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Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 17, 2023 12:41:11 GMT -5
LOL. While I agree with you on his political views, I do really like Fables, and I would love to see it go on somewhere else, so I guess I'm rooting against DC. I suspect it's a tempest in a teapot though... I don't think there's a huge market out there for publishing Fables fan fiction, and I can't imagine a popular mainstream creator deciding to go up again DC's legal team to publish something. In the end, it's probably just Willingham getting himself in the news with a useless grand jesture. I'll admit to being a bit puzzled. The concept of taking fairy tales and growing them up and having connected stories can't be original to Willingham. Didn't ABC have a show a few years back called " Once upon a time" that was the same type of story ? And Slam_Bradley , surely you're not saying what DC is doing is justified? You might hate both sides but it appears that they are robbing and cheating Willingham. Boy, am I tired of seeing the sad story of a bigger entity using an army of lawyers on you until you run out of money to win a case. According to Willingham, that show started out as 'Fables: the TV show' and then ABC decided they could make their own version without paying him.. after he came in and did some consulting. I'm not sure what the truth there actually is, of course. I'm assuming he's talking about his specific versions of the characters.. Bigby Wolf, his Snow White, and their children.. secret agent Cinderella, etc.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 17, 2023 19:23:27 GMT -5
I'll admit to being a bit puzzled. The concept of taking fairy tales and growing them up and having connected stories can't be original to Willingham. Didn't ABC have a show a few years back called " Once upon a time" that was the same type of story ? And Slam_Bradley , surely you're not saying what DC is doing is justified? You might hate both sides but it appears that they are robbing and cheating Willingham. Boy, am I tired of seeing the sad story of a bigger entity using an army of lawyers on you until you run out of money to win a case. According to Willingham, that show started out as 'Fables: the TV show' and then ABC decided they could make their own version without paying him.. after he came in and did some consulting. I'm not sure what the truth there actually is, of course. I'm assuming he's talking about his specific versions of the characters.. Bigby Wolf, his Snow White, and their children.. secret agent Cinderella, etc. Yeah; but, since the characters come from public domain folk tales and there has been similar usage of said characters (the Wolf as a private eye/cop, etc) Willingham is likely going to have a hard time selling the idea that his work was that unique and original, in the face of a copycat. I can cite Warner Bros cartoons, Stan Freberg comedy pieces, other tv, etc that used very similar versions of said characters, which is why I never got that deep into Fables, when it debuted (plus Willingham's previous work had never done much for me). By a similar token, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen isn't exactly something that Moore can really claim as his own, as he is using public domain figures and pastiches throughout. His actual stories and depictions of those characters, yes, but not really the concept. As it is, Phillip Jose Farmer and Michael Moorcock were both doing that sort of thing long before Moore; just not in the manner he did it. So, even though he and Kevin O'Neil's estate own that property. pretty much anyone can do the same thing, with the same characters even and just call it The Association of Amazing Adventurers and rip it off, whole cloth, provided they don't do a word for word, image for image copy. When you are building your thing out of already public domain material, rather than creating it out of whole cloth, you are already in somewhat murky territory, if you get into a dispute with a collaborator or publisher. If Moore tried to litigate the Watchmen issue, I suspect a sticking point (aside from the wording of the contract) would be the fact that it started out as a project to use the newly acquired Charlton Action Heroes. The Watchmen variation only came after DC rejected the proposal as too finite and Moore retooled it with pastiches of the Charlton heroes. That point alone could provide ammo for DC to claim Watchmen was derived from characters they now owned and they commissioned the work. Then, you have a lot of back and forth about whether the Watchmen characters are unique enough to be considered new. These fights are usually legal minefields and rarely cut and dried. I don't like seeing corporations getting away with this kind of stuff; but, it happens too often because the creator involved lets ego trump good sense and they sign deals that set up this kind of thing, rather than try to negotiate better and clearer terms. Regardless, it is all part of a trend of corporations taking more and more rights for themselves at the expense of individuals and the only real way to fight it is to do something about government that favors corporate entities over citizens. You need to replace the lawmakers and administrators with people who will uphold the rights of the individual citizens first, and not nebulous entities because of economic power. It's a Quixotic Crusade, to be sure, against some pretty friggin' big windmills! This is the heart and soul of the Creators Rights movement of the late 80s that was largely ignored by the talent working in the industry, at a time when they had the collective power to force some change if they had really worked together. There were enough alternative companies emerging that could have given them more leverage; but, too many top people were happy to make a bit more than stand up and fight for a lot more. That's a common story in a lot a labor battles.
