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Post by berkley on Oct 1, 2023 22:03:49 GMT -5
That said, Toth's conservative politics (described as to the right of Regan), and his detest for modern comics being too liberal and nihilistic, probably would have seen him continue to struggle to find work and perhaps even an audience in the 80s. So, he was a sociopolitical extremist if he was to the right of Regan. For a man who witnessed significant social change in the kind of people and stories being told in comics, you'd think he would have found another use for his abilities (e.g., advertising, political campaign conceptual artist, etc.) where he would not be so triggered by the business (on the creative side) not being trapped in the 40s or 50s.
Maybe he should have pulled a Ditko and started producing his own independent comics espousing his psycho sociopolitical beliefs. But it seems that he wasn't enough of an all-round creator to do something like that. He probably needed to find a writing partner who was compatible with him personally and politically, but there probably weren't many around.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 1, 2023 22:58:36 GMT -5
Toth had a habit of severing relationships over the smallest details. He had a close personal friend named Bob Foster, who was basically like Toth's version of Mark Evanier. They were tight for about a decade until one day Foster made a casual joke about communism. Toth snapped, kicked him out of his house, and told him he'd beat the shit out of him if he ever saw him again. Ten years later, Foster spotted Toth at the hotel during the San Diego Comic Con. He approached Toth to try to make amends, but Toth went into a frenzy and tried to attack Foster. Sounds like a combination of Alan Moore and Harlan Ellison. You have to remember that most of the comic book greats from that era had a lot of hatred and resentment towards the industry and didn't think they were being paid fairly for their work. Many of them loathed their peers and were jealous of any success they had. That's part of what made Kirby special. He dealt with adversity in the comic book industry by working harder and producing more work, and he never had bad feelings towards his peers to the extent of the hatred that Gil Kane and Carmine Infantino had for one another. Kirby seems like quite the unique combination of giant, uncontainable comic-book imagination and down-to-earth, regular guy in all other ways. It's shameful, reading the stories about some of his colleagues' behavior toward him and his work when he returned to Marvel and took over Captain America (a run which I've just finished reading for the first time). I wonder if his military service helped him compartmentalize. Kirby grew up in Hell's Kitchen, in poverty and was able to leave there on his talent, as an artist. By the time he was a young man, he was supporting his family. he and Joe Simon knew their worth and had faith in comics. Kirby grew up fast. Some of his contemporaries didn't, especially the generation that followed, that was running things when he returned to Marvel. Jack had co-owned his own company, though the 50s hysteria did it in relatively quickly. Jack was forced to eat crow to survive; but, he also knew his value and made sure he earned enough to give his family a better life. Jack's family said he suffered from two recurring nightmares: inability to produce work and the war. Kirby had seen too much of real life to get bogged down in office politics, though he couldn't escape their effect on his work. he focused on his job and his family. I wouldn't say military life helped him compartmentalize; I'd say life experience and trying to get on with life after living through horror. It is a story you hear repeated with combat veterans. They just tried to get on with life, rarely speaking about what they had done in the war, other than vague, general terms. I doubt any editor could shake a man who had stared down and enemy rifle and shot the man holding it. Here, he talks a little about his war experiences..... Kirby was medivaced out, with frostbite/trenchfoot, which probably saved his life. As it was, he came close to losing toes or a foot,. Some jumped up little editor had no clue. Kirby just did his job, lamented privately what they were doing to his books, and continued to find new ideas. Jack was always looking forward, while they just wanted him to rehash the past. Jack lived the past, he wanted to see the future. A lot of other people in comics had come from cushier lives, or had been safe.
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Post by commond on Oct 2, 2023 6:42:21 GMT -5
So, he was a sociopolitical extremist if he was to the right of Regan. For a man who witnessed significant social change in the kind of people and stories being told in comics, you'd think he would have found another use for his abilities (e.g., advertising, political campaign conceptual artist, etc.) where he would not be so triggered by the business (on the creative side) not being trapped in the 40s or 50s.
Maybe he should have pulled a Ditko and started producing his own independent comics espousing his psycho sociopolitical beliefs. But it seems that he wasn't enough of an all-round creator to do something like that. He probably needed to find a writing partner who was compatible with him personally and politically, but there probably weren't many around.
I think Toth would have continued to produce pulp adventure stories. I read an interview from the late 60s where he's bemoaning the rise of the American New Wave cinema directors. He criticizes them for spotlighting society's ills without offering any solutions.
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 2, 2023 12:50:20 GMT -5
Just for fun, I checked Toth's Marvel credits in the GCD. In the mid-fifties he did half-a-dozen romance stories and two westerns, all 4-7 pages each. Then in 1965 he wrote and drew a 5-page western story in Rawhide Kid #46 and his only superhero work, pencilling X-Men #12, "The Origin of Professor X" and his brother the Juggernaut, over Kirby layouts, with Colletta inking. I think I've read that he didn't like the experience or the result, so that was it for Toth at Marvel until 1978's Hanna-Barbera TV Stars #3, where he did the cover and a 5-page Space Ghost story. After that he did no stories, just standalone illustrations - 10 for Savage Sword of Conan in the 80s, including a two-pager; three covers for Marvel's Zorro series in 1991, and one in Akira #38 in 1995.
As a kid I bought X-Men #12 and loved it. I also bought his Atom & Flash teamup in Brave & Bold #53, which I thought was one of the best DC comics I had, although the characters seemed a little off. I knew there was something about that issue that was different from the other DCs I had.
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Post by tarkintino on Oct 2, 2023 14:47:12 GMT -5
Maybe he should have pulled a Ditko and started producing his own independent comics espousing his psycho sociopolitical beliefs. But it seems that he wasn't enough of an all-round creator to do something like that. He probably needed to find a writing partner who was compatible with him personally and politically, but there probably weren't many around.
I think Toth would have continued to produce pulp adventure stories. I read an interview from the late 60s where he's bemoaning the rise of the American New Wave cinema directors. He criticizes them for spotlighting society's ills without offering any solutions. How could Toth have been so clinically naive to believe society's ills always have solutions? His late 60s statement seemed to suggest a belief that the most base, ancient societal ills / evils (i.e. racism, despotism, sexual abuse, etc.) could be brought to an end when the stated problems--at their root--are a part of human nature, no matter how uncomfortable it is for some to admit that.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 2, 2023 18:25:20 GMT -5
The impression I get was that Toth was the John Byrne prototype.
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Post by commond on Oct 2, 2023 19:32:01 GMT -5
His daughter did say that he made peace with people in the final year of his life and was touched by the outpouring of support and admiration he received as news of his declining health was made public.
There were also artists, such as Steve Rude, who used Toth's scathing critiques as a tool to become better cartoonists.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 2, 2023 19:51:15 GMT -5
His daughter did say that he made peace with people in the final year of his life and was touched by the outpouring of support and admiration he received as news of his declining health was made public. There were also artists, such as Steve Rude, who used Toth's scathing critiques as a tool to become better cartoonists. That’s good. I heard that Neal Adams was quite rough when critiquing young artists. It breaks some people, and others worked to prove him wrong.
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Post by kirby101 on Oct 2, 2023 20:03:36 GMT -5
But Adamscalso mentored a lot of young artists. When he died the outpouring of those that felt the owed their careers to him was quite large.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 2, 2023 20:54:09 GMT -5
Sometimes, people can't take blunt criticism; but, it is often more honest.
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