack of funds, star power, pages or whatever else you might think you "need" as a creator often serves as a surer path to creativity and skillful presentation than all the CGI, money, or whatever in the world. Give me a well made anything over yet another bloated spectacular. |
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Post by The Captain on Nov 11, 2023 13:14:31 GMT -5
Definitely. And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary.
I did roll my eyes when Aunt May got some kind of powers in a Marvel Team-Up....one I refuse to own lol
I have a similar feeling about issue #11 of "What If" where the Marvel Bullpen gets the powers of the Fantastic Four. I have every other issue in that series except that one, because the entire concept of it irritates me to no end. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 11, 2023 14:01:01 GMT -5
Definitely. And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary. I remember starting a thread a few years ago that stated that everyone eventually gets powers. It seems every supporting cast member gets a power or becomes a hero for a while. I don't think Mrs. Abrogast ever got any powers! (Tony Stark's elderly secretary from the 80s and 90s) She's about the only one I can think of though |
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 11, 2023 14:21:54 GMT -5
Definitely. And that is why I am not keen on some modern comics I’ve read, where a supporting character has a power, armour, becomes a hero, etc. I don’t mind Jimmy Olsen becoming a werewolf or something, but if everyone has some special skill, talent or history, they aren’t ordinary.
I did roll my eyes when Aunt May got some kind of powers in a Marvel Team-Up....one I refuse to own lol
I didn’t mind that one as it was Assistant Editors’ Month (and were any of those tales really canonical anyway?). |
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 11, 2023 14:32:09 GMT -5
FWIW, I couldn't agree more with your premise driver1980 . And it applies not just to comics, but to books, movies, theatre and I'm sure other art forms as well. As others have also said hereabouts, a lack of funds, star power, pages or whatever else you might think you "need" as a creator often serves as a surer path to creativity and skillful presentation than all the CGI, money, or whatever in the world. Give me a well made anything over yet another bloated spectacular. Absolutely! Not exactly the same, but when I watch films, I need different kinds of films. If I watch a 3-hour courtroom drama, then I don’t want the next 2 films to be 3-hour courtroom dramas. I need a change of tone, so I’ll switch to, say, a comedy or something. So if I was to read a 3-issue Spidey arc, then maybe the next Spidey story I read will be lighter, or with a villain of lesser renown. If someone went to a theme park, then they might not want to go on 10 rollercoasters, one after the other. By the third rollercoaster, they’d be bored and the rollercoaster would feel “routine”. So a group of people might walk around and do other things, such as go in the shop or visit the ghost train. And maybe they’ll do one more rollercoaster before they leave. It’s about balance. Less is more. Modern Marvel doesn’t get that. For commercial reasons, no doubt. But when I’ve dipped in to an X-Men book, I find myself leaving it after 12 months or so, because one exhausting event after another gets boring, routine and repetitive - it leaves you wishing that the next couple of issues could simply feature The Blob or Juggernaut smashing through a bank. But I realise the business model is what it is. Also, things should be as relatable as possible, I feel. A crooked car dealer is something we can relate to, either through experience or via the local news media. That’s a relatable thing, so I would definitely read the tale that Cei-U! mentioned. Batman and Robin investigating a person stealing from jewellery stories is relatable. Even Superman stories can be relatable. But how relatable are constant cosmic events, one after the other? I’m not saying we go the other way entirely. I don’t want 3 years of Atom versus crooked car dealer stories, but the other extreme is the event/arc mindset. I’d like something in between. |
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Post by commond on Nov 12, 2023 2:47:54 GMT -5
I don't know if they classify as modern since I'm about ten years behind, but recently I've been reading about an out-of-costume Hawkeye battling a bunch of Russian mobsters, lovable loser Boomerang trying to land that one big score, and Silver Surfer surfing around the cosmos with Dawn Greenwood. Not exactly ordinary, but highly original, and very different from mainstream Marvel.
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Post by berkley on Nov 12, 2023 3:45:42 GMT -5
I think you definitely want to see some variety in an ongoing series, but personally I've always had a problem with superheroes beating up on non-powered opponents. Even as a kid it felt like there was something off about that scenario: I knew I was supposed to be happy that the mugger, who was himself preying on a weaker victim, was getting what he deserved, but that type of scene never gave me satisfaction. Perhaps the power fantasy was too obvious in these scenes - the victim saved was rarely given a personality, the whole scene was just showing how superior Spider-Man or whoever was physically to the mugger.
And «i think this applies to superheroes fighting organised crime as well, but maybe I haven't read enough of those comics to say for sure. I remember when Miller did it in daredevil, I thought it was a wrong turn, though he did it as well as anyone could. And from what Ive seen of The Hand stuff, even adding a supernatural element isn't enough to prevent the supposedly deadly minions from being cannon fodder, which means zero dramatic tension.
But this gets into another problem, bringing certain kinds of global real-life problems into superhero fantasies and vice versa. I don't think there's ever been a good superhero story that incorporates real-life war (e.g. Thor fighting the "Commies" in Vietnam). Why doesn't Superman solve the climate crisis or even a one-off natural disaster?
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