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Post by tonebone on Sept 18, 2023 9:10:12 GMT -5
According to Willingham, that show started out as 'Fables: the TV show' and then ABC decided they could make their own version without paying him.. after he came in and did some consulting. I'm not sure what the truth there actually is, of course. I'm assuming he's talking about his specific versions of the characters.. Bigby Wolf, his Snow White, and their children.. secret agent Cinderella, etc. Yeah; but, since the characters come from public domain folk tales and there has been similar usage of said characters (the Wolf as a private eye/cop, etc) Willingham is likely going to have a hard time selling the idea that his work was that unique and original, in the face of a copycat. I can cite Warner Bros cartoons, Stan Freberg comedy pieces, other tv, etc that used very similar versions of said characters, which is why I never got that deep into Fables, when it debuted (plus Willingham's previous work had never done much for me). By a similar token, The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen isn't exactly something that Moore can really claim as his own, as he is using public domain figures and pastiches throughout. His actual stories and depictions of those characters, yes, but not really the concept. As it is, Phillip Jose Farmer and Michael Moorcock were both doing that sort of thing long before Moore; just not in the manner he did it. So, even though he and Kevin O'Neil's estate own that property. pretty much anyone can do the same thing, with the same characters even and just call it The Association of Amazing Adventurers and rip it off, whole cloth, provided they don't do a word for word, image for image copy. When you are building your thing out of already public domain material, rather than creating it out of whole cloth, you are already in somewhat murky territory, if you get into a dispute with a collaborator or publisher. If Moore tried to litigate the Watchmen issue, I suspect a sticking point (aside from the wording of the contract) would be the fact that it started out as a project to use the newly acquired Charlton Action Heroes. The Watchmen variation only came after DC rejected the proposal as too finite and Moore retooled it with pastiches of the Charlton heroes. That point alone could provide ammo for DC to claim Watchmen was derived from characters they now owned and they commissioned the work. Then, you have a lot of back and forth about whether the Watchmen characters are unique enough to be considered new. These fights are usually legal minefields and rarely cut and dried. I don't like seeing corporations getting away with this kind of stuff; but, it happens too often because the creator involved lets ego trump good sense and they sign deals that set up this kind of thing, rather than try to negotiate better and clearer terms. Regardless, it is all part of a trend of corporations taking more and more rights for themselves at the expense of individuals and the only real way to fight it is to do something about government that favors corporate entities over citizens. You need to replace the lawmakers and administrators with people who will uphold the rights of the individual citizens first, and not nebulous entities because of economic power. It's a Quixotic Crusade, to be sure, against some pretty friggin' big windmills! This is the heart and soul of the Creators Rights movement of the late 80s that was largely ignored by the talent working in the industry, at a time when they had the collective power to force some change if they had really worked together. There were enough alternative companies emerging that could have given them more leverage; but, too many top people were happy to make a bit more than stand up and fight for a lot more. That's a common story in a lot a labor battles. I think Disney would disagree with you on a lot of this, particularly on your points about League of Extraordinary Gentlemen... I defy you to even come close to encroaching on DISNEY's Alladin, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and the countless other public domain characters they have "done their version of". As a matter of fact, I defy you to make a movie called "Snow White" or "Sleeping Beauty", etc. and see how fast their lawyers claim trademark infringement. Concerning your thoughts on Moore's Watchmen... I think the fact that he created new analogues for the Charlton characters STRENTHENS his claim to ownership, not weakens it. Honestly, tho, the bottom line is he who wins is he who greases the palms of the politicians. Disney OWNS copyright law in the US, and maybe the world. They wrote it, and paid for it, and will win in every court case. I don't know if HBO/WB has the same clout, but they do have money. DC in particular, not so much. I personally think what Willingham did was sort of brilliant. He's sick of dealing with DC, so he just created a legal nightmare for them, that will, at minimum, cause them to constantly file cease and desist lawsuits and then have to back them up in court. Best case for him is if it becomes too much of a hassle, they will settle with him for what he feels he is owed, and wash their hands of it all. DC is not exactly made of money, right now.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 18, 2023 9:27:23 GMT -5
Not to disagree with most of what you said tonebone, but titles are not copyrighted. There was Snow White and the Huntsman from Universal, Pinocchio from various studios, other Little Mermaid and Alladin movies. You cannot use their take on the characters, but the characters and stories in public domain are fair game.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 18, 2023 17:16:28 GMT -5
I can’t wait until Superman becomes public domain in a few years.
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Post by Chris on Sept 18, 2023 18:53:22 GMT -5
Yeah; but, since the characters come from public domain folk tales and there has been similar usage of said characters (the Wolf as a private eye/cop, etc) Willingham is likely going to have a hard time selling the idea that his work was that unique and original, in the face of a copycat. I can cite Warner Bros cartoons, Stan Freberg comedy pieces, other tv, etc that used very similar versions of said characters, which is why I never got that deep into Fables, when it debuted (plus Willingham's previous work had never done much for me). When you are building your thing out of already public domain material, rather than creating it out of whole cloth, you are already in somewhat murky territory, if you get into a dispute with a collaborator or publisher. I'm not a lawyer, so I could be completely wrong here, but I have to wonder about the fact that Fables was built on public domain characters, regardless of how those characters were later developed and expanded upon in new ways. Since they were public domain to begin with, I don't think it would do anything to strengthen Willingham's claim to ownership, but by the same token, it might reinforce his declaration that Fables is now in the public domain, and weaken DC's arguments. Just a random thought. I personally think what Willingham did was sort of brilliant. He's sick of dealing with DC, so he just created a legal nightmare for them, that will, at minimum, cause them to constantly file cease and desist lawsuits and then have to back them up in court. This might very well happen, and I find it hilarious.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,166
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Post by Confessor on Sept 19, 2023 5:52:00 GMT -5
I can’t wait until Superman becomes public domain in a few years. I'm pretty sure this will never be allowed to happen.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 19, 2023 6:09:16 GMT -5
I can’t wait until Superman becomes public domain in a few years. I'm pretty sure this will never be allowed to happen. Unless the copyright laws are changes at the last minute, I'm planning to do my own Superman book.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,166
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Post by Confessor on Sept 19, 2023 6:27:56 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this will never be allowed to happen. Unless the copyright laws are changes at the last minute, I'm planning to do my own Superman book. So is Slam_Bradley I hear.
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Post by MDG on Sept 19, 2023 9:41:37 GMT -5
Unless the copyright laws are changes at the last minute, I'm planning to do my own Superman book. So is Slam_Bradley I hear. I'd buy it!
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Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 19, 2023 18:03:35 GMT -5
I can’t wait until Superman becomes public domain in a few years. I'm pretty sure this will never be allowed to happen. I would have said the same, but Disney isn't doing any lobbying to protect Mickey Mouse so I don't see WB going it alone and trying to pressure congress to "save" Superman. And I think it's probably a good business move, it would take a lot of money to buy off enough votes to extend the rights meanwhile I don't see derivative works really eating too much of the pie. I mean, sure anybody could go out and make their own Superman or Mickey Mouse comics, cartoons, movies or merchandise but the two are so associated with their respective brands that if given the choice most customers are going to go with the official versions over joe schmoe's version. Winnie the Pooh was kind of a test bubble for this, anyone can make Winnie the Pooh movies or merch now ... and what resulted was Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey, which no one was going to confuse for the cuddly cartoon bear and the schlocky b-movie did nothing to put a dent in sales of Pooh bear stuffed animals and various other products as Disney still raked in around five billion bucks this year from the little bear and his buddies.
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Post by Icctrombone on Sept 19, 2023 18:49:41 GMT -5
The funny part is , Superman like most DC books are having a bad time selling. Good luck slam !
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Post by tonebone on Sept 26, 2023 8:27:32 GMT -5
The funny part is , Superman like most DC books are having a bad time selling. Good luck slam ! I'm quite sure Slam (or anyone for that matter) could do better comics than what DC is producing today.
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Post by kirby101 on Sept 26, 2023 9:23:47 GMT -5
Mark Evanier wrote on his blog today about DC management.
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Post by rberman on Sept 26, 2023 12:37:02 GMT -5
Mark Evanier wrote on his blog today about DC management. Discovery should just get it over with, and sell DC to Disney. It's going to happen eventually anyway.
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